Noisy Valvetrain? UPDATE

KJWildman · **Posted:** Mon May 31, 2010 5:21 pm

OK, so I shut it off and came in here before I really screw something up. I'm an electrician and a fabricator, been 15 yrs since I really worked on an engine. Dam new cars got me out of practice! :lol:

We'll start at the beginning. Last Wednesday ... I posted this:
"Drove it to work ... ran fine ... drove home for lunch ... ran fine ... back to work ... running fine ... home at 5 ... running fine ... til I got ready to pull in the driveway and it sputtered and died! low on gas but not out, didn't get any codes or anything but it wouldn't start. Finally got it started and it was missing like crazy. Making noises like I had a sticky lifter or something, maybe even worse the way it sounded! I thought " oh no, shades of Budke"! It was low enough on fuel that the light was on ( I know, shame on me! ) so I ran and got the can and put a couple more gallons in it. Finally got it restarted again after checking oil, wires, coolant. It finally threw me a code. ( kinda like throwing the dog a bone ) P302.
Gonna mess with it tomorrow and try to swap coil packs around and check the plugs but I guess on payday Friday I'll change out my 100k+mile 8year old plugs (my first set ) and get 6 coil packs and throw at it. All that custom fab work and I never even changed the plugs! "
So I drove the wife's car a couple days and on Saturday afternoon started changing the plugs and I went ahead and bought 6 new coil packs to put on. The old ones will go for trail fixes. After some nighbor problems I finally almost finished and we had a couple flash thunderstorms and didn't finish. Yesterday was Indy 500/Coca Cola 600 so nothing got done!

Now to today...

Went out and finished putting on the wires and tightened everything down. Started it up and it was still missing and giving me a P0302 Code (Cylinder 2 misfire) The ceramic on the plug I pulled out of this cylinder had broken and was sliding up and down the electrode and keeping this cylinder from firing. I thought putting new plugs would straighten it right out? Now we go back to the original post and I said it was knocking? IT'S STILL KNOCKING! Doesn't sound like a bottom end knock more like a bad valve spring or what we used to call a sticky lifter. Which I think IIRC would cause it to miss and the noise. I wondered if it was just the notorious idle knock so I brought the idle up (650) to about 1000 RPM to see if it built oil pressure and went away. It didn't. So anyway I shut her down and came in here for some friendly advice from my friends.

My problem is it started all of a sudden, No oil in the water or water in the oil.
Has anybody had valvetrain problems? Bad valve springs, broken valves, worn cam etc. ? Any body had their timing jump? Or would that make it miss on more than one cylinder? Is it time to do the top end on this thing?

1996xj · **Posted:** Mon May 31, 2010 8:19 pm

Larry, That don't sound good !! I think I would pull all the plug's disconnect all fuel injectors and run a compression test !!! I bet you have a mech. problem !!!

I did have Towstrap's right bank timing chain tentioner go bad and caused a upper end valve train tick !!! :wink:

KJWildman · **Posted:** Mon May 31, 2010 8:28 pm

Thanks Scott, that's what I was looking for. I'll have to see if BugginKJ has a compression tester he could let me use or help me use. How hard was that tensioner to change. What all on the front of the motor has to come off to get to it? Right side? It has 2?

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Mon May 31, 2010 8:30 pm

Well from the looks of 2 of your old plugs I'm betting on some internal engine damage.That pic of the plug with the electrode smashed down means the piston hit the spark plug(or something hit the plug).

KJWildman · **Posted:** Mon May 31, 2010 8:35 pm

Actually, that was a trick question! :lol:

I'm surprised you haven't seen that before TJ ! ( maybe you have ! ) The ceramic insulator cracked all the way around and slid down the electrode to the tip. I thought the same thing at first, then I turned the plug upright and the ceramic mmoved so I played with it and it just slid up and down. :lol:

BugginKJ · **Joined:** Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:35 pm **Posts:** 4576

KJWildman wrote:

Thanks Scott, that's what I was looking for. I'll have to see if BugginKJ has a compression tester he could let me use or help me use. How hard was that tensioner to change. What all on the front of the motor has to come off to get to it? Right side? It has 2?

I wish I did my man, that was one of the items stolen when we got ripped off :banghead:

Are the plugs complete? Meaning did any part of the plug(s) make it into the cylinder(s)? I could make it over to your place one of these nights this week or weekend if ya want. Just let me know Larry. Oh and sorry about earlier today on the phone. :SOMBRERO:

KJWildman · **Posted:** Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:52 pm

Hart, I got a compression tester. Got the KJ started today. It's still missing and valvetrain clatter. Someone suggested using Seafoam and it may free up a sticky lifter so I bought a can and did 1/3 in the oil, 1/3 in the fuel and did 1/3 in the vacuum line to the throttle body. Dang, didn't know my Jeep could smoke like that. Too bad it didn't help! :banghead:

I'll try the compression tester Thursday. ( It's supposed to rain tomorrow ) Maybe that will help diagnose the problem somehow. Hart, if you want to stop by and take a peek at it with me let me know. I'm supposed to get off work around 4:30 this week.

BugginKJ · **Joined:** Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:35 pm **Posts:** 4576

I should be out between 6-8 the rest of the week.

KJWildman · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:29 pm

Not good news!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm going to have to pull at least the right side head off! I guess I'll have to see when I get that far if I go ahead and pull them both. ( I know ... I'm already that far , right? )

Changed the plugs and all 6 coilpacks 1 week ago today and ran 1/3 bottle Seafoam through it, haven't started it all week. Pulled the plugs back out this morning to do the compression test and what I saw was not good. I pulled #5 and it looked perfect, gap good, nice tan, GOOD! #3 next, nice tan color looks good, went to #1 and looked a little rich, black, sooty.

Went around and pulled #6, again looked good, nice color, not too rich, Yanked out #4 and again got a rich black, sooty, this one worse than the other in #1. THEN, I got to #2. It's the one that had the moving ceramic that I pulled out last Saturday. I pulled the plug and this is what I saw : :shock:

WTF???????????????????

What would cause this? Do you know what caused this? I don't know what caused this, but that part must be down in the cylinder!!!!! I hope I haven't done any major damage to the block. I am going to have to pull that head off and check that cylinder just for safeties sake. I suppose in some world somewhere that part may have broken up and diintegrated in the cylinder and/or got spit out the exhaust valve, but I don't think I can take that chance. I don't have that knid of luck.

Has anyone here had the heads off yet? Is there anything I need to watch out for on these?

If its very bad at all ( block bad from pieces ratting around ) I may have another motor to drop in. :twisted:

I would need to PM Troy for some info tho' since even tho' he hasn't done it yet, He's researched it!!

It's just a little V6 : 2.8l Ford , +.060 forged flat top pistons, ported heads, .305 lift, 295 dur. Crane Cam, Edelbrock al. intake, Holley 650, Mallory Ignition parts, Hooker Super Comp Headers. 385Hp :twisted:

But it's just a little V6

Being an early '02 I don't have any ABS, ESP, CBS or NBC or any other letters on mine :SOMBRERO:

, actually shouldn't be too hard. But it's a 4 spd

Nice to dream alittle ain't it? Not sure I wanna pull apart the 1974 mustang II for it tho' . I've had it for 25yrs. now :juggle:

Maybe time for a change? Probably won't happen :roll:

................................................ right away. :ROTFL:

I didn't pick up the nickname Wildman for nothing!! :BANANA:

TAHOE · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:54 pm

Only thin gI could think of Larry to tear aprt the plug would be a valve flopping around in there, maybe the valve broke or retainer came off letting valve drop down in cyl. Hopefully not, cause that usually cause major piston damage too. Takes a lot of pics when ya tear it apart. My wife's is starting to make a noise similar to the "death knock" on start up, sometimes it does it, sometimes not. Hopefully if it goes, it will go within the next 5k miles since we have the 7/70.

tommudd · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:00 pm

But, ...if a valve or something dropped how would it remove the ceramic and center electrode and leave what it did. That is what I'm trying to determine. Has to be something in that cylinder though since its the same one that cracked it before.
Let me know when you get back home Larry and I'll run up...if I can remember where you live again! :banghead:

KJWildman · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:53 pm

I'm thinking like Tom, if it was a valve the whole plug would be destroyed not just the center electrode and ceramic. Maybe some kind of massive spark knock or detonation in that cylinder? But what would cause that in only one cylinder? I was starting to think timing chain, but wouldn't that make it miss on that whole bank?

RED_KJ_666 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:49 pm

I bought a 95 Neon with a mild top end knock... So I thought the car ran pretty good but had a light know, I changed the number 3 plug (looked the same as yours) I pinned it on a chunk of carbon moving around in there but then again it killed another plug about a day later. So I got really mad and a little drunk and ripped the crap outta the car turns out it had a broken ring that was floating around in there. I didn't do any measurable amount of damage to the block but beat up the head pretty baD

Budke · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:51 pm

Dun dun dunnnnnnnnn

Don't pull a budke!!! :goink:

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:03 pm

Yeah you need to pull the head.You will want to go to a Home Depot or any other like store and get some of those wood wedges that are used to shim windows and doors,take one and cut lengthwise to is is not as wide to shove down and lock the chain against the tensioner so it does not fall off the gears when you take off the cam sprocket.make sure the engine is on TDC #1 and all the timing marks are in the correct location.Sorry I can't seem to post pics from the FSM PDF file I have that shows the correct timing locations.Also make sure that the cam does not turn after you remove the sprocket.

As far as what could have happened,well alot could have but the chain had nothing to do with it,it's either a valve issue or better start finding a new engine.If you have access to a borescope you could have a look without tearing the head off.

stumpjumper_09 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:07 pm

Dude I'm just here to watch.

candpliberty · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:17 pm

Good luck, Larry! I hope it's something inexpensive!

KJWildman · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:23 pm

tjkj2002 wrote:

Yeah you need to pull the head.You will want to go to a Home Depot or any other like store and get some of those wood wedges that are used to shim windows and doors,take one and cut lengthwise to is is not as wide to shove down and lock the chain against the tensioner so it does not fall off the gears when you take off the cam sprocket.make sure the engine is on TDC #1 and all the timing marks are in the correct location.Sorry I can't seem to post pics from the FSM PDF file I have that shows the correct timing locations.Also make sure that the cam does not turn after you remove the sprocket.
As far as what could have happened,well alot could have but the chain had nothing to do with it,it's either a valve issue or better start finding a new engine.If you have access to a borescope you could have a look without tearing the head off.

Thanks Troy, the little trick with the wedgie is the little things I was looking for. Have other stuff going on tomorrow, but will start pulling stuff off and try to get the head off on Monday after work. BugginKJ (a "real" mechanic like you) and Tommudd may even stop by and laugh ... errrr ... help me with it! :-)r

Tom and I discussed the boroscope too, but I would still end up pulling the head, so might as well just get-r-done.

KJWildman · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:24 pm

candpliberty wrote:

Good luck, Larry! I hope it's something inexpensive!

Thanks, if not ............. :twisted:

.............. " Wildman" ...... :twisted:

Budke · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:30 pm

KJWildman wrote:

candpliberty wrote:

Good luck, Larry! I hope it's something inexpensive!

Thanks, if not ............. :twisted:

.............. " Wildman" ...... :twisted:

I know someone selling a Powerwagon for like 1.8k with a 440 in it. It's already got a racing cam in it..... :twisted:

Noisy Valvetrain? UPDATE

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