Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

layback40 · **Posted:** Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:47 pm

Thanks Dean.
My old Mercedes (1981, 300D) was a farm car & looked it! At that time, it had done about 700,000miles. The old 5 cylinder iron head non-turbo engine was indestructible. The only electronics was the radio!
There were many stories of them being purchased new on the edge of the outback in Australia. The farmer would get a few cartons of filters with it & it would not be seen again until it had done at least 500,000 miles.
You had to adjust the tappets at the start of each winter, or they didn't like starting. Exhaust valves only had about 2 thou clearance. I used a hair dryer blowing into the air intake one cold morning early in the season to get it started.
It was the shaft moving sideways that was doing the banging.
With the windows (manual winders) up you could hardly hear it. Windows down & you thought there was a 50-gallon drum bouncing down the road behind you.
The shaft had plastic disks attached to the ends of the shaft so when it moved sideways it would not be metal on metal when it reached the end of the travel.
With the boot gone & dust entering. The shaft soon became loose & the disks destroyed.
It banged whenever you accelerated. Must have been the splines having a slight angle on them.
I thought your noise was more of a click. The front wheel drive mini's from the 60's used to click on full lock when the CV's were worn.

I am surprised the rail pressure control solenoid is closed when no power. Thought it would be a safety thing to release the pressure when the engine was shut down.
There is one on my other CRD, so will test it.
Another Bosch number for it is 0 281 002 507 makes it much easier to find. It was used in many applications.
I hope the ECM 5v output is able to cope with a short. Don't wish to have it repaired.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

layback40 wrote:

Thanks Dean.
My old Mercedes (1981, 300D) was a farm car & looked it! At that time, it had done about 700,000miles. The old 5 cylinder iron head non-turbo engine was indestructible. The only electronics was the radio!
There were many stories of them being purchased new on the edge of the outback in Australia. The farmer would get a few cartons of filters with it & it would not be seen again until it had done at least 500,000 miles.
You had to adjust the tappets at the start of each winter, or they didn't like starting. Exhaust valves only had about 2 thou clearance. I used a hair dryer blowing into the air intake one cold morning early in the season to get it started.
It was the shaft moving sideways that was doing the banging.
With the windows (manual winders) up you could hardly hear it. Windows down & you thought there was a 50-gallon drum bouncing down the road behind you.
The shaft had plastic disks attached to the ends of the shaft so when it moved sideways it would not be metal on metal when it reached the end of the travel.
With the boot gone & dust entering. The shaft soon became loose & the disks destroyed.
It banged whenever you accelerated. Must have been the splines having a slight angle on them.
I thought your noise was more of a click. The front wheel drive mini's from the 60's used to click on full lock when the CV's were worn.

I am surprised the rail pressure control solenoid is closed when no power. Thought it would be a safety thing to release the pressure when the engine was shut down.
There is one on my other CRD, so will test it.
Another Bosch number for it is 0 281 002 507 makes it much easier to find. It was used in many applications.
I hope the ECM 5v output is able to cope with a short. Don't wish to have it repaired.

layback40,

Your stories of the old Mercedes diesels are priceless.

The Jeep fuel rail needs a closed fuel regulator valve when turned off because otherwise the fuel rail would drain out. That would require the high pressure pump to refill and re-pressurize the rail before starting the engine. So, it's better to start with a full fuel rail and already under pressure if everything is working right. A slow starting engine might have a slight leak somewhere allowing the fuel rail to bleed down.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:39 am

CaptainDean wrote:

Your stories of the old Mercedes diesels are priceless.

The Jeep fuel rail needs a closed fuel regulator valve when turned off because otherwise the fuel rail would drain out. That would require the high pressure pump to refill and re-pressurize the rail before starting the engine. So, it's better to start with a full fuel rail and already under pressure if everything is working right. A slow starting engine might have a slight leak somewhere allowing the fuel rail to bleed down.

Dean.

A hint of success while you guys were sleeping!
I wrapped the end of the dead regulator with aluminum foil (4 layers) & then wound some very fine stainless-steel wire on it to seal it up tight. Installed it & plugged the other regulator in so the ECM would think all was good.
After a few seconds of cranking the output voltage from the rail pressure sensor started to climb from about .5v to 1.8v, 1v is required for there to be high enough rail pressure to start. Stopped cranking so it did not start.
I guess the sealing surfaces get eroded over time with over 25,000 psi diesel cutting across them.
Looks like I will be getting a new one from the EU, way overpriced in Australia.

On another note, while I was out at the jeep crawled under it with a tape measure. The left-hand front shaft is 6cm between the ends of the boots with the car sitting on the ground, the right-hand one is 12.5cm. Dont know if that helps Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

layback40 wrote:

A hint of success while you guys were sleeping!
I wrapped the end of the dead regulator with aluminum foil (4 layers) & then wound some very fine stainless-steel wire on it to seal it up tight. Installed it & plugged the other regulator in so the ECM would think all was good.
After a few seconds of cranking the output voltage from the rail pressure sensor started to climb from about .5v to 1.8v, 1v is required for there to be high enough rail pressure to start. Stopped cranking so it did not start.
I guess the sealing surfaces get eroded over time with over 25,000 psi diesel cutting across them.
Looks like I will be getting a new one from the EU, way overpriced in Australia.

On another note, while I was out at the jeep crawled under it with a tape measure. The left-hand front shaft is 6cm between the ends of the boots with the car sitting on the ground, the right-hand one is 12.5cm. Don't know if that helps Dean.

layback40,

Sounds like you're making progress with fuel pressure. Glad to hear it. You should be ♪on the road again♫ with a new fuel pressure regulator. Good to know you can get a price break through European Union (EU?). It should last the life of the Jeep.

Google converted your CM measurements to Inches. I haven't measured the left-hand half-shaft but your right-hand one equals the same as my longer two half-shafts. BTW, while you were sleeping, I drove mine around the neighborhood and it seemed fine, but when I got out onto the main road the half-shaft popped off of the intermediate shaft. I think the worn out looseness of the mating of those parts is too much for the spring "C" clip to keep them together. With a new Intermediate shaft and a new "C" clip, maybe the longer versions will also work.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:30 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

layback40,

Sounds like you're making progress with fuel pressure. Glad to hear it. You should be ♪on the road again♫ with a new fuel pressure regulator. Good to know you can get a price break through European Union (EU?). It should last the life of the Jeep.

Google converted your CM measurements to Inches. I haven't measured the left-hand half-shaft but your right-hand one equals the same as my longer two half-shafts. BTW, while you were sleeping, I drove mine around the neighborhood and it seemed fine, but when I got out onto the main road the half-shaft popped off of the intermediate shaft. I think the worn-out looseness of the mating of those parts is too much for the spring "C" clip to keep them together. With a new Intermediate shaft and a new "C" clip, maybe the longer versions will also work.

Dean.

Dont know about how long it will last. The one I am getting is not for a jeep. It's for a Hyundai. Same part number as the old one. Tells me it's been replaced before. The jeep has done about 150,000 miles. It's not due here until after Christmas. So, lots of time to make sure all is ready for it.
Over here it's near impossible to buy a tape measure with inches. Need to divide cm by 2.54 to get inches. 5cm is about 2". I find the '4' bit can be useful as using a metric/ imperial mix can give tighter fits.
Please realize that those lengths are just 'in place' lengths with the jeep on the ground & wheels straight ahead. Probably close to the compressed length as the shafts are very straight in that position.
The splines should be reasonably tight. Sounds like either the shaft splines or the splines in the CV are very worn. Could also have a rounded C clip groove. The splines in my old Mercedes were very loose as a lot of dirt got in with the failed boot. The geometry of it prevented it coming apart.
Some very heavy grease may help.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

I got tired of waiting for the Intermediate Shaft from JEGS.com so I cancelled that order. I may have shot myself in the foot. However, I placed an order through Automotive Stuff.com and they're responding with 25-30 day lead time. That's a long time to wait so I'll simply remove my half-shaft and drive without one. Just have to plug the hole in the front differential to prevent water, dirt, rocks and lava from getting into it.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:48 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

I got tired of waiting for the Intermediate Shaft from JEGS.com so I cancelled that order. I may have shot myself in the foot. However, I placed an order through Automotive Stuff.com and they're responding with 25-30 day lead time. That's a long time to wait so I'll simply remove my half-shaft and drive without one. Just have to plug the hole in the front differential to prevent water, dirt, rocks and lava from getting into it.

Dean.

You could leave the CV in the diff & just plug the hole in the boot with a piece of broom handle. The outer end probably needs the CV internals to be removed.

Does ww or you have any information about the relationship between the output of the rail pressure sensor (volts) and the actual rail pressure (PSI, Bar or whatever)?

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

layback40,

I don't have this from authority, but here is my rambling...

Case 1: The ECM used +5vDC as maximum in it's signals and measurements, so it would seem that +5v on the fuel pressure sensor would match up with ~25,000 PSI, and of course 0V with 0 PSI. That could correlate to a scale of 5,000 PSI per volt on the sensor. If that were the case, then a properly running engine would provide about 4.5v signal. (But I don't think that is the case. Also this scale does not allow much for sensing over-pressure situations.)

Case 2: However, if it uses 50,000 PSI as maximum measurement at +5v, then scale would be 10,000 PSI per volt. A measurement of +2v would correlate to ~20,000 PSI. (That matches up pretty closely to 1.8v signal indicating ~18,000 PSI which would probably get the engine running. And there would be plenty of measurement room to sense over pressure situations and shut down the engine for safety.)

Case 3: If the 1.8v were indicating 23,000 PSI, then full scale 5v would indicate 63,000 PSI. That is possible but I believe unlikely.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:33 am

CaptainDean wrote:

layback40,

I don't have this from authority, but here is my rambling...

Case 1: The ECM used +5vDC as maximum in it's signals and measurements, so it would seem that +5v on the fuel pressure sensor would match up with ~25,000 PSI, and of course 0V with 0 PSI. That could correlate to a scale of 5,000 PSI per volt on the sensor. If that were the case, then a properly running engine would provide about 4.5v signal. (But I don't think that is the case. Also this scale does not allow much for sensing over-pressure situations.)

Case 2: However, if it uses 50,000 PSI as maximum measurement at +5v, then scale would be 10,000 PSI per volt. A measurement of +2v would correlate to ~20,000 PSI. (That matches up pretty closely to 1.8v signal indicating ~18,000 PSI which would probably get the engine running. And there would be plenty of measurement room to sense over pressure situations and shut down the engine for safety.)

Case 3: If the 1.8v were indicating 23,000 PSI, then full scale 5v would indicate 63,000 PSI. That is possible but I believe unlikely.

Dean.

Thanks Dean,
One of the many diagnostics I have read says that 1v during cranking is required as an output from the Rail Pressure sensor for the engine to start.

I get about .5v without cranking, that is no pressure. About the same with my failed Pressure Control Valve while cranking.

Most Bosch sensors don't use 0 to 5 v for output. More likely to use .5 to 4.5 v as it avoids any issues at the very ends of the scale. Not certain though.

Another PDF I have in the name of Tommy Atkinson & Clayton Renth (you probably have a copy), has a screen shot of a DBR 111 for Wide Open Throttle.
It shows fuel pressure set point of 23,196 PSI (nominal 23,000); I suspect that is programmed into the ECM.
Fuel pressure of 22,849 PSI ; probably the capacity of the CP3 at WOT flow of fuel at whatever speed the jeep is going at.
Fuel pressure volts 4.05v ; probably the rail pressure sensor output voltage.
Pressure control valve VLT (voltage?) 2.1v ; not sure about this as the Pressure Control Valve (Solenoid?) gets a pulse signal and at WOT the valve should be shut. Especially as the rail pressure is below the setpoint. Maybe it needs to get to say 4.5v before the signal is strong enough to open the valve?
Yet in another screen shot, for deceleration, shows the PCV voltage as .69v. I would have thought that with your foot off the throttle at speed, the PCV would be open to relieve fuel pressure as the injectors would not be using very much fuel. I guess the Fuel Quantity Solenoid on the CP3 must take care of that.
These values along with what I have seen on mine, suggest that .5v is 0PSI & 4.1v is 23,000PSI. This gives about 3,200PSI for a reading of 1v.
I don't know what the minimum pressure required for the injectors to pop is.
Maybe someone can comment (ww?).
I got scared when I saw the output of the rail pressure sensor get to 1.5v quickly, so I stopped cranking. Maybe when I get a chance I will try again & see how high it goes while cranking. It may start. I don't wish for anything to go bang.

The impression that I have had previously is that the Pressure Control Valve (Solenoid) on the end of the rail is basically a safety valve to prevent rail overpressure. The actual pressure is controlled by the Fuel Quantity solenoid.
Not sure if the CP3 has a mechanical over pressure valve as well.

Any comments are always appreciated.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

layback40,

Thanks for your comments, it has reminded me of my industrial controls days. It is smart to not use 0v = 0 PSI because ground (0v) is often filled with electronic noise thus making 0 PSI not completely distinguishable. Utilizing 0.5v is smart because a half-volt is usually greater than the noise measured at ground. Industrial measurements often use 4-20mA which uses 4mA as zero, and 20mA as maximum, all for the same reasons. Also, a reading of 0mA or 0v would indicate a malfunction.

Regarding your text which uses "pop" referring to the injectors. Mechanical injectors use calibrated injector springs & spacers to make the injector pop at a predefined pressure. Our electronic injectors us a pulse width modulated signal to "fire" the injectors at a precise time, and for a precise time depending on demand. Here is the description from a few months ago.

CaptainDean wrote:

High pressure fuel is held constant at 1 in the drawing. It floods the entire white area inside the injector body. Same as a toilet tank flapper valve, the NOZZLE NEEDLE is held down by fuel pressure on the top and sides of the NOZZLE NEEDLE, but not on the bottom. Spring tension in the top of the body holds the BALL tight against the port leading to the FUEL RETURN LINE, thus keeping the fuel trapped inside the injector body.

When the ELECTROMAGNETIC COIL gets excited with a pulse, it pulls up against the springs holding the BALL against the port leading to the FUEL RETURN LINE. This allows some pressure to be released at point 2 and also allows the NOZZLE NEEDLE to rise up and out of the INJECTION NOZZLE.

With the NOZZLE NEEDLE no longer blocking the path through the INJECTION NOZZLE, a tiny amount of high pressure fuel can be released through the INJECTION NOZZLE 3 causing the spray.

If this is a clear enough explanation, then you can understand how Dirt, Carbon and Varnish would cause the injector to leak, thus preventing the fuel rail from building up pressure fully.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

CaptainDean wrote:

I got tired of waiting for the Intermediate Shaft from JEGS.com so I cancelled that order. I may have shot myself in the foot. However, I placed an order through Automotive Stuff.com and they're responding with 25-30 day lead time. That's a long time to wait so I'll simply remove my half-shaft and drive without one. Just have to plug the hole in the front differential to prevent water, dirt, rocks and lava from getting into it.

Dean.

Automotive Stuff just notified me that their manufacturer (apparently Crown Automotive) does not ship to Hawaii. They have offered to send it through Canada Post for $104. I told them to cancel the order and refund my purchase. Part of the purchase text was "no returns" due to a part not fitting. We'll see what happens.

In the meantime until I do get an intermediate shaft, I'll remove the left-hand shaft and have a 2WD Liberty with Granny gear.

Anyone know of a supplier that will sell the $89 - $105 intermediate shaft without 'shafting me' on shipping?

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2022 4:21 am

CaptainDean wrote:

Automotive Stuff just notified me that their manufacturer (apparently Crown Automotive) does not ship to Hawaii. They have offered to send it through Canada Post for $104. I told them to cancel the order and refund my purchase. Part of the purchase text was "no returns" due to a part not fitting. We'll see what happens.

In the meantime until I do get an intermediate shaft, I'll remove the left-hand shaft and have a 2WD Liberty with Granny gear.

Anyone know of a supplier that will sell the $89 - $105 intermediate shaft without 'shafting me' on shipping?

Dean.

So, you are concerned about being shafted when getting a shaft?? LOL!!

You may wish to mix & match what you have.
If the shaft is coming out, the clip is not doing its job.
May need to just replace the clip or the component that it locks into.
Probably use a different shaft (longer?).
Just a thought.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

Replaced the bolts (#4) on the front right & left spindles (#5). Changed from the 6-spline head to the 12-point head. The 6-spline is a type whereas the socket slips off easily making it tough to tighten them fully. The 12-point fits a standard 12-point socket snugly and they tightened up very well.

With the half-shaft and boots out of the way on the right side, access to the spindle bolts was very easy. Didn't even have to jack up the beast. Tomorrow I hope to remove the left side half-shaft; of course I'll have to jack up the beast for that.

Got the Grade 8 bolts from BelMetric.com, SKU BTP12X40BLK. "12-point Flange Bolt 12.9 Black M12x40". These are the course thread of 1.75 threads per millimeter.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

I've driven the beast for about 50 - 75 miles with no problems ! Yeah :BANANA:

except one.

Notice the fuel gauge is stuck at full and the odometer is not advancing.
The AntiSkid light is on, which doesn't seem to have a cause.
The tire pressure light is on, which doesn't seem to have a cause.
The engine Malfunction Indicator light is on, but I have not deleted the EGR system yet.

I know this signifies a problem that the computer is trying to tell me. I don't remember the causes of this symptom. Anyone shed some light on this one? Where do I look to find this in the troubleshooting guide?

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 28, 2022 1:44 am

CaptainDean wrote:

I've driven the beast for about 50 - 75 miles with no problems ! Yeah :BANANA:

except one.

Notice the fuel gauge is stuck at full and the odometer is not advancing.
The AntiSkid light is on, which doesn't seem to have a cause.
The tire pressure light is on, which doesn't seem to have a cause.
The engine Malfunction Indicator light is on, but I have not deleted the EGR system yet.

I know this signifies a problem that the computer is trying to tell me. I don't remember the causes of this symptom. Anyone shed some light on this one? Where do I look to find this in the troubleshooting guide?

Dean.

Fuel gauge issue you can check out the sender when you get around to installing a pump in the tank.
Not sure where the odo gets its signal from, Interesting that it is not the same signal as speedo.
Anti-skid maybe the same sensor as the odo.
Tire pressure light is a pain. If you are concerned, I think you can remove wheels, one at a time & work out the one that is a problem.
The CEL light on is standard equipment. Maybe worth checking codes.
You knew all that Dean!
Belated Christmas wishes & have a happy New Year!

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

layback40 wrote:

Fuel gauge issue you can check out the sender when you get around to installing a pump in the tank.
Not sure where the odo gets its signal from, Interesting that it is not the same signal as speedo.
Anti-skid maybe the same sensor as the odo.
Tire pressure light is a pain. If you are concerned, I think you can remove wheels, one at a time & work out the one that is a problem.
The CEL light on is standard equipment. Maybe worth checking codes.
You knew all that Dean!
Belated Christmas wishes & have a happy New Year!

Thanks layback40,

Yes, I know the systems have their normal sources, but the computer handles all these indicators and gauges. The computer also sends out clues beyond the codes that we read off the scanners. The odometer not advancing is one of those clues. They can be in combination with other abnormalities on the dashboard.

There is one abnormality that drives the speedometer needle way up and down while the car is sitting still. I think that one has to do with a malfunctioning alternator.

I'm hoping someone recalls where these oddities are described.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

Does anybody have a source for replacement connectors for the engine fuel sensors?

I've looked around but only found the Injector connectors

The beast stopped today and luckily I had my code scanner with me. Code 2494 for Fuel Pressure Regulator circuit. Messed with the connectors and wiring to ensure they were connected, secure and sound. After 3rd "messing" it started up and ran fine again.

My fuel gauge is working fine. It was pegged high for 4 days driving 24 miles RT so I thought it was broken... finally started coming down but only to 7/8 full or maybe less. Turns out I'm getting 25+ MPG. Refuelled and it only took 5 gallons.

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:55 am

Go here for most any Mopar connector repair kit.
Mopar Connection Repair Kits:

Then select year model and Jeep Liberty, then find the connector name. Most times this is the same as listed in the FSM
Once you identify the Mopar Repair Kit Part Number, you can Google it find it and purchase it. :google:

One Example:
FUEL QUANTITY SOLENOID (DIESEL) - BLACK 2 WAY
Full Repair Kit: 05143779AB
I found this one at: Factory Chrysler Parts -- https://www.factorychryslerparts.com/pr ... 779AB.html
There were plenty more found, sometimes even on Amazon.

Play around with it, you can find most any connector repair kit. :wink:

Happy Hunting!
:SOMBRERO:

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

WWDiesel wrote:

Go here for most any Mopar connector repair kit.
Mopar Connection Repair Kits:

Then select year model and Jeep Liberty, then find the connector name. Most times this is the same as listed in the FSM
Once you identify the Mopar Repair Kit Part Number, you can Google it find it and purchase it. :google:

One Example:
FUEL QUANTITY SOLENOID (DIESEL) - BLACK 2 WAY
Full Repair Kit: 05143779AB
I found this one at: Factory Chrysler Parts -- https://www.factorychryslerparts.com/pr ... 779AB.html
There were plenty more found, sometimes even on Amazon.

Play around with it, you can find most any connector repair kit. :wink:

Happy Hunting!
:SOMBRERO:

Thank you WWDiesel !!

This will get me down the road.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

Hello everyone, I'm back !!

Gave myself a problem and I thought I'd share it, plus ask some advise. This is regarding the crankcase vent on the top of the engine and the hose that goes to the turbocharger. There has been much said about it and I think I found a simple solution, however I made a small mistake in my implementation of it.

My plan was to replace the factory hose with a larger one and lead the hose up hill some to allow blown-in crankcase oil to drip back into the top of the engine. I think it worked, but my mistake was allowing the hose to kink a little. This (I think) restricted the airflow and caused excessive pressure inside the engine. Thus, pushing the front main seal out enough to vent pressure and spew oil out.

A few weeks ago I noticed the engine was a quart low so I topped it off. More recently, I changed the oil & filter and all still seemed well. However, during this last week, I heard rumbling from the front that I thought was gear train noises. Upon inspection I found oil covering the bottom of the engine. Checked my newly changed oil level and found it not touching the dip stick. One quart brought it to the bottom of the stick. 2 more brought it up to the correct level.

Today I'm digging into the beast. Fortunately the front main seal is not that biog of job to access. I'll keep you all informed as I progress over this 3-day weekend.

The engine bay. All looks normal, unless you can pickout the kink in the breather hose.

Breather hose alone

Close up of kink in breather hose

Dean.

Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

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