NYTimes: N.Y. gov wants drivers to fill up with ethanol/BioD

papercut · **Joined:** Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:02 pm **Posts:** 16

Thought y'all might be interested in this New York Times article that's reprinted on Cnet's website.

N.Y. governor wants drivers to fill up with ethanol or biodiesel
http://news.com.com/N.Y.+governor+wants ... 22954.html

Edited to fit "BioD" into the thread subject.

QuietOutdoorsman · **Posted:** Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:51 pm

Just before christmas I watched a program on either Discovery or The History channel on Brazil and their ethanol fuel program. In the early 80's, after being hit with the same oil embargo as the US in the mid 70's, Brazil passed a law requiring ethanol fuel to be sold at all gas stations. They now produce enough ethanol, almost all from sugar cane, that combined with their domestic oil production they have almost no need for importing oil. Auto makers now produce cars that can sense the type of fuel in the tank and electronically retune the engine so it can run most efficient on it. You would get slightly lower mpg, but when the fuel costs half as much (as was the case in Brazil when the program was filmed) i'm not about to care. Ethanol does have the downside of producing more NO and O3 than gasoline, but it produces VERY LITTLE carbon. The CO and CO2 produced from refining and burning ethanol is basically equivalent to that produced by the plant naturally decaying in the field.

GM and others manufacture cars in Brazil that take full advantage of being able to run on multiple fuel types (gasoline, gas + ethanol mix, 100% ethanol). Ethanol is stable in liquid form, so you don't have to have tanks of compressed gas like hydrogen. There are NO technological hurdles to get past to make ethanol work as an automotive fuel today! PLUS, it's a renewable resource when you produce it from corn or sugar cane or soybeans or any of the other plants we have an abundance of.

papercut · **Joined:** Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:02 pm **Posts:** 16

I have to wonder about the wisdom of pure 100% ethanol. Wouldn't there be a problem with people siphoning off fuel from people's cars just to get drunk? :shock:

ManicMechanicJoe · **Posted:** Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:16 pm

If your vehicle wasn't designed for it, dont use it. I don't think Jeep sells an E85 Liberty (i could be wrong). Biodiesel is ok for you CRD folk. But Ethanol is very close to being alcohol, it makes the car run hotter and is more corrosive. Even if your Jeep is E85 compliant-I'd only run E85 on the streets and use regular unleaded off road for the lower engine temps alone.

papercut · **Joined:** Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:02 pm **Posts:** 16

AFAIK, nothing under the Dodge or Jeep brands is ethanol-capable. (Not sure about the other stuff under the Chrysler brand.) I posted the article link mainly for the biodiesel bit (although the article is mostly about ethanol).

QuietOutdoorsman · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:21 am

My comments earlier were more to spark some interest and get people asking "Well, why not try that here?" Right off the top of my head I don't know of any gasoline burning vehicle marketed in the US that has the ability to run on E85...so please do NOT go pour a case of everclear into your tank. It would take some modifications to your engine to make it run properly, especially in the fuel injection and electronic sensing side.

On the Biodiesel side....by all means use it if you can find it. There aren't many places producing it and there are not many places selling it, but if you can get it and you have a CRD you can use it right now. You might want to test the different blends....I've heard of 20% to 100% bio blend diesels being available. Also if you get some bad performance on the first try, try a different vendor before giving it up. Regulation on biodiesel isn't as tight as on gasoline and petroleum diesel and so you can still come across some "home brew" biodiesels. Just my opinion, but anything we can do to reduce our dependence on oil (I believe about 60% of oil consumed is imported) is worth trying.

Calvin56 · **Joined:** Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:59 am **Posts:** 345

Most of the Ethanol products out there aren't pure ethanol like our gasoline isn't straight ....whatever... it is supposed to be. At Davis-Monthan Air Force base here in AZ, all our diesels run off of biodiesel. The conversions weren't hard and we haven't had any significant problems. Biggest "problem" we had was that the biodiesel cleaned all the "varnish" left on the inside of our fuel tanks and clogged up some of the filters.

I got to talk to some of the AZ energy people and ethanol looks very promising.

ManicMechanicJoe · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:16 am

I live in Minnesota and we are home to these new agri-fuels. My dad's '02 Suburban is E85 compatible as are many Plymouth, Dodge, Chrysler minivans. Dodge Intrepids, Ford Taurus, Ford Explorers, lots of real common ones. It will say in the manual. The vehicles I just covered are the ones that I can think of, there are a lot more. It isn't advertised anywhere else because no state is as much involved as MN. We have over 100 stations in the state that dispense E85 and lots more with BioDiesel (I used to run my diesel pickup on it, cleaner burning, ran smooter). 10% of every gallon in Minnesota is Ethanol (we support our farmers), thats state law. So yes, lots of vehicles are E85 compatible. The KJ isn't. Our governor got on TV driving his black E85 suburban asking us to buy more of these fuels. I got nothing against E85, in fact I would rather see my money go to the farmer to help our economy over some foreign guy. Since my vehicle wasn't built for it-I wont touch, even though I do 10% of the time.

Calvin56 · **Joined:** Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:59 am **Posts:** 345

PRetty soon it won't bee too much of an issue, they'll probably have additived it to be good for all vehicles, or the gov't will require all cars to run it... Either way, I think that the alternative energy world is pretty interesting.

blackjeep · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:05 pm

ManicMechanicJoe wrote:

If your vehicle wasn't designed for it, dont use it. I don't think Jeep sells an E85 Liberty (i could be wrong). Biodiesel is ok for you CRD folk. But Ethanol is very close to being alcohol, it makes the car run hotter and is more corrosive. Even if your Jeep is E85 compliant-I'd only run E85 on the streets and use regular unleaded off road for the lower engine temps alone.

not true at all. alcohol burns cooler than gas.

here is a good FAQ

http://www.gov.mb.ca/est/energy/ethanol/ethanolfaq.html

papercut · **Joined:** Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:02 pm **Posts:** 16

blackjeep wrote:

not true at all. alcohol burns cooler than gas.

Tastes better, too. :shock:

Troysterr · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:27 pm

Here's an opposing view:
http://www.lubedev.com/smartgas/alcohol.htm

The gist of the article is that adding alcohol to gasoline reduces fuel economy so much that it actually increases polution and gasoline consumption rather than decreasing it.

I don't necessarily endorse that view...I have no training or experience to say who's right...just throwing it out there in case anyone is interested.

It would be great if a trusted, impartial study could be done to set the record straight. So far, every study I've seen has been sponsored by someone with a vested interest in either increasing or decreasing the amount of ethanol used in gasoline.

Taz · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:22 pm

Ethanol has less BTU's (about 20%) per gallon so the fuel mileage will be less. If the vehicle does not have the sensors and computer to add additional fuel to the fuel/air mixture the mixture will be lean which can cause valves to burn and cylinder wall scorching.

NYTimes: N.Y. gov wants drivers to fill up with ethanol/BioD

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