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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:22 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
:shock: :furious: :shock: Oh :banghead: No! :cry: :dizzy:

Well, that definitely explains the injector. You are now going past my level of personal experience with this particular engine.

Also there are some in here that have been there, done that. Mountainman comes to mind. There are others, but I can't remember all their names.
:5SHOTS:

My next question is probably still within your experience...

Is it easy to pull just the engine? Or easier to pull engine and trans together? My trans is working fine and I'm not looking forward to dropping the transfer case even though I do have a transmission jack.

I have the front of the vehicle removed. Ready for the engine hoist and engine stand.
Image

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:18 am 
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I'm just guessing here, so anyone who knows for sure that I'm wrong, please chime in.

1) My understanding from the many posts about pulling the trans for one reason or another, is that in the vehicle it is a royal PITA.
2) Since there are myriad things of front suspension, axle, steering, etc, that make it basically impossible to pull the oil pan in the car, My guess is going out the bottom would be also a PITA.

Those two combined would make me look to pulling it up out of the engine compartment, with engine, trans, and transfer case as one piece. To do that you would have to have the vehicle high enough to prevent binding with the trans tunnel / firewall intersection.

[edit] I guess I should also add that my reason for this line of thinking, is Since in this far, might as well take care of the known issues with the trans.
But then, with the head already removed, the main issues of separating the trans are pretty much negated. The TC bolt window above the starter is easy to access. The top bolts of the trans bell housing are also easily accessed. As long as there's room to move the trans back away from the engine.... That might be easier. From there you can access the Torque Converter, the front pump, and the rear main seal. (might as well do it while you're there). Seriously, I don't really know. Might as well just let someone who's been there done that answer your question.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 148Kmi

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

Flowmaster 942550
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15017911
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770

Future plans: GDE Trans tune


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:15 am 
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Thanks for the educated guess from riding this forum for such a long time,

Today I have been working from topside. Thursday I'll work from underneath and see how it goes.

Being backed into a corner, I decided to read the instructions. The "2005 Jeep KJ Service Manual.pdf" uploaded to this forum has the following directions which have been excerpted.

Image

Image

So I will continue on this path, it's only 54 steps. :dizzy: ...actually, most of it is already done. I just have this small list of steps to do.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:30 am 
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CaptainDean wrote:
Image

Sent this picture to the local machinist and he thinks he can fix it. I'll take the real head to him tomorrow and see if his opinion sticks.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


Top
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:36 am 
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Got the engine out today. Started at 10 AM and finished at 4 PM. The hardest parts were made difficult by the wiring. Wire bundle holders in the way of getting to the bolts. If I ever meet an engineer from the automotive industry, I'm going to break his/her fingers. Engines are built as a complete eng/trans/xfer-case unit and placed in the vehicle already wired. There is not enough thought put into owners having to work on them. This is why I like pre-1995 (or so) vehicles.

Back to the point... the engine does come out with only removing the bolts around the bell housing, although some from the back, some from the front. Be ready to catch transmission fluid from the torque converter. (I should have been ready for that one.)

Here is a shot of the back side of the engine freshly removed from the vehicle. About a dozen bolts around the perimeter. Some need a 15mm wrench, some a 14mm, and one a 16mm. <-- that is a pet peeve of mine.
Image

My next quest is figuring out how to remove the torque converter. I had to stop to clean my fingers in preparation to performing a wedding. Can't stand in front of the bride & groom with greasy finger nails. ...maybe the torque converter just slides off the flywheel? I'll attack that on Saturday.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:53 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:36 pm
Posts: 3234
Location: Central GA
The torque converter is bolted to the flywheel or flexplate as some call it. The bolts are accessed by removing the starter and removing them one at a time by rotating the engine via the bolt on the front of the crankshaft that holds the harmonic balancer on.

Note: you should have done this prior to removing the engine and left the torque converter in place and you would have not lost any ATF fluid.... :wink:

From the FSM:
section 21, page 176

15) Remove the starter motor.
(16) Remove the engine to transmission collar
(17) Rotate crankshaft in clockwise direction until
converter bolts are accessible. Then remove bolts one
at a time. Rotate crankshaft with socket wrench on
dampener bolt.

_________________
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/Battery Tray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/Hayden HD clutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair,K&N


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:56 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
The torque converter is bolted to the flywheel or flexplate as some call it. The bolts are accessed by removing the starter and removing them one at a time by rotating the engine via the bolt on the front of the crankshaft that holds the harmonic balancer on.

Note: you should have done this prior to removing the engine and left the torque converter in place and you would have not lost any ATF fluid.... :wink:

From the FSM:
section 21, page 176

15) Remove the starter motor.
(16) Remove the engine to transmission collar
(17) Rotate crankshaft in clockwise direction until
converter bolts are accessible. Then remove bolts one
at a time. Rotate crankshaft with socket wrench on
dampener bolt.

Thanks WWDiesel,

Bummer, a day late and an FSM short. I downloaded a three FSMs (Body, Chassis, Cooling) from the Forum but I didn't find the one you quoted. The Jeep JK Service Manual covered the parts I posted but didn't mention the bolts for the torque converter.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


Top
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:47 pm 
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CaptainDean wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
The torque converter is bolted to the flywheel or flexplate as some call it. The bolts are accessed by removing the starter and removing them one at a time by rotating the engine via the bolt on the front of the crankshaft that holds the harmonic balancer on.

Note: you should have done this prior to removing the engine and left the torque converter in place and you would have not lost any ATF fluid.... :wink:

From the FSM:
section 21, page 176

15) Remove the starter motor.
(16) Remove the engine to transmission collar
(17) Rotate crankshaft in clockwise direction until
converter bolts are accessible. Then remove bolts one
at a time. Rotate crankshaft with socket wrench on
dampener bolt.

Thanks WWDiesel,
Bummer, a day late and an FSM short. I downloaded a three FSMs (Body, Chassis, Cooling) from the Forum but I didn't find the one you quoted. The Jeep JK Service Manual covered the parts I posted but didn't mention the bolts for the torque converter.
Dean.

This is the one you want:>http://www.colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ/2005JeepKJServiceManual.pdf

_________________
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/Battery Tray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/Hayden HD clutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair,K&N


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:10 am 
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If you need to remove the transmission without pulling the engine or damaging the Front Pump seal, there is a rectangular silicone plug just above and slightly inboard of the starter that gives access to the torque converter to flex plate bolts, without pulling the starter.

In my time, Flywheels are weighty items used to even out torque pulses, and prevent engines from dying from being loaded too quickly, by improper operation of a manual clutch. Flex plates are minimally light, and used with fluid drives and torque converters, as there is no manual clutch, thus no need to protect the engine from being stalled. Perhaps that is changed now, as many things have.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 148Kmi

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

Flowmaster 942550
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15017911
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770

Future plans: GDE Trans tune


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:37 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
CaptainDean wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
The torque converter is bolted to the flywheel or flexplate as some call it. The bolts are accessed by removing the starter and removing them one at a time by rotating the engine via the bolt on the front of the crankshaft that holds the harmonic balancer on.

Note: you should have done this prior to removing the engine and left the torque converter in place and you would have not lost any ATF fluid.... :wink:

From the FSM:
section 21, page 176

15) Remove the starter motor.
(16) Remove the engine to transmission collar
(17) Rotate crankshaft in clockwise direction until
converter bolts are accessible. Then remove bolts one
at a time. Rotate crankshaft with socket wrench on
dampener bolt.

Thanks WWDiesel,
Bummer, a day late and an FSM short. I downloaded a three FSMs (Body, Chassis, Cooling) from the Forum but I didn't find the one you quoted. The Jeep JK Service Manual covered the parts I posted but didn't mention the bolts for the torque converter.
Dean.

This is the one you want:>http://www.colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ/2005JeepKJServiceManual.pdf

Turns out this is the same manual I already have. I re-read the procedure and finally found the part I missed. I wish it was re-worded to, "(33) Remove the torque converter fasteners."
Image

However, all is said and done, and my mess is cleaned up. Transmission fluid under the bridge.

This is all much clearer now, so for the next time it will go better. Maybe someone reading this will have an easier time.

Thanks for all the input GordnadoCRD and WWDiesel, and others.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


Top
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:26 pm 
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Posts: 123
Ok, I'm baffled again. Trying to remove the flex plate from the crank shaft. These buggers are T-I-G-H-T.
Image

Ruined my first T-50 bit, although it is a Taiwanese product. It's better to ruin the bit instead of the bolt. Bought a new set of NAPA impact-ready Torqx bits and went to work.

Used the impact driver that you hit with a hammer and no joy.
Used an electric impact driver and still no joy.
Heated the bolt and continued with the impact gun - no joy.
Used a hardened pin and hammer to bash the head sideways, just to dislodge the head if stuck. No joy.

What is the trick to removing these 40mm T-50 bolts?

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


Top
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:40 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:12 pm
Posts: 1297
Location: N. Muddle Oregon Coast
More Heat, most likely.

I'm not sure what kind of threadlocker was used on these, but that's normally the trick, if the hammer-impact doesn't work. That is a lot of metal to heat up.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 148Kmi

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

Flowmaster 942550
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15017911
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770

Future plans: GDE Trans tune


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:50 am 
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Thanks GordnadoCRD,

I'll use more heat tomorrow. I'm not sure what "anti-scuff treatment" is but it must be similar to a thread lock.
Image

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


Top
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:45 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:36 pm
Posts: 3234
Location: Central GA
A good air impact gun will remove them! You may also want to try hitting the head of each bolt with a heavy hammer a couple of times to help jar it loose (old mechanic's trick).
An electric impact generally never provides as much loosing torque as a good double hammer air impact.

I have an old industrial type air impact double hammer Ingersoll Rand that I bring out as a last resort if I have a real stubborn bolt or nut that my Dewalt cordless impact won't budge, and it will either break it loose or break something else trying!!! :ROTFL:

_________________
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/Battery Tray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/Hayden HD clutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair,K&N


Top
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:51 pm 
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I'm going to try a butt-load of heat first. Using the impact gun is already beginning to wear at the splines inside the bolt head. If I get a more powerful impact gun, I fear the splines will give way. (I do have the correct size T-50 tool and it's brand new and of good quality.)

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


Top
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:53 am 
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CaptainDean wrote:
I'm going to try a butt-load of heat first. Using the impact gun is already beginning to wear at the splines inside the bolt head. If I get a more powerful impact gun, I fear the splines will give way. (I do have the correct size T-50 tool and it's brand new and of good quality.)

I heated the area for an hour with a big propane torch, the type you burn weeds with. It got to 650°F which probably related to 350°F on the end of the crankshaft.
Image
After an hour of heat, I tried a few bolts and they never budged. Ended up breaking the new T-50 bit. Took the set back to NAPA and got my $48 back.

Tomorrow (Monday) I'll stop by the local welding & gas supply store and get a propane rosebud torch and try again.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


Top
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:02 am 
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For the rest of the day I got the engine on the stand and took it apart more. Got a good look at the cylinders and held my breath. I'll hone cylinders 1, 2, 4, and replace 3. The crank looks good and turns smoothly. Still need to get the flex plate bolts out in order to remove the crank, in order to remove sleeve #3.

Cylinder 1 looks good.
Image

Cylinder 2 looks good.
Image

Cylinder 3 is trashed. I hope the block is not damaged.
Image

Cylinder 4 looks good.
Image

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


Top
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:02 pm 
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Location: N. Muddle Oregon Coast
Thanks for the images
Somehow I never pictured the piston-cooling oil jets hanging that close to the connecting rods.

I hope you can get all the broken metal pieces out of the water jacket.

Take care getting too much heat on the crankshaft mounting flange that the flex plate is mounted to.

If you have an oxyacetylene set, try centering the flame (slightly carburizing) on the center of the bolthead, and when it begins to glow, quickly quench the head of the bolt. When heated the bolt expansion cannot push out against the metal it's threaded into, so it expands lengthwise. When quenched faster than the surrounding metal, it contracts away, becoming slightly smaller than the surrounding metal, and makes it free to unthread. TAKE CARE NOT TO USE ANYTHING CHLORINATED OR FLAMMABLE. I've used this to loosen frozen studs before, if there is enough protruding to heat and quench. To quench I used a metal pipe or tubing that fit tightly around the stud, and shot water in the end. Even if the water came out past the threads, it still cooled the studs faster than the surrounding metal. I don't know if that WILL help or not, but it worked for me. Whatever you use, MAKE SURE BEFOREHAND TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM BOILING SPLATTER AND SUPERHEATED STEAM.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 148Kmi

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

Flowmaster 942550
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15017911
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770

Future plans: GDE Trans tune


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:00 am 
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Thanks GordnadoCRD,

I like the idea of heating the bolt heads and quenching them quickly. Thermal expansion is our friend. It probably only has to grow .001" to .0015" to loosen. I have the oxyacetylene set already, just need to rent bottles & gas.

The cylinder sleeve removal tool is a big surprise at $245 to $420, plus the need to remove the crankshaft. I think it will be far cheaper to have a local machinist turn-out a one-off removal tool that will work in the confines of the available space. A close fitting D-shaped removal tool should work just as good as a circular one. It will fit down through the cylinder into place, and negate the need to remove the crankshaft. I'll have to order the cylinder sleeve kit first for the measurements.

You mentioned avoiding Chlorinated or flammable quenching agents. Since this is a public forum, these precautions are prudent to mention. I certainly would not want to quench it with bleach and be surrounded in a cloud of poisonous chlorine gas. Bleach does, however, make a reasonable refrigerant so I can understand the connection. Oddly enough, gasoline makes a reasonable refrigerant also, but is highly flammable and explosive. Blam! Thud.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


Top
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:15 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:12 am
Posts: 105
Location: Alaska
I've had good luck melting threadlocker on bolts using a small butane pen torch just heating the head of the bolt long enough for the heat to go the length of the bolt.

Use left handed drill bits if you have to drill the boltheads.


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