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Manual winching options
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=57752		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Draco [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Manual winching options
Here's what I think are the four best manual option for KJ/KK's and similarly sized vehicles. Maybe someone else knows of others. This won't be news to most of you, but it may be useful to some.

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(1) Hi-Lift jack with off-road kit http://www.hi-lift.com/accessories/off-road-kit.html

Image

Here is a video from Hi-Lift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9mqMTS8C_8

Here is a good resource by Bill Burke about winching with a hi-lift: http://www.bb4wa.com/articles/hilift_jack.html

The pro's are of the Hi-Lift is that the jack is multi-purpose and can be used for other recovery tasks like jacking a wheel up to build the road if you're high-centered.

The con's are that you can only winch a few feet at a time and the 25' or so of Grade 70 3/8" chain you need weighs a lot.

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(2) Tirfor / griphoist winch

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http://tractel.com/us/series.php?id_serie=47
http://www.highgearsales.com/Tirfor21.html?gclid=CP7s_7qV-qUCFQUSbAodR1P9nw
http://www.southern-tool.com/store/wire_rope_grip_pullers.html
http://www.sierraexpeditions.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=153
http://www.expeditionswest.com/equipment/general_equipment/black_rat_winch.htm

There is a 7700 lb version of the Black Rat tirfors, which is the one linked at sierraexpeditions.com.

The actual Griphoists are pretty darned expensive. An appropriate size would be T516 or T532. The Black Rat winches are a lot cheaper.

The pro's of the tirfors are that the cable is continuous and can be as long as you like. 60' or 100' of cable is no problem.

Con's are the cost of the Griphoists, and the fact that they fundamentally work only with heavy cable and not lighter weight synthetic rope.

Here's a great video of a Land Rover being winched with a tirfor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcC49_x_TIw The tirfors appear to be much more popular in Australia and Europe than in the US.

Here is an interesting link on use: http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/Recovery_Tirfor1.htm

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(3) Maasdam Pow'R Puller, one of the heavier versions like the 6000S. That is the 6000 lb rated version.
This is a big come-along (cable puller).

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http://www.torcarr.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15&products_id=228

Here is a video many of you may have seen illustrating use: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-8CI8WBbR0&NR=1

The come-along in the video is way to freaking small in my opinion. (I would call that a "fence stretcher".) But it illustrates the point that even a little winch is better than no winch at all.

Pro's are low cost and light weight.

Con's are limited cable length (12' for the 6000S) for the heavier rated models.

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(4) Wyeth-Scott More Power Puller

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http://www.wyeth-scott.com/models.asp

The 3-ton 3-35-A-SLT model has 35 feet of Amsteel Blue synthetic line and has a pull/drag rating 6 ton.

Here is a video illustrating use. It's not impressive in that the vehicle isn't really stuck, but you get the idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJdwVSOWtbM

Pro's: Low cost, low weight, pretty long line.

Con's: Line isn't as long as possible with a tirfor.

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Of all those options, my favorites are the 7700 lb Black Rat Tuff Pull and the Wyeth-Scott 3-35-A-SLT Power Pull.

p.s., not sure where this topic belongs.
Author:  Lancer [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manual winching options
The ARB Magnum (similar to a Tirfor) can use synthetic up to 9mm (I think) diameter.

Thanks for the review. Powered winches on the front bumper look good, but they are heavy and fairly expensive. Fine if you are going to get into the sort of situations where you are likely to use them a fair bit; a heavy luxury otherwise. Also I always think that they are mostly only good for helping other people; if I get stuck/bogged, I really want to go back out the way I came, not drag myself further in! Just my take on them I hasten to add! I did think about getting one back when I had my TJM bumper fitted, but after thinking about it for quite a while, I came to the conclusion that given my type of usage, that I wasn't likely to ever use it, and I wasn't prepared to pay out £750+ to look cool :D I think a good hand winch - although likely to be hard work, is certainly a better - and more flexible, bet for a lot of people, including me.
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manual winching options
If you ever had to use one of those manual winching items you will think $500 for a WARN M8000 is practically free.What will take you many hours of back breaking labor will take me mere mins with hardly breaking a sweat.

I may not use my $1200(+$300 syn rope) winch but when I do it has been invaluable,didn't buy it for looks either as the ARB bumper hides it anyway.
Author:  Lancer [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Manual winching options
Fair point TJ - the thing is, I wouldn't use one from one end of the year to the next, so for me, it would be a waste of money, whereas the manual - and I appreciate how much sweat is involved (I helped out a mate with his Tirfor once), is a more cost-effective solution. If you offroad more regularly in conditions where a winch can come in handy, then the vehicle-mounted option is best. For what I do, it isn't - it's mostly just weight on the front. I think there's only been one occasion in the last 10 years when I thought I could really use a vehicle winch, and even then, the problem was solved with a jack, a shovel, an axe and 3 hours of bl**dy hard work!
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manual winching options
Lancer wrote:
Fair point TJ - the thing is, I wouldn't use one from one end of the year to the next, so for me, it would be a waste of money, whereas the manual - and I appreciate how much sweat is involved (I helped out a mate with his Tirfor once), is a more cost-effective solution. If you offroad more regularly in conditions where a winch can come in handy, then the vehicle-mounted option is best. For what I do, it isn't - it's mostly just weight on the front. I think there's only been one occasion in the last 10 years when I thought I could really use a vehicle winch, and even then, the problem was solved with a jack, a shovel, an axe and 3 hours of bl**dy hard work!

I understand that but some of those manual winches cost more then a WARN M8000.
Author:  zammer [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manual winching options
Good thread Draco, thanks for the links ( this board needs a few appreciation smileys )
Author:  Draco [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manual winching options
Lancer wrote:
The ARB Magnum (similar to a Tirfor) can use synthetic up to 9mm (I think) diameter.


Thanks for pointing that out! Here are some pointers to details:

Image

http://store.arbusa.com/Magnum-Hand-Winch-Rope-and-Reeler-Only-MHWRR-P3610.aspx

I haven't been able to find any evidence that the Magnum can be used with synthetic rope, though. I'll have to take your word that it can.

tjkj2002 wrote:
If you ever had to use one of those manual winching items you will think $500 for a WARN M8000 is practically free.What will take you many hours of back breaking labor will take me mere mins with hardly breaking a sweat.


I agree! I'm not saying that a manual winch is a replacement for an electric or hydraulic winch just like a ratcheting socket wrench is not a replacement for an air impact wrench. They both have their place.

For me, the ideal recovery setup would be something like (1) electric winch on the front bumper for serious winching, (2) lightweight manual winch like the Power Puller with synthetic line for backup, rear recovery, helping others, and clearing trails, and (3) 48" hi-lift for lifting a wheel when you're high-centered.

Currently all I have is a 60" Hi-Lift with off-road kit, 3/8" binder chain, tree straps, etc. It would suck if I ever had to use it, but at least it's there. I haven't added an electric winch yet mainly because of the cost of the winch bumper and not the cost of the winch itself. I think I'll be able to save enough pennies to put on a winch bumper and winch around mid 2011. You've all sold me that the Warn M8000 is a great buy, but I'm also thinking of another one to support a relatively local business. I won't say which one or someone will rag on what a POS it is. Besides cost, before I regeared I was also concerned about the weight of a winch bumper and winch.

That said, I'm also pretty interested in the SC Rockstar bumper, which is set up for a receiver hitch winch only. If I go that route then I might save the electric winch for the next Jeep, and buy a good manual one for this one.

I wish I had known about some of the other options years ago. Rather than the 60" Hi-Lift with off-road kit I would probably opt for a 48" Hi-Lift and Power Puller with synthetic line.

A manual winch is useful for clearning trails (tree is blocking the road) and some situations helping others. Sometime I need to tell the story about "The day we met the guy in tasseled penny loafers and the one-day-old, 2WD, 3/4-ton Ford Econoline service van, high centered and with trashed rocker panels by the Devil's Punchbowl on the Schofield Pass road in CO". We could have used a manual winch that day!
Author:  Lancer [ Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manual winching options
tjkj2002 wrote:
Lancer wrote:
Fair point TJ - the thing is, I wouldn't use one from one end of the year to the next, so for me, it would be a waste of money, whereas the manual - and I appreciate how much sweat is involved (I helped out a mate with his Tirfor once), is a more cost-effective solution. If you offroad more regularly in conditions where a winch can come in handy, then the vehicle-mounted option is best. For what I do, it isn't - it's mostly just weight on the front. I think there's only been one occasion in the last 10 years when I thought I could really use a vehicle winch, and even then, the problem was solved with a jack, a shovel, an axe and 3 hours of bl**dy hard work!

I understand that but some of those manual winches cost more then a WARN M8000.

Not here they don't! :)
Author:  Lancer [ Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manual winching options
Draco - that's what I was told by ARB's UK importers. Actually, I've just found the email from them confirming that the Magnum can use Plasma winch line up to 9.5mm. They also import the Tirfor, and confirmed that the Tirfor can only use steel.

As I said - I'm not in any way dismissing vehicle-mounted winches at all - it's just that for me and my usage, it would just be a heavy lump sitting up front, doing nothing from one end of the year to the next (other than loading my front suspension), but needing regular care and maintenance :) A magnum that I can just chuck (I use that word loosely here) in the load area as and when I'm venturing to any parts where I might need to self-recover, makes more sense for me.
Author:  Draco [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manual winching options
I had budgetary approval from the highest authority for a winch bumper and winch. But, I was concerned about the extra weight on the front suspension. I couldn't justify re-doing my front suspension now. I have to get at least one set of tires through that suspension.

So, I did indeed order a 3500 lb Black Rat Tuff Pull winch from Sierra Expeditions, see http://www.sierraexpeditions.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=152. The pull rating is a single-line pull rating, without a snatch block.

They had some sort of shipping issue where their container had been hijacked by Somali pirates (or something), so they substituted an ARB Magnum winch of the same rating. Both winches are made by the Australian company Beaver.

Haven't had a chance to take it out yet. At some point I'll take pictures. In general I plan to use my 25' choke chain between the front shackles and attach the winch to that. The main things I need now are (1) some sort of extension, 50' or more and probably synthetic, and (2) a ground anchor like a Pull Pal.

I still have to wonder if the ARB Magnum hand winch can be used with synthetic line. ARB also uses the Magnum brand for their electric winches. So I have to wonder if the synthetic line can only be used with the electric winches. It's hard to image the synthetic line likes to be loaded in shear by a clamping mechanism. Wrapping a line around a drum is a different matter.
Author:  Draco [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manual winching options
Oh, and now that I have a better winching setup I replaced my 60" Hi-Lift jack bar with a 48" jack bar. Now I can store it under the passenger seat.
Author:  Ryn7 [ Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manual winching options
tjkj2002 wrote:
If you ever had to use one of those manual winching items you will think $500 for a WARN M8000 is practically free.What will take you many hours of back breaking labor will take me mere mins with hardly breaking a sweat.

I may not use my $1200(+$300 syn rope) winch but when I do it has been invaluable,didn't buy it for looks either as the ARB bumper hides it anyway.



X2

Not to mention that standing along side any cable when winching is extremely dangerous.
One of my friends lost an arm that way!
Author:  tommudd [ Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manual winching options
Draco wrote:

That said, I'm also pretty interested in the SC Rockstar bumper, which is set up for a receiver hitch winch only.



:shock: you do know the story behind this joke don't you? :ROTFL:

Have used a hand winch before and a hi-lift neither was any fun, took forever and wasn't worth the effort really
Author:  Silverdiesel [ Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manual winching options
Hey Ernie - Good source links on manual winches and a definition on what a 48" High Lift should really be used for.

My decision to only go 1 inch lift puts custom front bumpers out of the question due to weight/sag/ not very good looking.
So the next best thing was an inexpensive 10K winch sitting in a 2" drawbar cradle so it can go front or rear with the two hitches I have on the KJ.
I have lots of experience with hitch installs and capabilities and existing front (and rear) hitch listings for KJ (now part numbers nonexistent) can hold on to a cradled winch no problem. When not in use the winch sits stored in my garage and rides inside when needed and then goes to the front or rear. Optima blue top 800CCA dual purpose marine style battery occupies under hood placement and 8 guage battery lines are run front and rear. Waited and got good deals on the winch complete and Optima battery and set me back way under $350.
And yes I already used winch including helping my wife's crippled Diesel Jetta to shop. Winched her on to an Auto Transport cause she filled her tank with unleaded gas! And then with the KJ towed AT with her car to shop!.
I have done lots of wheeling with difficult ratings up to 3.4 and never had to even be strapped yet winched out of being stuck.

Somebody out there had a write up on using a TJ front hitch, turning it upside down and it will fit front of KJ BUT it only has 4 total attachment points making it somewhat weak.

Roland
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