welder/high voltage question

USAFCOP · **Posted:** Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:49 pm

callaway wrote:

Looks easy enough to make an adapter

Thanks for the info/links guys

Last question...

The dryer cord has 4 wires (white, black, red, ground).
The welder has 3 wires (white, black, ground).

white goes with white, black with black, green with green, but where does red fit in?

You should be able to find 3 wire dryer cords and adapters to use. Most come with diagrams as well. Most importantly, if you do pull the plug out of the wall to confirm that your wires match the wall plug, TURN THE BREAKER OFF first... Trust me it twinges a little :shock:

All depends on your house, I had to re wire my dryer plug before using my adapter because the house plug was not grounded... Found out after tryin to get a new dryer to work... I was glad it was not my wires since it worked at rocklizards...

callaway · **Posted:** Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:33 pm

went out at lunch and $60 later I have all the parts to make my adapter. I'll get started on it tonight :twisted:

callaway · **Posted:** Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:01 pm

Started putting it together and now I have an idea I want to confirm... I've got the male plug (plugs into generator) wired OK but I have 2 hot lines and 1 neutral...

the female plug (that the welder will plug into) has 3 prongs. Hot, Neutral and Ground. Is it as simple as splicing the 2 hots from the generator together to go with the 1 hot for the female plug? (see poor drawing below)

This would make sense (in my mind) as each hot on the generator is 120 (120 + 120 = 240)

in my mind it would also make sense that the larger blade on the welder is the hot line... right?

bugnout · **Posted:** Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:17 pm

Do not connect the two hot wires together, you will basicly be connecting the two phase from your house together and will blow the main breaker

bugnout · **Posted:** Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:20 pm

Let me see if I can find a pin out for your plug, Never seen one like it before

NomadKJ · **Posted:** Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:33 pm

The generator will not carry full load of your welder. You need a 240V/30A circuit. You can how ever use your welder with your generator if you do not run your welder at max output. The plug that came with your welder is a 30A straight blade, two hot and a ground. A dyer outlet has a neutral for controls. The dryer outlet comes in two types; 3 wire (two hot & neutral) the other is a 4 wire (two hot/neutral/ground).

The generator outlet is normally 240V/20A twist-lock unless 5kw +, you will need to match the plug to your receptacle on the generator and you will to match the receptacle to your welder plug. STEP 1, you will need a length of 10-3 or 10-4 SO cord. Wire the following; welder recept (blk/red flat blade, grn round blade) Gen plug; blk/red to the brass screw, grn to grn
screw) Step 2, Very import, You will need to ground your generator to a ground rod (5/8" X 8')

IF UNSURE CALL A LICENSED ELECTRICIAN FOR THIS WORK.

bugnout · **Posted:** Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:49 pm

What he said.

I didn't realize you were connecting it to a generator, thought you were connecting it to your house.

In your house, generally the white wire and the green wire both connect to the metal frame of your circuit breaker panel, Electically the same.

Ok looks like the connector is a NEMA 6-50 250 volt 50 amp connector. round pin is the ground line and each of the other pins is a hot, red and black.

callaway · **Posted:** Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:13 pm

The generator is a 5.5kw and its a 240V/30A twist outlet

I'm using ~14' of 12/4 cord rated for 600V with the correct male plug (L1430P) for the generator outlet...

the cord will go into a box and have a female plug that accepts the male plug on the generator...

When its all done it will look like this...

The female plug is grounded to the metal box. I have some 3/4 conduit buried in the back yard that goes down ~3' into the ground (I used it to hold tiki lights

) so I'll take some 1/2 conduit (or a strip of wire) and attach to the conduit thats in the ground to ground the system when using it.

For what I'm going to do the welder will never be on full load. The most it will see would be 1/4" material but most everything will < 3/16"

callaway · **Posted:** Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:22 pm

bugnout wrote:

Ok looks like the connector is a NEMA 6-50 250 volt 50 amp connector. round pin is the neutral return line and each of the other pins is a hot.

It is a NEMA 6-50 but the box says the round is ground...

Still now... is it ok to do this off the generator...

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:36 pm

Don't do it. What you have drawn is a dead short of the two hot wires. A 240 Volt welder doesn't need a neutral connection at all. You need a ground and two hots. Remove the neutral altogether. Move one of your hots to where you had the neutral.

bugnout · **Posted:** Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:52 pm

Yup,

don't need Generator Nuetral, ground to round G pin as labeled on the box.
two hot leads, black and red, to the flat pins. Do not connect them together!
Ground from generator to a metal stake driven into the ground to give you a solid Earth ground.

The current will flow out of the generator via each of the hot leads each carrying 115 volts at different phases, combined in the load (welder) to 230 volts then back to the generator on the ground wire.

callaway · **Posted:** Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:59 pm

so both ground and neutral to the round pin?

Bob V · **Posted:** Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:13 pm

240 is actually one 120+ and one 120-, that gets the 240 volts. Now this alternating current so as one leg is at 120+ the other is at 120-, all this 60 times a second. just the Ground to the round pin do not use the neutral at all

callaway · **Posted:** Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:16 pm

I think I can handle that

Thanks Much all for helping me out

Rush345 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:17 am

Unfortunately my Dear departed Daddy is no long here. But seeing as he was pulling wire at the age of 8 and Grandpa wired houses throughout Columbus Ohio in over a 20 mile radius in the early 20's . One of his favorite saying were electricity is no problem it's just like water one wire is hot and one is cold so search for some electricians and I'll bet you will find some helpfull advise to your dilema.

NomadKJ · **Posted:** Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:16 pm

You can not use the generator neutral for a ground! There is a difference of potential.

bugnout wrote:

Yup,

Generator Nuetral to round G pin as labeled on the box.
two hot leads, black and red, to the flat pins. Do not connect them together!
Ground from generator to a metal stake driven into the ground to give you a solid Earth ground.

The current will flow out of the generator via each of the hot leads each carrying 115 volts at different phases, combined in the load (welder) to 230 volts then back to the generator on the white wire.

CALLAWAY; YOUR CABLE (12-4) IS NOT BIG ENOUGH (AWG), THE CONTINOUS LOAD RATING IS 16A, YOUR CABLE IS RATED 20A SHORT TERM. YOU NEED 10-4 CABLE CONTINOUS RATING IS 24A THE CABLE IS RATED 30A SHORT TERM.

AS I SAID BEFORE IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE INSTRUCTIONS CALL A LICENSE ELECTRICIAN TO HELP YOU.

YOU CAN DIE FROM THIS, IS SAVING A FEW BUCKS WORTH YOU LIFE?

bugnout · **Posted:** Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:52 pm

I agree completely, that gauge wire is not going to be sufficient for the expected current. I especially agree with the advice to consult an electrician if you are not sure.

NomadKJ

In home wiring, the neutral white wire and green ground sense wire are normally electrically the same and are both electrically connected to the earth ground at the circuit breaker box. The ground sense wire is used by remote breakers (GFCI's) to route excess current back to earth ground in case of a short

I would assume the generator breaker is the same, the neutral return and the earth ground are separated by the breaker at the generator. As you say they are not electrically the same, tying them together would be a bad thing as then the generator would not be able to sense a ground fault and the breaker would not function.

So how do you ground the generator? I would assume you ground it to a metal rod sunk into the ground using the ground terminal and connecting the ground terminal to the return from the load - welder.

NomadKJ · **Posted:** Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:06 am

IT IS NEVER A GOOD IDEA TO USE A NEUTRAL AS A GROUND PATH. YOU CAN ELECTROCUTE YOURSELF AND BURN DOWN YOUR HOUSE. THE GROUND IS THERE TO PROTECT YOU FROM ELECTROCUTION.

A GFCI monitors the amount of current flowing from hot to neutral. If there is any imbalance, it trips the circuit. It is able to sense a mismatch as small as 4 or 5 milliamps, and it can react as quickly as one-thirtieth of a second.

I WILL GIVE YOU THE SAME ADVICE AS I GAVE CALLAWAY "IF UNSURE CALL A LICENSE ELECTRICIAN"

bugnout wrote:

I agree completely, that gauge wire is not going to be sufficient for the expected current. I especially agree with the advice to consult an electrician if you are not sure.

NomadKJ

In home wiring, the neutral white wire and green ground sense wire are normally electrically the same and are both electrically connected to the earth ground at the circuit breaker box. The ground sense wire is used by remote breakers (GFCI's) to determine when a ground fault occurs. Essentially sensing when the neutral leg is no longer at the same potential as ground, which is typical during a short circuit.

I would assume the generator breaker is the same, the neutral return and the earth ground are separated by the breaker at the generator. As you say they are not electrically the same, tying them together would be a bad thing as then the generator would not be able to sense a ground fault and the breaker would not function.

So how do you ground the generator? I would assume you ground it to a metal rod sunk into the ground using the ground terminal and connecting the neutral terminal to the return from the load.

Am I confused? No experience with generators

bugnout · **Posted:** Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:55 am

True True, You are absolutely right about the GFCI's, they are current sensing rather than voltage sensing.

welder/high voltage question

Who is online