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ESP+ ABS vs non ESP-No ABS
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27277		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  KJ-BOL [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  ESP+ ABS vs non ESP-No ABS
KJ - Renegade w/frankie - no ESP or ABS
JK - BB lift - ESP + ABS
Both on 4WD LO

Test grounds: Drive from work to home and on bad snow day on fresh snow....

As far as I'm concerned and as of now I officially hate ESP/ABS - not that it does not work - it actually does and helps a lot. But from what I'm used to I prefer driving the KJ on the snow. I know how to control it and I have driven it on the snow a lot.
Driving the JK is another story..... lots of back end going wild; lots of ESP working all the time - ABS works great but i hate the jerking sensation on the foot - seems like it is about to give out on me. :)
Well.... I think I'll have to get used to it - thanks to whoever invented those two things....
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
The thing you have to learn with ABS is keep your foot into it even when you feel it "acting up"...that is when it is working.
Author:  isutherl [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
This is probably a stupid question, but does the 6speed manual have esp or not?
Author:  scoobysnax [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think this video speaks for itself. 40 secs in is a Liberty and the last one is a new 4dr Wrangler which does really well (if I had to guess it’s probably the Rubicon with the MT tires.) for every day driving I’m sure it’s great. I hope it’s got an off switch b/c something you don’t want it but in the snow, I wish I had ESP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiZjeeMExY4

By the way, did you drive to work all the way in 4L or was that just for the comparison? How bad was the snow?
Author:  onejohny [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
isutherl wrote:
This is probably a stupid question, but does the 6speed manual have esp or not?


Yes it does. It can cause an annoying delay at launch.
Author:  McMoney [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:56 am ]
Post subject: 
The thing i dont like about esp is when you do start slipping and you are a good driver and try to correct the slide the esp takes over and you are now turning the wrong way. I would like to just put my faith in the system but i have driven on many bad roads and i know how to drive on them. So i have a built in rection when something happens. It does not help me but i can see how many others would be helped by this.
If you watch the jeep in the last run the person just kept turning making the skid worse. :roll:
Author:  tommudd [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Just one more thing that they are forcing us to buy , thinking that most people dont know how to drive (which is partly correct) but for those of us who do its annoying. I hope I never have a vehicle that I buy that has it. Yes I have driven some with it and didnt like it, takes the control from the driver in some/ most instances.
Author:  Jeepjeepster [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
scoobysnax wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiZjeeMExY4


They need to find someone that knows how to drive before making a video like that. :shock: :roll:
Author:  scoobysnax [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
I’d first like to state that I’ve never driven anything with ESP so take all of this with a grain of salt. The closest thing I’ve used is traction control on a front wheel drive Mercury Sable which is not the same at all.

To me the concept of automatically applying brakes to individual wheels and/or power to others within factions of a second is amazing. If the ESP is working faster than you it’s best to just trust it. It’s probably more of a life saver in emergency maneuvers. Like when a deer jumps out or you’re on the highway and big rig in front of you looses a giant pipe off the back (we’ve all seen the commercial) or more likely, you’re behind a truck and try to pass him on the right (b/c he’s in the left lane) only to find out there is a broken down car in the right lane and you have to serve back to the left to avoid slamming onto him. If you make it out of that one you say, oh! so that’s why the truck was driving so slow in the left lane.

I’m a big proponent of finding an open place with snow on it (closed road, parking lot, frozen lake etc) where you get your car out of control so you learn how it reacts in certain situations and figure out how to get out of them. First just have fun with it and then after you have a little feel, trying applying that fun to real world stuff. In a snowy parking lot (make sure it doesn’t have the concrete bumpers!) it’s usually only large enough to get your speed up to maybe 30 before you run out of room. However, if you have a frozen lake with some snow on it try driving 45-55 mph in a straight line. Focus on a fixed point in front of you and when you get to it tell yourself you can’t hit the spot 30 feet past it that is 15 wide (it helps if you have cones or small boxes or something.) It’s very hard to quickly serve to the left, go straight and then have to serve back to the right.

Anyway, that’s just my two cents. On my parents car (the sable) you can shut of the traction control but it will automatically come back on when you go over 30mph. To me that’s fine. I hope you can take the ESP off on the Jeeps b/c if not how are you going to have any fun when you’re off road?
Author:  scoobysnax [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
I’d first like to state that I’ve never driven anything with ESP so take all of this with a grain of salt. The closest thing I’ve used is traction control on a front wheel drive Mercury Sable which is not the same at all.

To me the concept of automatically applying brakes to individual wheels and/or power to others within factions of a second is amazing. If the ESP is working faster than you it’s best to just trust it. It’s probably more of a life saver in emergency maneuvers. Like when a deer jumps out or you’re on the highway and big rig in front of you looses a giant pipe off the back (we’ve all seen the commercial) or more likely, you’re behind a truck and try to pass him on the right (b/c he’s in the left lane) only to find out there is a broken down car in the right lane and you have to serve back to the left to avoid slamming onto him. If you make it out of that one you say, oh! so that’s why the truck was driving so slow in the left lane. :oops:

I’m a big proponent of finding an open place with snow on it (closed road, parking lot, frozen lake etc) where you get your car out of control so you learn how it reacts in certain situations and figure out how to get out of them. First just have fun with it and then after you have a little feel, trying applying that fun to real world stuff. In a snowy parking lot (make sure it doesn’t have the concrete bumpers!) it’s usually only large enough to get your speed up to maybe 30 before you run out of room. However, if you have a frozen lake with some snow on it try driving 45-55 mph in a straight line. Focus on a fixed point in front of you and when you get to it tell yourself you can’t hit the spot 30 feet past it that is 15 wide (it helps if you have cones or small boxes or something.) It’s very hard to quickly serve to the left, go straight and then have to serve back to the right.

Anyway, that’s just my two cents. On my parents car (the sable) you can shut of the traction control but it will automatically come back on when you go over 30mph. To me that’s fine. I hope you can take the ESP off on the Jeeps b/c if not how are you going to have any fun when you’re off road?
Author:  KJ-BOL [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
McMoney wrote:
The thing i dont like about esp is when you do start slipping and you are a good driver and try to correct the slide the esp takes over and you are now turning the wrong way. I would like to just put my faith in the system but i have driven on many bad roads and i know how to drive on them. So i have a built in rection when something happens. It does not help me but i can see how many others would be helped by this.
If you watch the jeep in the last run the person just kept turning making the skid worse. :roll:

Exactly my situation
Author:  KJ-BOL [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
scoobysnax wrote:
By the way, did you drive to work all the way in 4L or was that just for the comparison? How bad was the snow?


I think I'm frigging confused here.... I put it in 4wd part time only - both exactly the same - I did not drive them on full 4wd. :)
Snow was about inch or inch.5
Author:  dirtykj [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
scoobysnax wrote:
I think this video speaks for itself.


I agree with some of the comments --- this is a dramatization. You notice the drivers of the "no ESP" vehicles did not countersteer. Maybe in one or two vehicle at the very late stage in the game was any minor amount of countersteer applied.

Having said that, it's not to say that there is no benefit to ESP.
Author:  isutherl [ Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Yes it does. It can cause an annoying delay at launch.


I think I have felt it in 2nd gear mostly when accelerating around hard turns. By the way I would not want to drive without ABS, I used to drive a 94 Wrangler and Had the brakes lock up a few times and it was pretty scary.
Author:  bugnout [ Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
isutherl wrote:
Quote:
Yes it does. It can cause an annoying delay at launch.


I think I have felt it in 2nd gear mostly when accelerating around hard turns. By the way I would not want to drive without ABS, I used to drive a 94 Wrangler and Had the brakes lock up a few times and it was pretty scary.


I guess we are getting to the point where all cars come with ABS. pretty soon no one will remember how to drive in snow and rain without it. It took me quite a while to trust the ABS, but I like it now, I consider it a significant improvement in technology.

Not so sure about ESP yet, I don't have a vehicle that has it, but from what I've read its similiar to ABS, in that you have to relearn what to do in a low traction situation. If you learn to drive with ESP no problem, but if you have been driving for awhile, your going to have to put your vehicle into these situations to figure out how its going to handle. Not sure I want to. :D
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