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 Post subject: Coolant Specific (not cooling systems or components)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:44 am 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
Have any of you had occasion to check out Evans Waterless Coolant? https://www.evanscoolant.com/

It's probably not something for an offroader, as mixing with water loses all it's inherent advantages, but for wives vehicles you want to be maintenance free between wildlife strikes and fender benders, it sounds pretty good. Especially the non-hazardous, non-toxic part. (Propylene Glycol vs Ethylene Glycol) And it's really expensive (40-50/gallon)

But it won't cavitate, it won't freeze or boil at any human survivable temps, even with no pressurization. Can't boil over cause it doesn't vaporize under 375 degrees.

Another interesting tidbit, since they recommend systems using their product be NOT pressurized, there is no stress on hoses, gaskets, radiator, etc., and if you get a stick up your radiator, a pair of pliers or a dab of bubblegum epoxy is all it requires to stop the leak.

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant Specific (not cooling systems or components)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:55 am 
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Most companies have a TSB stating water pump damage and other aluminum surface damage from using Propylene Glycol coolants.

Just use the correct coolant and change it at regular intervals.


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 Post subject: Re: Coolant Specific (not cooling systems or components)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:48 am 
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Thanks for that link.

A couple years ago, I was tempted to engage in an argument on a Toyota forum. Someone was stating that different fluids accept BTU's differently. That part I fully agreed with.
Their argument was, that waterless coolant will travel through an engine, and come out measuring less 'temp' at the sensor. Viola'; the stuff causes the engine to run 'cooler', even though the measured temp was lower, the same amount of 'heat' was removed.
My issue, and I'm no physicist, was that heat is heat, and if the btu's aren't transferred as quickly to fluid 'b'.. they must be 'left behind'.
The response was it takes 'x' amount of btu's to raise pure water 1 degree, (true) and 'z' amount of btu's to raise a waterless product the same amount. (also true) I searched for a table of common fluids and solids that showed this. yep, all over the 'net. Their point was accepted.
My 'hang up'.. is heat transfer rate. And thus ended my engagement on that argument. I just didn't know. :banghead:
Another of my concerns was; tuning dynamics in all the ecm's out there, using coolant temp as a big input; suddenly it's showing 10-12 degrees LOWER temps!! That ecm might go nutz.. or will the original 'stat try to compensate, and try to stay closed.. and effectively run it hotter?!? I suppose running a cooler stat would be THAT 'fix'..

That link claims that water does indeed have superior heat transfer capabilities,(which kinda answers my original thoughts on 'transfer rate') but also goes on to list all the benefits of 'waterless' as you stated. (corrosion, boiling, cavitation etc)

Some of those rock crawler 'yota guys are voracious defenders of their 40+ dollar per gallon product.. me, I'm not so sure!
All of the cooling components are designed around a certain and well documented 'rate of transfer'.. and surface area, gallons per minute, CFM's.... etc being factored in, using the coolant that is installed at the factory.. Changing the transfer rate could throw a wrench in the mix??

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11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
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80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


Last edited by rancherman on Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant Specific (not cooling systems or components)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:16 am 
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Interesting! :roll:
But I bet if it were so great and not cost prohibitive, the manufactures would be putting it in at the factory and bosting lifetime coolant as a selling point.
The engine manufacturer's probably have tested everything ever heard of and probably a few we don't even know about in their engine test labs.

The only thing in addition to the manufacturer's recommended coolant that I have ever added is Red Line "Water Wetter" which has been proven in laboratory tests to actually work.

But as TJ stated, its hard to beat just using plain old correct coolant and changing it out every so often.... :mrgreen:

Seems we are always looking for a better product for a non-problem... :ROTFL:

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant Specific (not cooling systems or components)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:07 pm 
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rancherman wrote:
My issue, and I'm no physicist, was that heat is heat, and if the btu's aren't transferred as quickly to fluid 'b'.. they must be 'left behind'.
The response was it takes 'x' amount of btu's to raise pure water 1 degree, (true) and 'z' amount of btu's to raise a waterless product the same amount. (also true) I searched for a table of common fluids and solids that showed this. yep, all over the 'net. Their point was accepted.
My 'hang up'.. is heat transfer rate. And thus ended my engagement on that argument. I just didn't know. :banghead:
Another of my concerns was; tuning dynamics in all the ecm's out there, using coolant temp as a big input; suddenly it's showing 10-12 degrees LOWER temps!! That ecm might go nutz.. or will the original 'stat try to compensate, and try to stay closed.. and effectively run it hotter?!? I suppose running a cooler stat would be THAT 'fix'..

That link claims that water does indeed have superior heat transfer capabilities,(which kinda answers my original thoughts on 'transfer rate') but also goes on to list all the benefits of 'waterless' as you stated. (corrosion, boiling, cavitation etc)

Some of those rock crawler 'yota guys are voracious defenders of their 40+ dollar per gallon product.. me, I'm not so sure!
All of the cooling components are designed around a certain and well documented 'rate of transfer'.. and surface area, gallons per minute, CFM's.... etc being factored in, using the coolant that is installed at the factory.. Changing the transfer rate could throw a wrench in the mix??

Yup.
Its hard to beat the heat transfer rate of straight distilled water (water wetter makes it even better).
But there is no freeze protection, lower boiling point, and corrosion.
And if your cooling system develops a leak, that $40 coolant becomes an expensive leak.

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant Specific (not cooling systems or components)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:13 pm 
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Lets throw this into the mix:

"transfer rate" as you refer to it, is directly affected by temperature differential.
Any given size of radiator that sheds x btu/minute with water at a given temperature, and ambient air at a given temperature,
can also shed x btu/minute with water+antifreeze mix at the same ambient temperature, when the coolant is raised to the necessary higher temperature.

If you try to increase the transfer rate of water in the same system, you run into the problem of boiling, vapor pockets, etc.
Same for water+antifreeze mix, only at slightly higher temperatures
This is addressed by putting the system under +1 atmospheres of pressure to bring the temperature up without vaporizing, raise the transfer rate higher.
Now you get the higher transfer rate, but you have an unstable pressurized system. If pressure is lost, you have vaporization an boiling in hot spots, as well as risk of damage to machine or people due to the spray of heated toxic coolant.

This is an alternative in which you can run the necessary higher temperature of coolant to maintain the transfer rate, without risk of boilover or engine failure due to internal vapor in the cooling system, and without the hazard of a pressurized system. The water+Ethlene Glycol systems don't go past these limits, simply because they can't, not because they don't want to. If they need to increase rate of transfer, they only way they can do this is changing other factors, such as radiator size or design.

I'm not sold on the Evans system, but for other reasons, not because of efficiency or "thermal transfer rate".

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 Post subject: Re: Coolant Specific (not cooling systems or components)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:34 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
tjkj2002 wrote:
Most companies have a TSB stating water pump damage and other aluminum surface damage from using Propylene Glycol coolants.

Just use the correct coolant and change it at regular intervals.


That's my current tack, but still keeping an eye to other alternatives.

Having lost a very beloved bulldog to antifreeze poisoning a few decades back, I always get really obsessed with that risk when the time comes to crack a system.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
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Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


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 Post subject: Re: Coolant Specific (not cooling systems or components)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:01 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
Most companies have a TSB stating water pump damage and other aluminum surface damage from using Propylene Glycol coolants.

Just use the correct coolant and change it at regular intervals.


That's my current tack, but still keeping an eye to other alternatives.

Having lost a very beloved bulldog to antifreeze poisoning a few decades back, I always get really obsessed with that risk when the time comes to crack a system.


I hear you! I think antifreeze poisoning is THE worst possible way to die, or watch a pet/animal die.

Back when I had a rat infestation in some barns, I'd set out pans full of antifreeze.. worked like a charm. But it's almost cruel to see even a rat convulsing for hours..

_________________
2006 KJ CRD, bought 9/11/14, 70,500 miles. Circulating Rotella T6 5w-40
11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


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 Post subject: Re: Coolant Specific (not cooling systems or components)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:16 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
It turns their kidneys into rocks, and they die of sepsis.

We managed to save the female bulldog, as she hadn't gotten as much. The antidote is ethanol by IV. It's almost as bad watching a drunk-ass bulldog recovering from a 3-day bender.

Where as Propylene Glycol is a medical grade food/medicine sweetener. Hence my interest.
It also is not corrosive at all to metals, and doesn't break down like the additive package in traditional Ethylene Glycol antifreezes. You can fill your rig once, and if you have no leaks, it will outlast the vehicle

Probably the worst inherent weakness for an off-roading rig, is that is strongly affected by water, since it doesn't mix with water. With even 3% water content, the water can contact high heat components, and cause all of the problems that steam and cavitation can cause. This is further complicated by the fact that it's hydrophyllic. Like brake fluid. It actually pulls water from ambient air, where ever the two come in contact. Their current fix for this is to run the system with the filler cap removed to allow the steam to be released. Makes me a bit uneasy.

I know there's something to it, though, because Jay Leno, at his garage/museum, has used it for 20 years or so, and claims the only problematic cooling systems he has had were with water-antifreeze systems. HE even converted his Duesenbergs to it, at 18 gallons per system.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
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