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Will you buy if the US Auto companies file Chapter 11?
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=37599		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  warp2diesel [ Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Will you buy if the US Auto companies file Chapter 11?
Most of the people I have talked to in my travels want GM, Ford and Chrysler to file Chapter 11 and reorganize.
Get the big cats out or drop their astronomical salaries and have the UAW take a pay and bennie cut or get out as well.

If this takes place will you buy a vehicle that fits your needs from a US Auto Company?
Author:  fastRob [ Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Taxes, Regulation and Freedom
Unfortunately the current climate of taxes, regulation and existing contracts mean that the 3 auto manufacturers will leave the country.
Not the way I want it, just the way it is.
Unless and until we Americans and Congress smell the coffee, encourage and promote excellence, we are screwed.
I want a J8 real bad, nothing against our Liberty, just want a real Jeep.
Why can't I buy one here?
Author:  Joe Romas [ Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Personally I've bought 9 new cars in my lifetime and have driven a like number of new company cars. Of all the cars the best was a 1974 AMC Hornet :shock: Anyone remember those? The rest with exception of the two VW TDI's were a dissappointment mostly in the service department. But the Liberty is by far the worst all around. Initial build quality is very good but things like seats that stain with clear water and foam deteroiting after 2 years to detuning the engine to make the torque converter last through the warranty period win it the RUSTY STAR AWARD :lol: The first new car I was exposed to was a 1971 Ford Torino, at 95 days old the outside drivers door handle fell off. I handed it to the service writer and my company was charged to put it back on. A trained monkey could have put the retaining clip on properly :roll:

During my career of almost 40 years as a computer technition I weathered good times and bad. One year we all got a 7% cut and even at retirement age I NEVER earned clost to the wages of an autoworker and never had the bennifits they have till they die. Yes it's a boring job but does not require a lot of training or skill. If the "Fat Cats from the top to the bottom, including CEO to 3rd shift janitor" were all paid less then more money could go into buiilding a quality product. As far as moving off shore that may be true but the rest of the world's automakers are moving here :lol:

I think the best thing that could happen to Jeep is for Tata/Mahindra buy them :) then we could have the J8 :D
Author:  gmctd [ Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
There is no new vehicle I would buy under any circumstance, but I'd like to see them file for Ch13, dump the unions, fire the CEO right on down, reorganize with a salary cap of, say 1mil\50kbucks bonuses for top-level execs, with remaining salaries to national-standard, commensurate with the skill level - 65bucks\hr for floor-sweepers is crazy - 65bucks\hr for a quote\unquote electrical tech whose only job is to install the 15a HORN fuse in it's slot in the convenience panel is crazy - like JR, I retired from a national-avg, non-union salary, so I am aware of what those union-enforced salaries have done to the prices of assembly-line vehicles and the results on the over-all economy.

Then, what about the continuing high prices of Diesel fuel, way over the price of gasoline, and the oil companies rubbing our noses in their astronomically-high profits each quarter? Takes a lot more processing to make a gallon of gasoline from two gallons of Diesel fuel, so what process does the exorbitant over-price actually reflect? Particularly since Diesel fuels the national infrastructure, delivering all goods and consumables, incl food - does the term 'windfall profiteering' have any relevance, here?
Author:  retmil46 [ Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
IMHO, the bailout isn't so they can keep their US operations going - just the opposite, it's so they can finish SHUTTING DOWN their US operations and outsourcing all their manufacturing operations to other countries.

GM alone just finished building a vehicle assembly plant in Russia, and two engine plants in India and the Far East. Doesn't sound like they're hurting too bad outside of the US.

My read is that the OEM's can't get financing for completing the move out of country from the banks due to the credit mess - so they went to the next best source - the US government and taxpayers.

Then again, I can't really blame them for looking to other countries and governments that offer them a better deal overall, not just cheap labor. Lee Iacocca once said that Chrysler could compete with Honda and Toyota, but not with Japan Inc. In other words, he couldn't compete with other countries subsidizing their car manufacturers, while all his costs came out of pocket. The Japanese government picked up the development costs for the Prius hybrid for Toyota - if not, they'd have a $40K price tag like is being discussed for the Chevy Volt.

Even if the unions completely rolled over and took pay/benefit cuts to median wage levels - $14/hour here in NC - even at that level, how in the devil can you compete with $5/hour ($1.50/hour for new workers under the latest agreements) in Mexico, and even lower in China and other countries? All things being equal. if given the opportunity, the OEM's will still make a rush for the exits to get that $10/hour/person savings in labor costs.
Author:  dieselenthusiast [ Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
GM, Chrysler, and Ford are toast. It’s just a matter of time when all U.S. plants are moved to Mexico. I hope someone can save Jeep and keep Cummins for future diesel pickups and SUV’s. On behalf of Chrysler, at least they have attempted to introduce diesels into an incredible difficult market. I’m kinda like gmctd, I have no desire to buy anymore new vehicles. I’m working hard to get a CRD pullout from Germany shipped over to swap into an 07 Wrangler, so we’ll see what happens. Too bad we have an ignorant EPA.

I voted, "I would buy a vehicle that is what I want." Life is a game, unfortunately we have to learn to play it.
Author:  Threeweight [ Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
They are going bankrupt because they failed to invest in new technology and the US healthcare system is sheeeeet. No bailout plan is going to resolve either issue. I agree with Retmil46, the bailout is about getting enough $$ in hand to see them through while they shut down the rest of their US production and move operations entirely off shore.

The #1 union cost to the Big 3 is health care to retired employees. No way to fix it without fixing the US healthcare system (unless you want a large portion of those retirees showing up at the local emergency room for their primary health care, relying solely on Medicare, and driving up your insurance and taxes instead). No way to solve the technological innovation problems without major changes in leadership in the companies and in regulatory incentives in the US. Toyota is ten years ahead of the US automakers on hybrids, with VW and Mercedes similarly ahead on diesels. They can't catch up.

For the last two decades America has slowly been slitting its own throat when it comes to industry. Trade deals that encourage outsourcing of jobs, intentionally devaluing our own currency, refusal to invest in infrastructure, refusal to shift regulations to require technological innovation, refusal to deal with out of control health care costs.

Now we have a lose-lose proposition. Let em' go bankrupt and let all those "lazy" Democrat-voting union members lose their jobs. Just be prepared to see what the loss of those jobs does to the national economy, and to see the industrial towns of Michigan and Ohio complete their transformations into third world cities. Bail them out, then watch the $$ go to closing down US manufacturing, shifting new production to Mexico and China, and dividends for their shareholders.

If only the real world were as simple as political slogans.

My next car will need to get at least 60 mpg for me to replace our TDI. My next truck is a question mark... I'd like something that gets at least 30 mpg. I'd love to buy either vehicle from a domestic manufacturer. However, if they can't make them I'll be buying VW or Toyota.
Author:  CrossBones [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:17 am ]
Post subject: 
I really didn't see a need to vote in the poll.

As for some of the conversation... Yeah, unless you're that UAW worker with a mortgage and six mouths to feed at home. Who by the way paid more for his new Wrangler at the employee discount than you did with the incentive savings offered to you at the time.

My recommendation;
LIVE IT
Image
Author:  RkyMtnKJ [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
it's amazing how insightful some of you are. maybe that's me with less experience in life, but a really interesting topic to read. The only problem i see with the big 3 is trucks. . .i have yet to see a heavy-duty light truck that is produced like a ford powerstroke or a dodge cummins come from another manufacturer... i would love to see a tundra become available with a diesel because the V8 they're using for it is HUGE and drinks gas.
Author:  Inc [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
I believe Nissan has a contract with Cummins for a small diesel in the Titan. Ford is also coming out with a small diesel for the 150 I think. Not sure about any Toyota diesel.
Author:  retmil46 [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
incubusmike wrote:
I believe Nissan has a contract with Cummins for a small diesel in the Titan. Ford is also coming out with a small diesel for the 150 I think. Not sure about any Toyota diesel.


Not any more. Along with Honda and their 2.2L, they announced recently they've dropped plans for any diesel option in the US.

And as I opined about Honda in another thread, they're waiting to see if they get hammered with even more restrictive emissions by the new admin.
Author:  Inc [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
Bummer. Thanks for the update.
Author:  tommudd [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Lets see I have had a drivers license for 38 years now, I got my first car at 15 a 49 Chevrolet, my first Harley when I was 20, My first brand new truck (a Ford) when I was 21 since then I have owned over 73 Jeeps, Fords ( all trucks),couple of Dodges, GMCs and 5 Harleys, will I buy anything else HE77 NO no unless I am forced to and their is no other option. Never owned one of those over the ocean name brands and don't really care if some are built here now, will not buy them.

Complain about the Unions if you must but without them we would still be working 50 /60 hour weeks, they may need to upgrade their thoughts some, but I know some of the men and women who built your KJ/KKs and they are like everyone else struggling to get by due to forced layoffs/ benefits being cut/ retirements not what they were promised when they signed on 25/30 years ago etc.

65 buck an hour floor sweepers????? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
as for voting , see no point in it :wink:
Author:  dirtykj [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
What's so special about the auto industry? The airline industry has been wiping off their debts for a long long time ... in my industry (tech / IT) our jobs have been outsourced overseas so I don't see why another industry deserves any special treatment. Be good at what you're doing or be replaced.
Author:  retmil46 [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Between the aasembly plants, parts plants, material suppliers, etc - if the OEM's close their doors in thsi country, you're talking around 2 million jobs gone in one fell swoop by conservative estimates.
Author:  CrossBones [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
tommudd wrote:
65 buck an hour floor sweepers????? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah, right?! Sign me up! :lol:
Author:  jeepmedic46 [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Would like to see them reorganize, Don't want to see that many people out of work
Author:  InCommando [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
IMHO, anyone who buys a new vehicle from a Japanese company is shooting themselves in the foot. Japan's protectionist trade policies make dealing with them unfair. It would only take a minimal amount of research to learn that.

Tundra? you need to look into that from an unbiased source.

Titan? Perhaps you have missed the fact that the Titan will now be a re-badged Dodge Ram. The reason they will have a cummins diesel is that the diesel will be in the Dodge with their name on it. Dodge will offer diesel V6's & V8's in their light-duty trucks.

Both of those vehicles are failures in the market and the leading $ losers for their companies. Both of those companies have abandoned any thought of 3/4 or 1-ton versions nearly two years ago.

Ford & Dodge will have small-displacement diesels in their light-line trucks in a year or two. I am not sure about GM or what their contract with Isuzu for the Duramax may restrict them to.

I am sure that although GM janitors may not make $65/hr straight pay, if you add up a veteran GM janitor's salary plus bennies plus future bennie value ( healthcare, for example) that figure may be a tad low. It would scare you to figure the real figure out for skilled trades. Granted many of the hire-ins for the last several years are at a much different pay scale then the old farts.

It is not so much the cost of healthcare per se as that the big three are paying for extravagant healthcare ( no deductables or co-pays ) for people who have not worked for them in decades. Part is short-sightedness at contract time & part is many more people are living much longer, taking more expensive drugs that did not exist 10 years ago,and having more frequent expensive surgeries, than anyone foresaw. The life expectency charts are shooting up at unheard of paces. That, coupled with the low-lifes out there who get a shyster everytime their band-aid pulls their arm hair out, gives the Big 3 a royal screwing. A family friend who is a high-risk ob. had his malpractice insurance premuim increase $100,000/yr in 2007 despite having never been sued. That is not the healthcare's fault.

You want cheap healthcare? Agree to take no drugs that were not available in 1975 & undergo no surgical techniques that have been invented in the last 30 years and you may be able to negotiate a dang good rate. But don't expect 2009 healthcare at 1975 prices. Do you want a Dr. who only makes $50k/year? I wouldn't. What would lure the gifted to be Dr.'s if it is not pay? The level of care would tank overnight.

Anyway, no one who has biotched about unemployment to get elected or to decide on their elected officials had better sit by while hundrends of thousands of jobs get flushed. The number is probably millions when you consider the suppliers, food places near the plants, other jobs in towns with huge percantages of auto workers. Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.
Author:  CrossBones [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Last I heard, the union line worker's were making $27.00 / hr prior to concessions - now many are earning between $14.00 - $18.50 / hr. As for those old farts you referred to, I don't blame those who have chosen to take the buy out.
Author:  dirtykj [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
InCommando wrote:
Do you want a Dr. who only makes $50k/year? I wouldn't. What would lure the gifted to be Dr.'s if it is not pay? The level of care would tank overnight.


That's not necessarily true. You can always take a packaged health/tourism combo trip to India or Thailand and get excellent care for a fraction of what it would cost in the States.
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