Hey Mr. Diesel, Suck on this!

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:51 pm

If the Jeep Liberty hadn't been offered with a CRD,I still to this day wouldn't know that the Jeep Liberty existed.

If I had a gazing ball in 06...........I still to this day wouldn't know that the Jeep Liberty existed.

:ALONE:

InCommando · **Posted:** Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:20 pm

linewarbr wrote:

Maybe that's why my used one came in at $13K with 24,000 miles on it when I got it in Sept of 2008.

It amazes me how some people will write anything in order to prove their point.

:POPCORN:

Prediction: thread gets locked before 3 pages. . . . the over/ under is half a page. . .

Wow, your PO took quite a bath on that, didn't he? Don't you ever wonder why things get sold at fire sale prices? Or did you get it from someone you know?

Do you happen to have your window sticker to show what the CRD option cost, with all of the required equipment, new and can you guesstimate what the various tune/mods deemed mandatory would dollar-wiserun? Maybe the sticker on your actual CRD to show the amount of money the PO actually lost on that in 2 years? That would answer some of the questions, I think.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:35 pm

linewarbr wrote:

Maybe that's why my used one came in at $13K with 24,000 miles on it when I got it in Sept of 2008.

I only paid $17,000,brand new with 3 miles on the ODO and it's a Limited,About $7000-$8000 less then the cheapest "NEW" CRD I've seen in either '05 or '06.Then add the $2000-$5000 for parts to make it actually run,well that's alot of gas money that you wasted on a CRD.

tonycrd · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:18 am

InCommando wrote:

The CRD was a cute little experiment....

What experiment IC...JEEP offered diesel engines for their exports for as long as I can remember. We have diesel XJ's.

IMO you (and others) are only showing how shortsighted people are when it comes to dieselfuel and small CU engines. In my country 85% of the total driving around...is a diesel.

tjkj2002 wrote:

Then add the $2000-$5000 for parts to make it actually run,well that's alot of gas money that you wasted on a CRD.

If the US had the same high quality diesel as the rest of the world (!!) the CRD needs no mods whatsoever to run..and keep running.

And this is an interesting discussion, let's try to keep it unlocked. Thanks.

InCommando · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:44 am

Tony, we are admittedly referring the the KJ's yittle Italian CRD, and not to every diesel Jeep engine referred to as a CRD, such as the Mercedes-sourced v6 (bluetech?) found in other products. The renualt sourced I4 jeep diesel of the mid '80's was also a turd here no matter what its rep in Europe may have been

We are admittedly referring to the US in particular where the 2.8 VM ( or whatever) CRD KJ was nothing but a cute little experiment, moving 10,000-12,000 copies and, as mentioned, making up 1 percent of KJ sale: this the "little" part.

A dip through the CRD sections shows a layman the myriad of issues these engines had here, and I weep for the eventual owners stuck with these orphans. US diesel quality and the "what if" if the fuel standards were altered or the emissions standards were changed is a huge " so what" as they are what they are: jeep's minimal export market and requirements around the world are non-issues. Frankly, there are only a couple of regular European posters and a handful of others. I would assume that non-domestic CRD posters count for some factor well below 1% of the total. You might as well lament the fact that all KJ's aren't RH drive: it just does not matter to 99% of the people here. Discussing SEAT products in the US would be about as relevant to the rest of us here.

This is not Europe: it never will be. That is not right or wrong, it just IS. If the world ever becomes homogenized, I think your point will be very valid: until it does I just don't see the point of discussing European standards or anything else as they are non-issues in the US at this point. Barring a time machine, it certainly will not alter the truth of the experiement with the 2.8 crd from 5 or 6 years ago.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:45 am

I think the bottom line is, anyone who hasn't actually owned both gas and diesel needs to be banned from this thread because you obviously don't have a clue.

:roll:

InCommando · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:00 am

Better that the couple of CRD fanboys posting be relagated to thier own section if they had one...wait, there is one....Kkeep it where most of us do not bother to go and when it is not opened to the regular audience, it is pretty much left alone.

How is you math coming? Have you realized that initial costs & costs of the required mods count as much if not more than fuel costs? What does a "european TC" and HOT tune run, for example? You are still following along after getting snippy about math, but you really should take the time from math 055 to correct your statements. Without that, the half-truth you told is blatent propaganda. Are you afraid the rest of the info will make your math comment stand out as the actual untruthful slam on others that it is? Your silence is deafening, and telling.

Keep in mind that past threads are still there for all to review. Fanboys of all ilk forget the issues with their vehicles: WRX & Evo people ignore that their transaxles implode and are not warrantied. Skyline fanboys ignore that, without launch control, you can't come close to the max performance numbers but activating launch control in the US voids the warranty and, again, leads to grenaded transmissions. You just don't talk about these things in polite company.

changingtime · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:11 am

I have now owned gas and diesel jeeps in the US. I didn't do all the research i should have done early on...and I had to replace the torque converter (which was already replaced once under warranty), do a Tune, and replace the fuel heater element and replace the turbo hoses just to get it to run where it should have been from the factory.

so, $3,000 later...I have a great running vehicle. Would i do it again? not sure at this point but my fuel mileage is incredible (close to 27mpg) and my wife and I were never going to buy another jeep for a primary vehicle. We just had way too many issues with them. So, we thought we would give the Diesel a chance.

to date: after all the mods, i'm super happy with the vehicle. And wow, does it have power.

Note: I see someone said all the engine issues. I have only seen one "poster" with a true engine issue. This engine appears to be very solid. It's everything thing else that I had to fix.

tommudd · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:21 am

Great discussion
Its funny that after driving a large car ( Peterbilt) for several years you would think I would want a Diesel, but I don't here in the US unless I bought a Dodge pickup.

NOW with that being said when I buy the next vehicle in Tanzania I will not even look at a gasser. Diesels are in everything there and they have people who know how to work on them, even along side the road.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:37 am

Right now, diesel is running $2.89 (I paid $2.84 yesterday at Walmart though). Gas is running $2.69. These are local prices.

Using Fuelly.com, we can see that the average MPG for the CRDs is around 24. The average MPG among 3.7L gas KJs is around 18 MPG. That is a 6 MPG difference between the two.

The average U.S. driver logs 1,250 miles monthly.

So... doing the simple math.... diesel fuel would have to be $0.90 PER GALLON MORE than gasoline just to get to the break-even point for the average driver!! It would have to be $1.00 per gallon more than gasoline to start costing you more to drive the diesel! :jester:

It is true that our gas KJ was slightly less expensive in maintenance while we had it. Gas engines with no turbos are a little simpler to maintain. But the fuel economy you get with the CRD, and the power, and the resale value, and the flexibility to run various sources of fuel, and the torque for offroad trails....it all adds up to make for a much nicer vehicle.

I would have never bought a KJ if it wasn't for the diesel option. I've owned two of them now.

The gas one was technically my wife's. :-)r

DynoPax · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:13 pm

InCommando is making some valid points, especially in regard to the maintenance cost of the CRD, which seems to be higher than the 3.7l version. A misinformed or uneducated new owner of a CRD may go from wonder to hatrid if he faces major issues with these vehicles, which I did last year when my CRD spent almost 2 months at the dealer (TG for the extended full-blown warranty! :BANANA:

).

Now, being much more versed and a bit wiser about the whole thing has made things smooth out pretty well. I now fully appreciate the fuel economy (9,0l/100km - 26mpg(US)), though I believe fuel quality & choice in Canada is subpar to what can be found in the US, the ride and 4x4 capacity but mostly, the power when towing. Pulling a 3000lbs trailer and barely feel it is quite impressive, considering the size of vehicle and engine type (4 cyl.)

I admit some investments are required in order to fully appreciate the little beast. Correcting Chrysler long list of shortcut crap installed originally can sum up to a pretty big bill, if all goes awry and wrong. Then again, regular maintenance and good knowledge should make it much easier for the wallet and peace of mind.

I love fiddling around on the mechanics of the Liberty, improve it if possible and enjoy even more. I intend to keep this one for a very long time. To sum up, diesel or gas, the Liberty is a beaut' and fun to have!

AZKJ · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:46 pm

An interesting thread indeed.

I may have missed it, but has anyone sat down and crunched ALL of the numbers?? I would like to see the cost of ownership over 100,000 miles for the 3.7L and the CRD? Include gas/diesel, regular maintenance (forget about tires), the talked about mods for the CRD to keep it running, and the expensive of the timing belt change due at 100,000 miles. Then take into account the fact there are a limited number of mechanics that even know that Jeep offered a diesel Liberty, and even less that have worked on them.

Not being knowledgeable about the CRD and all of it's quirks, I would be very curious to see how the numbers stack up and if CRD ownership is really worth it to the "average" person. :?:

OldSkull · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:00 pm

The question is why you bother with all the trouble to fix a CRD instead of buying a gazer? The answer is "TORQUE" you can beat Diesel engine for towing rig, I got a 17 foots/3000pds camping trailer (ready to go) and I don't need a Dodge Ram 2500 with a big Cummins to do the job. You buy a CRD because they are workhorse small Diesel little monster.

They need aftermarket parts to "Bypass" the new emission law restriction but because they already sold the CRD for long in Europe Chrysler got no excuse for the TC. They are not the only one missing the boat! The way VM motori design the thermostat is one example of "stupid" engineering.

Here on this forum we have lot of great "backyard" engineer and some experts working for us adding water to keep the wheel spinning! Let's say "It's a Jeep Diesel Thing!"

One last thing....If I get a dollar every time someone told me "I wish they put a diesel engine in my Wrangler" I paid my "upgrade" in a year.... :mrgreen:

PS: DYNOPACK I cant find a Provent have you some photo and list of the stuff you use to do your's?

linewarbr · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:54 pm

OldSkull wrote:

PS: DYNOPACK I cant find a Provent have you some photo and list of the stuff you use to do your's?

I'm not Dynopax, but here's an install thread. viewtopic.php?f=98&t=34358
There are several places you can order from, I know of one here in south Louisiana that has good prices and can ship. If you're interested I'll find the old thread with their address and contact info.

OldSkull · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:03 pm

[quote="linewarbr"]
I'm not Dynopax, but here's an install thread....... [quote]

Look is info , he have done a "Homemade version" I whant to know how he do it , I already got my idea to do one but cant figure a good long lasting filter element to fit in

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:16 pm

AZKJ wrote:

An interesting thread indeed.

I may have missed it, but has anyone sat down and crunched ALL of the numbers?? I would like to see the cost of ownership over 100,000 miles for the 3.7L and the CRD? Include gas/diesel, regular maintenance (forget about tires), the talked about mods for the CRD to keep it running, and the expensive of the timing belt change due at 100,000 miles. Then take into account the fact there are a limited number of mechanics that even know that Jeep offered a diesel Liberty, and even less that have worked on them.

Not being knowledgeable about the CRD and all of it's quirks, I would be very curious to see how the numbers stack up and if CRD ownership is really worth it to the "average" person. :?:

Well, using the U.S. averages (that I listed above), just in FUEL ALONE the CRD will save you $2,772 over the gas KJ in 100,000 miles.

So, does the extra maintenance of the CRD cost $3,000 more in that time than the gas version? Not even close. Even with the new TC, and HOT tune, and CAC hoses, and all the stuff I've done to mine....I'm still WAY under that $2,772 figure. And, now I've got a Jeep that will probably go forever and ever on nothing but oil changes.

Sure, it takes a little work to get a CRD to where you want it. But you can crack that nut anyway you want...and the fact still remains that the diesel is a much better option than gas. This is true in ANY vehicle in which diesel is an option.

jeep4life7 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:37 pm

i love my gasser it is simple, but a would sure love to blow black smoke

Big Montana · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:30 pm

jeep4life7 wrote:

i love my gasser it is simple, but a would sure love to blow black smoke

I drove my parents gaser KJ several times and even my dad said he liked the sporty little Jeep. I think it's pointless to discuss this as a better or worse issue.

I have 80k and the only money I spent on my Jeep that I NEEDED to was for the.... oh wait. Nothing. (other than tires and brakes) I did have the torque converter recall at 40k but that was under warranty, but I noticed nothing wrong at that point. I also had an EGR valve and CAC hose replaced under warranty. I need a new thermostat but I'm still getting 24 MPG.

My GDE tune was for fun and the new CAC hoses were probobly not needed yet. I live in Michigan with her tough winters and have owned this Jeep since new. It's fine. It has cost less that my 04 envoy to maintain at 96k and way less than my 02 Stratus that seemed to eat head gaskets. My brother was a trans calibrator at Chrysler before he took the buyout and he spent a few days in their lots reflashing TCUs on all types of cars because of the crap torque converters.

Yeah so Chrysler could have done better with our CRD. They could have done better with most of their cars. The Germans were stripping so much cost out of their cars that they were forcing the engineers to build crap products out of plastic and glue. I remember my brother saying that by the end, the heads wanted $600 saved on every car and my brother's response was you could leave the whole transmission out of the car and still not save that much.

So put your units away, pull up your pants and stop talking about whose is bigger. Regardless of the engine, we all bought over priced cars from a cold cold pool.

InCommando · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:10 pm

LibertyCRD wrote:

Right now, diesel is running $2.89 (I paid $2.84 yesterday at Walmart though). Gas is running $2.69. These are local prices.

Using Fuelly.com, we can see that the average MPG for the CRDs is around 24. The average MPG among 3.7L gas KJs is around 18 MPG. That is a 6 MPG difference between the two.

The average U.S. driver logs 1,250 miles monthly.

So... doing the simple math.... diesel fuel would have to be $0.90 PER GALLON MORE than gasoline just to get to the break-even point for the average driver!! It would have to be $1.00 per gallon more than gasoline to start costing you more to drive the diesel! :jester:

It is true that our gas KJ was slightly less expensive in maintenance while we had it. Gas engines with no turbos are a little simpler to maintain. But the fuel economy you get with the CRD, and the power, and the resale value, and the flexibility to run various sources of fuel, and the torque for offroad trails....it all adds up to make for a much nicer vehicle.

I would have never bought a KJ if it wasn't for the diesel option. I've owned two of them now.

The gas one was technically my wife's. :-)r

STILL ignoring the intitial investment costs, as well!!!! LMAO! Rough couple of days for the CRD; It went from diesel having to be 1.50 more per gallon to being .90 cents more per gallon...heck of a drop in diesel value ( 60 cents a gallon) in less than a week.

If any other vehicle required $3k in mods just to make it acceptable, people would be calling it a lemon or worse. Yes, all fixed up, their torque number is impressive. But jeez...of course, the fact that this little experiment is long over makes it moot, anyway.... I do feel horrible for those 2nd & 3rd owners making an uninformed purchase and winding up with one of these potential money pits. Especially those who didn't get magical purchase prices ( unexplained) well below market value on the used one.

salden77 · **Joined:** Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:42 pm **Posts:** 271

i will never buy another gasser vehicle, idc how much it costs to drive a diesel, the fun factor and sound alone is worth the extra once in a while maintenance headache, everyone calls my KJ a soccer mom vehicle til i turn it on and they hear the turbo spool up and black smoke start pouring, then they change their mind and say wow thats pretty sweet i had no idea, most of the mods you can do to a gasser as far as performance goes cost way too much for the average person to afford getting descent hp or torque gains, all i have to do is buy a $400 dollar MP-8 programmer and i get an extra 50 HP and 100 FT/LBS of torque, good luck trying to get those kind of gains on a gasser with out spending thousands of dollars, and if you know enough about diesel engines the maintenance is not that bad, i take pride in working on my own vehicle, i have never taken a vehicle to the dealership to get worked on.

Hey Mr. Diesel, Suck on this!

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