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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2022 11:03 pm 
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The new Fuel Pressure Solenoid arrived today (Fri) just in time for a Sat installation.

Here are some pictures of the business end of the solenoid...
Image

Image

Image
The tip is solid as can be. I thought there might be some wiggle room for mass assembly purposes.

Just a thought... ...regarding the 20,000 PSI in the fuel rail, the tip of the solenoid is only 1/8" (3mm) in diameter. It does not need to be strong enough to hold back 20,000 pounds of force. The tip is only 1/8", which means 64 tips will fit in the space of one square inch. It only has to hold back 1/64th of the full pressure, so around 312 pounds of fuel pressure.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2022 8:53 pm 
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CaptainDean wrote:
layback40 wrote:
You are forgetting Dean/WWD that you are not dealing with a straight ohmic device. Its a coil so you need to consider it as an inductive device & so the current will be determined by that.

Thanks layback40, that's a good reminder.

Coils ARE interesting devices, they can be used to induce voltage and/or current and/or magnetism into another inductive device (transformer) or ferrous metal, they can smooth a desired range of frequencies (choke), can generate an electromagnet force (solenoid/electromagnet), and more. Coils can also be a receiving device in all those same manners.

Motors are made of coils and are also influenced by Electromotive Force (EMF). EMF causes the counteractive current in the motor coils to reduce input current once the magnetic armature is spinning -- by inducing magnetic energy back into the coils (windings). Coils can also make heat, such as in Induction Cooking.

In our circumstance, the coil is being used as an electromagnet to apply force against the fuel pressure in the fuel rail. There are no moving or rotating magnets or magnetic fields immediately near the solenoid so it should not be greatly affected by counter EMF. However, if there is an AC component to the current energizing the solenoid, then the rising and falling magnetic field being generated by the solenoid will have some affect on the current.

Just for fun, take a magnet (off the refrigerator) and drop it down through 3 pipes. A steel pipe, a copper pipe, a PVC pipe. It will act differently in each one. It will immediately click to the side of the steel pipe, it will drop slowly through a copper pipe, it will drop straight through a PVC pipe. The falling magnet causes counter EMF in the copper pipe which slows the fall of the magnet.

Sorry to be a Know-It-All. I've spent 50 years in electronics.

Dean.



So are you saying that the 5v supply is DC and there is no AC component ?

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 3:06 am 
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I measured the voltage today while running and the voltage raised a little with RPM, but was otherwise steady DC. The voltage started at 3.8VDC upon engine start, and went up to 4.3VDC with just a little throttle. If there was an AC component, such as Pulse Width Modulation, I could not see it on my meter. PWM could have been responsible for the small voltage increase. I'll measure it again and put the meter on AC.

After a couple of starts, the starter solenoid went bad and there were no more starts. Sounds like that will be my Sunday chore.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 12:21 pm 
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CaptainDean wrote:
I measured the voltage today while running and the voltage raised a little with RPM, but was otherwise steady DC. The voltage started at 3.8VDC upon engine start, and went up to 4.3VDC with just a little throttle. If there was an AC component, such as Pulse Width Modulation, I could not see it on my meter. PWM could have been responsible for the small voltage increase. I'll measure it again and put the meter on AC.
After a couple of starts, the starter solenoid went bad and there were no more starts. Sounds like that will be my Sunday chore.
Dean.

So that begs the question;
Does the 5v supply remain constant to the solenoid and the ground is the variable which is modulated by the ECM?
or
Is the ground at the sensor a hard constant hard ground and the ECM modulates the voltage signal going to the solenoid for pressure control?
or
Does the ECM modulate both the supply voltage and the ground signals for the solenoid to control the fuel rail pressure?

I have studied both the 05 & 06 FSM wiring diagram's and it is impossible to tell from them alone as to how the actual control takes place.
Wish I had an oscilloscope like a PICO, we could learn a lot!.... :banghead:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 3:55 pm 
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Since the ECM has two dedicated wires to the Fuel Pressure Solenoid and not referenced to chassis ground, it doesn't really matter whether the 5v supply is modulated or the ground lead is modulated. The end effect is the same. You are right, a scope would answer all the questions.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


Last edited by CaptainDean on Tue May 10, 2022 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 10:47 pm 
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Saw something interesting while changing the Fuel Pressure Solenoid. The tip, when magnified though an eye loupe, has hundreds of tiny holes in it, or at least tiny dimples. I used the eye loupe over the smart phone camera lens to capture this picture. The phone would zoom in to 9X magnification, and the eye loupe added another 7X.

Image

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 11:09 pm 
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CaptainDean wrote:
Image
Just a thought... ...regarding the 20,000 PSI in the fuel rail, the tip of the solenoid is only 1/8" (3mm) in diameter. It does not need to be strong enough to hold back 20,000 pounds of force. The tip is only 1/8", which means 64 tips will fit in the space of one square inch. It only has to hold back 1/64th of the full pressure, so around 312 pounds of fuel pressure.

Dean.

After handling the Fuel Pressure Solenoid in my own hands, and seeing where it seals within the Fuel Rail, I have to adjust my thinking about the pressure it is subjected to. The hole down the center of the Fuel Rail is 10mm, which is roughly 3/8". So the pressure applied to the solenoid is more like 7,500 pounds. (20,000 X .375 = 7500)
Image

Image

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2022 2:39 am 
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CaptainDean wrote:
I've come to understand how this Fuel Pressure Solenoid works, although I cannot see the inside. The hundreds of holes in the tip are the inlet passageways for fuel to get into the solenoid valve. These holes are approximately the same size as the holes in the Fuel Injector tips.

The part of the Fuel Solenoid Valve that we can see is only the housing. The housing has a metal to metal seal against the inside of the fuel rail -- nothing moves on the outside. I believe the actual solenoid valve is inside the entire assembly.

Regarding the fuel pressure against the valve, I don't know. The size of the inlet port of the actual valve may be quite small, and inside the tip with the hundreds of holes.

Image
Image
Image
Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 2:49 am 
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Replaced the starter solenoid today. I have another starter laying around from a spare 2.8L engine. The spare motor is not as good as the one from the Jeep, so I just swapped the solenoid and reinstalled the starter.

The engine cranks now but still doesn't start. There is something that is not right but I haven't found it yet.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 7:20 pm 
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Location: Australia
CaptainDean wrote:
Replaced the starter solenoid today. I have another starter laying around from a spare 2.8L engine. The spare motor is not as good as the one from the Jeep, so I just swapped the solenoid and reinstalled the starter.

The engine cranks now but still doesn't start. There is something that is not right but I haven't found it yet.

Dean.


Hi Dean, have you tried giving it a squirt of starter fluid in the airbox?
That way you will know if it runs once it fires up.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 11:19 pm 
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Thanks layback40,

I had not thought of that -- I'll try it.

First, I'm inspecting the wiring harness across the back of the engine bay. Pulling all the tape and original covering off and looking for problem splices, etc. I'll put it all back together with new plastic wire bundle covering.

Bought a new Fuel Pressure Sensor but it's not due here until June 2nd.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 1:40 am 
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Removed and exposed the entire engine compartment wiring harness. Inspected every wire and every splice. All seems to be in excellent condition. Changed the fuel filter, primed and attempted a series of starts. NO FRIGGIN LUCK.
:dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: 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:furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead: :dizzy: :furious: :banghead:

Whew. That felt good.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 4:14 pm 
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Take it easy Dean!!
The sun will rise tomorrow!!
My prediction is that you have an issue in the HP pump.
If it starts on starter fluid, then you probably have an issue with the pressure control valve in the pump.
Not the solenoid that has the electrical connection.
There is a spring controlled valve inside the pump that stops fuel recycle when fuel pressure from the LP feed pump inside the CP3 is low.
I believe that I have the same issue with my 2006 jeep.
Probably when I get to it I will fit a 100 -130 psi pump in the tank.
That is what the pressure control valve controls the pressure at.
Brains trust here has told me not a good idea.
You could try the CP3 off your spare engine.
Good luck!!

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 10:11 pm 
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Ok, the calm after the storm has arrived. It's running again. :BANANA:

At first it would idle nicely but not run up above 1350 RPM. Eventually coaxed it to 2000, and finally running steadily at all RPMs.

The biggest change was un-reversing the two identical plugs at the back of the engine: Fuel Pressure Solenoid plug and Injector #4 plug. I thought it would start up right away but no, it had to work out some air bubbles in the hard lines to the injectors. Using some starting fluid progressed this problem along to a solution. Thank you layback40!

Well, I've been here before :oops: , but I still want to thank everyone for all the help, ideas, and support. But, I'm not going to lift the hood again until it's time to change the oil. ...if it's not broke, don't fix it :!:

I don't trust it right off the bat, so I'll run it up and down my own street every day until I'm feeling secure enough to take it on the highway. (A highway here is a 45 MPH road with 2 lanes in each direction.)

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 7:58 pm 
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CaptainDean wrote:
Ok, the calm after the storm has arrived. It's running again. :BANANA:

It amazes me how quickly joyous times come and go. I drove the jeep up and down my own street several times yesterday and it ran flawlessly. Today is a new day and it began to sputter and cough even before getting out of the driveway.

Checked the filter and water came out. So I got the transfer pump and drained the tank into a single 26-gallon plastic drum. Then transferred the diesel into 3 clear glass carboys. What the blazes is that stuff ??!!?? It all came out of the same tank. The blond pineapple ale was the first to come out, the small amount on the left was the remainder that came out last.
Image

So, what is your opinion?
    Should I take the take out and clean it further?
    Should I just refill with 5-gallons fresh diesel and see what happens?
    Is the a method to clean the tank in place before refilling?
Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 8:49 pm 
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CaptainDean wrote:
Image

So, I did a little web searching for contaminated diesel fuel. Mine is full of water. Here is a chart about letting the fuel sit and stratify.
Image

I was surprised by the color being the same. I think I'll use the worst two carboys of bad fuel to kill weeds.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 11:11 pm 
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Glad you got it running and found the problem! :BANANA:
You are not the first to get those two connectors reversed. :banghead:

As to the fuel, I would discard it all and start with fresh new diesel fuel and add plenty of Diesel Kleen to the tank as well along with a new fuel filter.
If you have an intank fuel pump installed, (don't remember if you ever put one in) you can jumper the relay connection in the Power Distribution Center under the hood and run the pump continuously to empty out the tank to get most everything out of it.
Otherwise, dropping the tank and cleaning it out may be your best bet if something was growing in it.

As to the different colors, remember, water goes to the bottom and fuel goes to the top and anything in emulsion (mixed) layers in the middle.
You driving it around probably mixed everything up.

THE BIG QUESION! How did all that water get into your tank? :shock: :shock: :shock:

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Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
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GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount

98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2022 12:15 am 
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Posts: 693
Thanks WWDiesel,

All that diesel is sitting in the carboys settling into layers of fuel and water, and possibly microbial growth and sludge. I'm guessing there will not be very much sludge. I expect to know tomorrow how much is fuel and how much is water. It might take longer than only over night to settle out.

As far as 'how that water got in there' is a good question. The local gas station is owned by a rat bag sorta guy, so it wouldn't surprise me if that was the main source. People generally buy diesel and drive away, so any water stays in solution and gets burned along with the fuel. The retailer enjoys selling a little water along with very expensive fuel. Secondly, this Liberty has been sitting for four years so all that water has settled out.

Thank you for suggesting Diesel Kleen. There are so many additives available, it's difficult to know which one to buy.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 7:12 am 
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Posts: 693
Weeee !! What a ride. 4.5 magnitude Richter earthquake at 11:50 PM. I was deafened by the sound of the underground rock crushing against itself -- sounded like a long and continuous explosion. Epicenter was only a 1 mile away. No damage that I can see in the darkness of night.

During the day earlier today, I pumped 1 1/2 gallons of near pure diesel into the tank, then immediately pumped it back out. Got a little more water out in the mix. Put 2 1/2 gallons fresh diesel in the tank and started the engine. Sputtered a few more bits of water out of the fuel system but otherwise cleared the rest out.

I'll start it up again in the morning and see what happens.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 5:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am
Posts: 693
CaptainDean wrote:
Weeee !! What a ride. 4.5 magnitude Richter earthquake at 11:50 PM. I was deafened by the sound of the underground rock crushing against itself -- sounded like a long and continuous direct lightning strike or explosion. Epicenter was only a 3 mile aways. No damage that I can see in the darkness of night.

Earlier during the day today, I pumped 1 1/2 gallons of near pure diesel into the tank, then immediately pumped it back out. Got a little more water out in the mix. Put 2 1/2 gallons fresh diesel in the tank and started the engine. Sputtered a few more bits of water out of the fuel system but otherwise cleared the rest out.

I'll start it up again in the morning and see what happens.

Dean.

In the light of the morning, I found there was no damage from the earthquake. A few items fell off shelves and a table, but no breakage. A distant neighbor walked by and he described it the same as me; 'sounded like a long explosion'.

Engine started ok but still sputtered until a bit of entrained water was worked out. Added 2 1/2 more gallons of new diesel fuel, this time with a good dose of Diesel Kleen. Have to let this run and clean the entire fuel system. Probably take about 50 miles of running to accomplish this.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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