First off, detroit_doc needs to buy a TJ. Go ahead, I'm sure you'll love the consistency and precision of their well engineered (and credible ) lifts.
I wonder if I can ask to see his credentials? How does anyone know that he didn't just shove that Frankenlift strut tower up a KJ that he bought off of a body shop that just got done doing major body work to it (like maybe after a huge front-end collision)? How does anyone know that you even know how to install a lift...correctly?


I don't know how many times people like me and you will have to say that. If you replace the springs, it doesn't matter what year your KJ is.

I've had my Frankenlift (OME springs up front, Rancho shocks/struts, Skyjacker rear springs, hose clamped bumpstops up front) on for 20K miles with NO PROBLEMS. I did have an upper ball joint failure, but this was inevitably caused by my own installation errors (accidently slit the boots). I trusted All-J Products and will continue to do so. Their "bandaid" fix worked great for me as I have no UBJ contact and absolutely LOVE my Frankenlifted KJ.

I'm sure we'd all love it if one of detroit_doc's 'mechanical engineer friends' developed a lift that looked perfect on CAD, since we all know that you can tell how a lift is going to work before it ever touches the vehicle I wouldn't care if All-J Products was a bunch of baby-punching d-bags who love to draw complex things on bar napkins...I still love their products.

P.S. It's amazing how malicious people get when something goes wrong with their Jeep. I won't mention names but someone gets pissed and all the sudden a respected KJ vendor's designer is being called a high school drop-out. Oh...that's mature all right. I'm frikkin' 18 years old and that's the kind of BS I hear in HIGH SCHOOL. That kinda smack-talk makes me want to drop out, but I highly doubt doing so would make me want to design Jeep products.

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2003 Limited, Silver - L.O.S.T. # 068957 Rockies
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2127390/14
2006 Kawasaki KLR650

When installing a bump stop into lift kits like the Frankenlift, you are effectively limiting the downward range of motion. This decrases the full range of motion. So basically, the lift is too high and needs to be slightly lower. Or you could Al's Upper control arms.

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2006 Liberty Renegade
Daystar 1.5, 2.5 Lift
Mickey Thompson MTX 225/75 16
Surco Roof Rack
Surco Spare Tire Bike Rack
Garmin Map 76 GPS

You are limiting downward travel with a bumpstop, but you're only preventing the spindle from slamming into the coil. Without it, you get that extra bit of droop hardly noticeable, but you can damage your suspension. With it, you can have great flex with no problems. Bumpstops do not limit the full range of motion on our IFS suspensions, they only prevent damaging suspension contacts. They don't limit stuff at all. They would if we had solid front axles.

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2003 Limited, Silver - L.O.S.T. # 068957 Rockies
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2127390/14
2006 Kawasaki KLR650

I owned a '97 TJ. The TJ (and XJ) lifts I've dealt with were very well designed. But I'm also sure there are some poorly designed products there as well. Which year TJ and what lift did you own?



Absolutely. I have a degree in computer science.

In the software industry I am expected to follow accepted software development practices. And because some of the software I deal with affects financial numbers at very large companies, I am even held to those standards (Sarbanes-Oxley, etc) by independant auditors.

I find it funny that you need to be certified to be an accountant, nurse, doctor, plumber, mechanic, carpenter, taxi driver, home inspector, etc. But anyone can engineer things that have the potential to hurt people.



That is certainly a valid concern. I could tell you that I owned a brake shop for a number of years and have been wrenching on cars all my life. I can also tell you my jeep has never been in an accident But there are no guarentees I'm not a liar and I just make all this stuff up. There is no way to know I didn't just photoshop all those pictures. There is also the possibility I paid the other owners to say they experience the same issues. You may just have me on this one



My friends are powertrain and braking system engineers. I didn't mean to imply that CAD had to be used, but it's a very effective tool for spotting things like interference problems. Generally accepted engineering practices should be used (regardless of the specific tools such as CAD). People lives ride on these suspensions. This shouldn't be good-ole boy eyeing it up till it look 'bout right.



I just said I doubted these people were formal engineers using accepted engineer practices and it shows in their product. I'm not trying to being malicous and appologize if I came off that way. I guess when I paid $1000 for a lift I expected something that was well engineered or at very least safe. Perhaps my expectation were set too high as you suggested.

RespectMyLibertay - For your personaly safety please check and make sure all the bolts they supplied for the upper strut mounts are grade 8. If you got the no-grade bolts they supplied, you risk catastrophic failure. They can break just by torquing them to spec. I'd hate to see anyone get hurt or killed because of this.

Doc

Oh, and thanks for the bolded warning. My bolts are grade 8. Jeep almost killed me a couple weeks ago with their POS UBJs. Combine that with their crap LBJs and you have a company with a lot of credibility and many qualified mechanics and engineers selling failure-prone suspension components on some 800K+ KJs they've sold. All-J has had problems with quality control before, that's why we see so many different opinions of the evolving Frankenlift kit. But really, they're a smaller company that can't be expected to be 100% error-free. They're always willing to deal with anything unsatisfactory to customers. I can't say the same for Jeep (Daimler/Chrysler), who basically made the same mistake as All-J but on a much, much larger scale, involving all KJ owners. And at least All-J recognizes their mistakes...Jeep is trying to cover up their mistake by replacing all those "defective" LBJs with the same G@%darn thing (oh but it's see-through!). I feel like anyone with a KJ who wants to sleep comfortably at night needs to recognize Jeep's extra-huge mistake and replace their faulty components with ones they know will work. All-J Products would never do something like what Jeep did. If they make a mistake with anything, they fix as best they can. I wish I could say the same for Jeep

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2003 Limited, Silver - L.O.S.T. # 068957 Rockies
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2127390/14
2006 Kawasaki KLR650

Haha, good discussion here. I believe i could of told you that the "built in" bumpstop would cause problems. if you knew anything about that, you would of fixed it before putting it on the jeep and letting it destroy the balljoint. Doesnt take an engineer to see that.

If I remember correctly, moose has the built in bumpstop and fixed it before the jointt was destroyed. Kudos to him!!

You cannot expect things to always go perfect. It takes some work and thinking to get things to work out.

Fix it and be happy..

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LOST KJ'S
Where are you going???
Current Jeep: 2004 Jeep Liberty
-Atlantic Blue
-Air Ride Rear Suspension ; OME/Rustys Lift ; Powertrax Locker ; Moog Lower Ball-Joints ; 245/70/16 Yokohama Geolander A/T-S's on MOABS ; Flowmaster 50 SUV
Lost #007082
http://www.cardomain.com/id/jeepjeepster

Just out of curiosity ... wasn't Rock Krawler's 7-up lift designed by qualified mechanical engineers using a CAD program???

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Pete
L.O.S.T. #PC050458
'04 Timberland Green Sport w/stuff...
'08 105th Anniversary H-D Dyna Low Rider
OH-58D Kiowa Warrior

Ouch, just found your previous post on your UBJ failure. That's too bad, and I'm sure you are right that this had absolutely nothing to do with the engineering of your lift. This happens to stock libby's all the time.

Pic of RespectMyLibertay's UBJ failure

It does happen all the time.. Thats why they had to have a recall.

Does that destroy the cv joint when it does that?

_________________
LOST KJ'S
Where are you going???
Current Jeep: 2004 Jeep Liberty
-Atlantic Blue
-Air Ride Rear Suspension ; OME/Rustys Lift ; Powertrax Locker ; Moog Lower Ball-Joints ; 245/70/16 Yokohama Geolander A/T-S's on MOABS ; Flowmaster 50 SUV
Lost #007082
http://www.cardomain.com/id/jeepjeepster

There is an upper ball joint recall? Please give me more information...

Doc-so you were jeeper and failures and breakage were unacceptable? How many moons on that planet?

Look around. There's a whole industry surrounded around jeep breakage and failures. If you're disappointed by that and think its an unexpected occurrence, you need to keep your jeep on the road...stock.

Crap.

Hehe, my bad..

They need one though..

_________________
LOST KJ'S
Where are you going???
Current Jeep: 2004 Jeep Liberty
-Atlantic Blue
-Air Ride Rear Suspension ; OME/Rustys Lift ; Powertrax Locker ; Moog Lower Ball-Joints ; 245/70/16 Yokohama Geolander A/T-S's on MOABS ; Flowmaster 50 SUV
Lost #007082
http://www.cardomain.com/id/jeepjeepster

It's the responsibility of the owner to make sure their modded vehicle is safe. If a modification worked as flawlessly and safely as stock, then it wouldn't be a modification, "it'd just be the way." Complaining that a lifted Liberty rubs is like complaining that lift kits make Jeeps roll too easily. There is no practical solution.

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Jeep Liberty Wikibook
# cd /home/fuzzymuzzle.com

Wonder if the skyjacker front struts get Upper ball joint contact? Just trying to stay on subject alittle.

No one ever really talks about those struts? Do they go bad alot or something?

_________________
LOST KJ'S
Where are you going???
Current Jeep: 2004 Jeep Liberty
-Atlantic Blue
-Air Ride Rear Suspension ; OME/Rustys Lift ; Powertrax Locker ; Moog Lower Ball-Joints ; 245/70/16 Yokohama Geolander A/T-S's on MOABS ; Flowmaster 50 SUV
Lost #007082
http://www.cardomain.com/id/jeepjeepster

I thought it was the cost that prevented most people from buying it ?

Bloody hell, looking at that Ubj failure pic has me worried

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Custom, Comfortable & Capable.......just the way it should be

Yes, that was failure was totally my fault. I was dumb enough to remove the UBJs with a fork type device during lift install, which put slits in each of the UBJs' boots. This led to drying out the joint and eventually failure on a dirt trail going 5 MPH (nothing but the joint itself was damaged). Did I ever say that happens to stock Liberties? I said the UBJs and LBJs are crap, because they are. They aren't greasable, and that's just piss-poor design. Stop creating implications with my postings. I say what I mean, mean what I say. If Jeep had designed any of the joints as greasable, no one would have problems with them lift or not.

Thanks for posting my pic to remind everyone how badly Jeep f'ed up with the Liberty If the joints were greasable, I would have at least been able to grease the heck out of them after my mistake. If they were replaceable I would have done so, but of course Jeep made it difficult so we have to replace the whole f'ing arm.

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc, rrrrrright doc? (after this, because of this)
This is what happens if you lift a KJ...since I lifted mine and this what happened, OBVIOUSLY:



Detroit_doc: Don't lift your KJ, otherwise you will experience a UBJ failure. I say again, do not lift your KJ.

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2003 Limited, Silver - L.O.S.T. # 068957 Rockies
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2127390/14
2006 Kawasaki KLR650

RespectMyLibertay,

I wouldn't sweat the UBJ screwup from an embarrassment standpoint anyway. You have to do something to screw up. I respect anybody who can stand up and admit their mistakes. Thanks for letting others learn from it. After all, those of us without engineering degrees do well to brush our teeth unassisted.

_________________
Matt B.

05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k

Yes they do,I'm not sure but I think all KJ lifts over 2.5" will have ubj contact with the factory upper arms.You got to remember that when you modify 1 thing you have to beef up all the other areas to,lifting any vehicle puts more stress on factory parts like control arms and balljoints so you need to beef these up to.My 2 cents is if you are going to lift a KJ 2.5" or more you must also get new upper control arms like Al's because the factory arms are not designed for that height.Since putting a set of Al's upper arms on I've had no contact between the upper arms/balljoint and the springs.Just remember factory parts are not "Designed To Last" with the added stress of aftermarket lifts unless you add aftermarket parts like balljoints,control arms,and everything else in the suspension and driveline.

Alright, Jeepin' Al has upper arms for like $300+, is that for a pair??? Does anyone make adjustable arms for the rear? Any upgrades for the upper rear link thing???

Al's arms' price is for the pair of upper a-arms. This thread is about IFS.

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2003 Limited, Silver - L.O.S.T. # 068957 Rockies
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2127390/14
2006 Kawasaki KLR650