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 Post subject: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:25 pm 
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The lift was finished on Friday, and I took the KJ over for alignment today. They were able to get it mostly right, but the steering now requires a million corrections per second to keep the Jeep in its lane. Brought it back to them, they went over it again, and still can't get it 100%.

Here's what was installed at the front:

OME 1.5" struts & springs
Strut mounts
JBA lifted upper A-arms
Lower ball joints
Inner & outer tie rod ends

This wasn't an issue before the lift went in, so it's definitely causing the behavior I'm seeing. Any ideas? The alignment shop is suggesting that over-tightened ball joints could be a cause, but everything was torqued to spec with a torque wrench that, as far as I know, is pretty much spot-on.

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2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
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OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:13 pm 
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I am NOT an expert on this, but one thing I noticed I'm not certain is correct is using the "lifted" version of the JBA upper arms with the OME lift.
I believe the shortness of the left side CRD axle limits lifts to the point that the "lifted" versions are not necessary.
I am sure tommudd will correct this if it's wrong, but it might be something to examine.

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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:48 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
I am NOT an expert on this, but one thing I noticed I'm not certain is correct is using the "lifted" version of the JBA upper arms with the OME lift.
I believe the shortness of the left side CRD axle limits lifts to the point that the "lifted" versions are not necessary.
I am sure tommudd will correct this if it's wrong, but it might be something to examine.


I'd be interested to hear what he has to say - JBA is selling the OME lifts as a package with the upper arms, and I specifically bought that package with an eye towards possibly adding another inch or so onto it in the future.

My guess is that caster would be the issue in this case (particularly with the relatively small lift), but that should probably be able to be corrected with shimming at the upper ball joints.

_________________
2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
245/75R16 BFG TA KO2s
OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
V6 Airbox


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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:58 pm 
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Too much + camber can also cause one to "hunt" everytime you encounter some uneven pavement as will toe not set correctly. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:03 am 
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Which rims you are using? Front wheels with less offset cause car to "search" in uneven surface more than stock ones. I personally have rims with 18mm less offset than originals and it is bit more sensitive but not disturbingly lot. I have 1.5" H&R springs with original upper arms and after alignment it is even more stable on road than before the lift.

Have you tried if it's the same with four wheel drive? If connecting 4x4 calms it, there's most probably too much negative toe-in.

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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:26 am 
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casm wrote:
GordnadoCRD wrote:
I am NOT an expert on this, but one thing I noticed I'm not certain is correct is using the "lifted" version of the JBA upper arms with the OME lift.
I believe the shortness of the left side CRD axle limits lifts to the point that the "lifted" versions are not necessary.
I am sure tommudd will correct this if it's wrong, but it might be something to examine.


I'd be interested to hear what he has to say - JBA is selling the OME lifts as a package with the upper arms, and I specifically bought that package with an eye towards possibly adding another inch or so onto it in the future.

My guess is that caster would be the issue in this case (particularly with the relatively small lift), but that should probably be able to be corrected with shimming at the upper ball joints.

Someone once posted the alignment specs for a lifted liberty. I cant remember exactly what they are. But basically, caster doesn't get adjusted. The lift will cause caster to be a bit out of spec. It just is what it is.
Camber and toe is only what gets adjusted.
All adjustments are done at the lower control arm and tie rod ends. Nothing to adjust with the upper arms.

When I did my lift, I marked the lower cam bolts, then loosened them.
When I had it all back together, I set the cam bolts back to their marked location and tightened them up with the full weight of the jeep on the ground.
All the alignment shop had to do was set the toe.
It pulls a bit to the right but other than that it steers pretty good. Steering is a bit more sensitive because of the increased angle of the tie rods between the rack and steering knuckle.

I will say that the JBA upper arms are necessary for doing the lift.
I thought my lift wouldn't be too much for stock arms, but 8 months later my upper ball joints are showing wear and need replacement.

BTW, if steering still seems too sensitive for you, bigger wider tires will help dampen that feeling :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:48 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
JBA offers 2 sets of upper arms.

Stock to less than 4" lift.
4"+ lift

I've always gotten the gist that 4" with a CRD would cause problems with the CVs on the left side, due to the shortness of the axle.

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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:23 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
JBA offers 2 sets of upper arms.

Stock to less than 4" lift.
4"+ lift

I've always gotten the gist that 4" with a CRD would cause problems with the CVs on the left side, due to the shortness of the axle.

I just ordered the JBA upper arms.
The website didn’t specify a specific lift height. Only lifted or stock height.
I ordered the lifted arms.

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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:52 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
I'm guessing they are not the ones recommended for an OME lift.

Whether or not they would cause any issues, would take someone far more knowledgeable than I to answer. You could try calling JBA, or wait for Mr Mudd.

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'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:39 am 
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Grotsoldaat wrote:
Which rims you are using? Front wheels with less offset cause car to "search" in uneven surface more than stock ones. I personally have rims with 18mm less offset than originals and it is bit more sensitive but not disturbingly lot. I have 1.5" H&R springs with original upper arms and after alignment it is even more stable on road than before the lift.


Stock 16-inch 5-spoke rims. Had them rebalanced just to be safe; no change.

Quote:
Have you tried if it's the same with four wheel drive? If connecting 4x4 calms it, there's most probably too much negative toe-in.


It does help a bit, but not trememdously so. The difference is barely noticeable.

_________________
2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
245/75R16 BFG TA KO2s
OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
V6 Airbox


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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:42 am 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
I'm guessing they are not the ones recommended for an OME lift.

Whether or not they would cause any issues, would take someone far more knowledgeable than I to answer. You could try calling JBA, or wait for Mr Mudd.


Here's the thing: JBA sells the A-arms for use with up to 4" of lift as part of a package with the OME lift. This is what I bought. That leads me to believe that what I got was correct for the lift that was installed.

_________________
2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
245/75R16 BFG TA KO2s
OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
V6 Airbox


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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:47 am 
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flash7210 wrote:
Someone once posted the alignment specs for a lifted liberty. I cant remember exactly what they are. But basically, caster doesn't get adjusted. The lift will cause caster to be a bit out of spec. It just is what it is.
Camber and toe is only what gets adjusted.
All adjustments are done at the lower control arm and tie rod ends. Nothing to adjust with the upper arms.


Interesting. OK, that pretty much eliminates caster as a possibility.

Quote:
When I did my lift, I marked the lower cam bolts, then loosened them.
When I had it all back together, I set the cam bolts back to their marked location and tightened them up with the full weight of the jeep on the ground.
All the alignment shop had to do was set the toe.
It pulls a bit to the right but other than that it steers pretty good. Steering is a bit more sensitive because of the increased angle of the tie rods between the rack and steering knuckle.


I'm wondering if that can't be adjusted out at the rack. I semi-regularly put 1000-mile drives on this Jeep, and having over-sensitive steering is going to make it really tiring on runs like that.

Quote:
I will say that the JBA upper arms are necessary for doing the lift.
I thought my lift wouldn't be too much for stock arms, but 8 months later my upper ball joints are showing wear and need replacement.

BTW, if steering still seems too sensitive for you, bigger wider tires will help dampen that feeling :twisted:


Agreed re: the tyres, but these ones only have around 12,000 miles on them at this point. Can't justify going bigger until they're shot.

_________________
2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
245/75R16 BFG TA KO2s
OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
V6 Airbox


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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:28 am 
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casm wrote:

Interesting. OK, that pretty much eliminates caster as a possibility.


Caster is a major possibility.

For the IFS KJ when doing a alignment after a lift you want the camber to be set in spec(with no more than 0.5 degree cross camber),toe is set to spec,and caster is the compromise but needs to be at least 2.5 degrees and no more then 0.5 degree cross caster.Caster and camber are both adjusted via the LCA cam bolts and moving 1 bolt effects both measurements but the front effect camber more while the rear effects caster more.

Less caster = easier slow speed turning,twitchy high speed steering(sensitive at higher speed)

More caster = harder slow speed turning but much better control and less sensitive at higher speeds.

Your typical Jeep and or pickups have between 2.5-5 degrees of caster,your typical passenger car has 3-6 degrees of caster,and your higher end "touring" cars will have 6-10 degrees of caster.


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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:28 pm 
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Have you tried rotating the tires? possible you are fighting a 'wear pattern' from previous set up.. These are the tires from pre lift days?
I'd let it settle-in for a couple thousand miles, and return for another alignment.

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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:29 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
Caster is a major possibility.

For the IFS KJ when doing a alignment after a lift you want the camber to be set in spec(with no more than 0.5 degree cross camber),toe is set to spec,and caster is the compromise but needs to be at least 2.5 degrees and no more then 0.5 degree cross caster.Caster and camber are both adjusted via the LCA cam bolts and moving 1 bolt effects both measurements but the front effect camber more while the rear effects caster more.

Less caster = easier slow speed turning,twitchy high speed steering(sensitive at higher speed)

More caster = harder slow speed turning but much better control and less sensitive at higher speeds.

Your typical Jeep and or pickups have between 2.5-5 degrees of caster,your typical passenger car has 3-6 degrees of caster,and your higher end "touring" cars will have 6-10 degrees of caster.


Got it. I was working on the basis that the knuckle was the determining factor, not the cam bolts on the LCAs.

I may end up farming this part of it out. I'm not sure that I can get it sufficiently in range with what I have to work with in the driveway.

_________________
2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
245/75R16 BFG TA KO2s
OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
V6 Airbox


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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:30 pm 
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rancherman wrote:
Have you tried rotating the tires? possible you are fighting a 'wear pattern' from previous set up.. These are the tires from pre lift days?
I'd let it settle-in for a couple thousand miles, and return for another alignment.


Good point, and haven't tried a rotation yet. These are the same tyres from before the lift, but they were rotated around 2000 miles previously. That said, the idea certainly makes sense.

_________________
2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
245/75R16 BFG TA KO2s
OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
V6 Airbox


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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:07 pm 
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casm wrote:

I may end up farming this part of it out. I'm not sure that I can get it sufficiently in range with what I have to work with in the driveway.

It's impossible to set camber/caster in your driveway without a alignment rack.


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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:00 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
casm wrote:

I may end up farming this part of it out. I'm not sure that I can get it sufficiently in range with what I have to work with in the driveway.

It's impossible to set camber/caster in your driveway without a alignment rack.


Booked it in today; I have no problem admitting when I've run up against the full extent of my personal capabilities. Should be sorted out by this time next week.

_________________
2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
245/75R16 BFG TA KO2s
OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
V6 Airbox


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 Post subject: Re: Lift's done - need to fine-tune steering
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:20 pm 
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Finally got it sorted out today. Took it to a local shop with experience in lifting KJs and they were able to set the caster properly.

Had them send it out for another alignment, and it now drives really nicely. Very happy with how it turned out.

_________________
2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
245/75R16 BFG TA KO2s
OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
V6 Airbox


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