Did again today to see if there is anything inherently unique to the Liberty's front suspension that may cause premature strut failure. So I went out and searched the design differrence between the liberty and all other known "coil over shock" front 4x4 suspension systems. I will post a few pics pulled from the webpics, and you tell me if you see the difference???


Toyota Tacoma




Nissan Titan




2004+ F150




2006+ Dodge 1500






I couldn't find a great pic of the Dodge's setup, but if you look close you notice something oddly familiar, between the above suspensions and this is whats different:


Jeep Liberty KJ

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2005 Black CRD KJ____Full GDE turbo kit, EHM, 6.5L GMCTD lift pump, euro tq conv, 31" Duratracs on 15x7 Procomps w/3.75"bs
2.5" lift, full skids, Super Skink Sliders, front JBA Steel Diff w/True-Trac___Powertax "No-Slip" locker rear
Tow Rig: 2003 Silver 2wd Dodge 2500 reg. cab 5.9 Cummins (highly modded with 550hp/1200tq+)

right off two differences that are easy to spot

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MUDD'S MOTORSPORT'S We do IFS lift installs ,
03 OVERLAND EDITION /Kilby-Skidrow-Mopar-4XGuard skids/ 2.5 inch TOTAL CONTROL JBA coilovers -JBA Arms/MOABS-31 FALKEN WILDPEAK AT3W / 4.10's etc, 04 Kilimanjaro Edition loaded, plus 05 KJ limited

Yep,like the Titain has jounce shocks(extended bumbstops),the F150 has extended lower bumbstop hit pads,oh and the biggest is none of those lifts are BB OTT lifts.

This one for theTacoma is an OTT http://www.lieblweb.com/tacoma/Mechanical/DayStarLift/Daystar.htm

But it seems like the bumpstop is on the LCA.



And I cannot see any on this F150 so it must be inside the shock.
http://offroad.automotive.com/74326/0612or-2004-ford-f150-leveling-kit/photos14-0.html

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Cherokee 2,5 CRD: sold - Wrangler TJ 2.5: gone - Touareg V10 TDI: new toy

Solo Liberty en Español: Jeepliberty.es

you're saying "inherently unique to the Liberty's front suspension that may cause premature strut failure."

but the failures are not there on spring based lifts, or on spacer under the spring lifts - or on clevis lifts.
and they are on OTT lifts.

The key factor does not appear to be Liberty lifts - it's OTT.
and even an OTT lift will work if you put a longer bumpstop on it.

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2005 CRD
stuff
Skeptic quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

Ok, I'm close to having a true breakthrough here, and ATXKJ is close in what he observes. It's not really the OTT spacer, but an inherent design flaw of the Jeep only designed IFS unique to the KJ, KK, XK, and WK. Just give me a little more time, and I think I can have it nailed down. Of course, I have to call a couple true experts in the field to confirm my findings. Report back soon!!!!!!!!


Oh, and what I want you guys to specifically look at (cause I couldn't find any "stock" suspension pics) is the coil over's lower mounting and overall length.

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2005 Black CRD KJ____Full GDE turbo kit, EHM, 6.5L GMCTD lift pump, euro tq conv, 31" Duratracs on 15x7 Procomps w/3.75"bs
2.5" lift, full skids, Super Skink Sliders, front JBA Steel Diff w/True-Trac___Powertax "No-Slip" locker rear
Tow Rig: 2003 Silver 2wd Dodge 2500 reg. cab 5.9 Cummins (highly modded with 550hp/1200tq+)

design flaw in Jeeps ???
true experts in the field, like the tech people or
I think we all see that but again mixing apples and oranges in a way , completely different due to design, layout, mounting, overall area that each has to work within, COST/ most on here do not even want to buy new longer shocks when lifting

Also please tell me if you are going to buy an OTT lift for say (estimate) 200 bucks, add front and rear shocks and you have over 500 dollars, with $150 more you have a complete new OME springs/ Rancho shocks, everything for a great lift and no problems.
Doesn't make sense to me in the long run and still using junk stock springs that are due to be replaced soon!

Just trying to fiqure out why you are trying to either blame Jeep for a bad design or ??? what you are trying to prove

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MUDD'S MOTORSPORT'S We do IFS lift installs ,
03 OVERLAND EDITION /Kilby-Skidrow-Mopar-4XGuard skids/ 2.5 inch TOTAL CONTROL JBA coilovers -JBA Arms/MOABS-31 FALKEN WILDPEAK AT3W / 4.10's etc, 04 Kilimanjaro Edition loaded, plus 05 KJ limited

Yes you are in a way correct Tom. No, I'm not wasting my money like that either. This project is just the side effect of an overactive curious mind. And I've confirmed my theory so far with 2 sources. I'm waiting to hear back from a 3rd. And no, the people I'm in touch with as we speak are S.C.O.R.E. race chassis designers and true engineers. Like I said, experts in suspension design.

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2005 Black CRD KJ____Full GDE turbo kit, EHM, 6.5L GMCTD lift pump, euro tq conv, 31" Duratracs on 15x7 Procomps w/3.75"bs
2.5" lift, full skids, Super Skink Sliders, front JBA Steel Diff w/True-Trac___Powertax "No-Slip" locker rear
Tow Rig: 2003 Silver 2wd Dodge 2500 reg. cab 5.9 Cummins (highly modded with 550hp/1200tq+)

So are you asking them what to change in the design of a KJ or what could be made different ?
2 wheel drives would be so easy, its the cvs that get us into trouble with 4 wheel drives, location etc

Ok sitting back and waiting for the results

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MUDD'S MOTORSPORT'S We do IFS lift installs ,
03 OVERLAND EDITION /Kilby-Skidrow-Mopar-4XGuard skids/ 2.5 inch TOTAL CONTROL JBA coilovers -JBA Arms/MOABS-31 FALKEN WILDPEAK AT3W / 4.10's etc, 04 Kilimanjaro Edition loaded, plus 05 KJ limited

Ok, in a nut shell. Here it is. I will at this time withhold my 1source until the time I can get at least two more to confirm. But feel safe in publishing this as is. I'm running into a few roadblocks by the design engineers do to the fact they don't have actual experience modifying or re-engineering the stock Jeep IFS suspensions except the 1source I have confirmed, or at the very least, being able to look over and see what I'm asking about. I will say, all the other 6 shops I contacted said that the info I gave them sounds correct but did not give me permission to name them as sources.


The flaw it seems is in the use of the shackle mount as a means of attaching the strut to the lower A-arm. It effectively reduces the available shock length by nearly 8 inches. As you can plainly see, all other coil over designs have the longest possible shock length available by mounting direct from the body/chassis to the lower A-arm. Longer overall shock length, means less of an affect from doing any kind of spacer lift regardless of whether its a coil pack spacer or OTT spacer. I've looked, and in ever application for the listed vehicles, the strut spacer is the only BB option. As stated, we try to cram too much stuff in not enough space. That is why the OTT spacer without travel limiting bump stops are more likely to cause failure versus other lifts. Cause it effects the geometry of the suspension more than in-coil spacers. It is "NOT" the design of OTT spacer itself that causes the problem, but what it does is simply compounds the problem inherent allready and magnifies it. But now that we know why, there are steps as stated that can fix this problem.

Nowhere could I find the occurrence of stories with blown struts/shocks on these other suspension designs. Not only in Liberty's, but in the other Jeep IFS. I think, the only reason we don't hear too much from the other Jeep owners with this suspension, is the type of owner, cost of used ones, and end use of said vehicles. Liberty's have gotten cheap ad most are out of warranty anyways, and people have started to lift/built them to do more than what they were intended as stock. Therefore we have more reports of these failures from our group.

Now, I'm no suspension designer/engineer thats why I wanted to confirm my theory before posting here. But, if someone can design a lift that would delete the shock yoke/clevis and remount the strut to the lower A-arm without interference with the CV axles, that would be problem solved. Allthough I'm sure cost prohibitive and very few would be willing to pay the price.

But there it is folks!!!!! Thats my idea and solution. So, who will be the 1st to implement it and give me the royalties from the massive sales they would generate once the lift hots the market..............LOL!!!!!!!!!

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2005 Black CRD KJ____Full GDE turbo kit, EHM, 6.5L GMCTD lift pump, euro tq conv, 31" Duratracs on 15x7 Procomps w/3.75"bs
2.5" lift, full skids, Super Skink Sliders, front JBA Steel Diff w/True-Trac___Powertax "No-Slip" locker rear
Tow Rig: 2003 Silver 2wd Dodge 2500 reg. cab 5.9 Cummins (highly modded with 550hp/1200tq+)

But now wait , those of us who have playing with the KJs for a few years now already knew all of the above.

Why do we give you money for something I at least ( and several others) knew 4 plus years ago. Plus it is not as simple as just moving a coil over 6 inches this way or that. You can not go forward due to the location of sway bar and tie rod ends right there, moving to the rear no real room as you would be hitting it when the wheels were cut sharply, with brake caliper etc. There is not a whole of of room left there to do anything
And going out of warranty has nothing to do when most lift, most of us lifted early on so to H with warrantys

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MUDD'S MOTORSPORT'S We do IFS lift installs ,
03 OVERLAND EDITION /Kilby-Skidrow-Mopar-4XGuard skids/ 2.5 inch TOTAL CONTROL JBA coilovers -JBA Arms/MOABS-31 FALKEN WILDPEAK AT3W / 4.10's etc, 04 Kilimanjaro Edition loaded, plus 05 KJ limited

Well, if it was allready known, then I couldn't find it anywhere......Hey, I never said ot would be easy, and definitely not cheap. But it is the solution to our problem!!!!!!! Now all we need is some seed money, a big shop full of the right machines and tools, and we can get to work fixing/redesigning the entire front IFS of our Liberty's...................LOL!!!!!!........................or, just use facts when we reply and try to honestly help those who really don't want/need/or cant afford a full-on suspension kit.

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2005 Black CRD KJ____Full GDE turbo kit, EHM, 6.5L GMCTD lift pump, euro tq conv, 31" Duratracs on 15x7 Procomps w/3.75"bs
2.5" lift, full skids, Super Skink Sliders, front JBA Steel Diff w/True-Trac___Powertax "No-Slip" locker rear
Tow Rig: 2003 Silver 2wd Dodge 2500 reg. cab 5.9 Cummins (highly modded with 550hp/1200tq+)

But back to if you do not use an OTT in the first place and do a full spring no problems either Not sure what we have just accomplished

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MUDD'S MOTORSPORT'S We do IFS lift installs ,
03 OVERLAND EDITION /Kilby-Skidrow-Mopar-4XGuard skids/ 2.5 inch TOTAL CONTROL JBA coilovers -JBA Arms/MOABS-31 FALKEN WILDPEAK AT3W / 4.10's etc, 04 Kilimanjaro Edition loaded, plus 05 KJ limited

Or, simply make sure longer bumpstops are used to limit uptravel of the suspension, and thereby solving the problem they exagerate and already exists in stock form. It's a combination effect of crappy stock struts with a less than ideal suspension design. So now, people will know the "why" behind the answers instead of people simply stating "it's just because", or "trust us and dont ask anymore questions".

And hey, I'm just putting the facts out there to better inform those with these questions. I'm now wondering why it is Jeep went away from the proven time tested design as used in other vehicles that mount to the lowest point on the lower A-arm and therefore dont have this problem.

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2005 Black CRD KJ____Full GDE turbo kit, EHM, 6.5L GMCTD lift pump, euro tq conv, 31" Duratracs on 15x7 Procomps w/3.75"bs
2.5" lift, full skids, Super Skink Sliders, front JBA Steel Diff w/True-Trac___Powertax "No-Slip" locker rear
Tow Rig: 2003 Silver 2wd Dodge 2500 reg. cab 5.9 Cummins (highly modded with 550hp/1200tq+)

so you're saying it's not the design of the lift
it's that the suspension is not designed to work with the lift........

Okkkaayy - that was entertaining.

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2005 CRD
stuff
Skeptic quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

The WK has a bumpstop INSIDE of the coil over so no, this is by all means NOT a problem with all jeeps. Before that kind of comment is made some research needs to be done.

The main difference between the kj's suspension and all of those in the above pictures is the location of the bumpstop. The a-arm also doesnt seem to be as close to the coil-over to UBJC isnt an issue.

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LOST KJ'S
Where are you going???
Current Jeep: 2004 Jeep Liberty
-Atlantic Blue
-Air Ride Rear Suspension ; OME/Rustys Lift ; Powertrax Locker ; Moog Lower Ball-Joints ; 245/70/16 Yokohama Geolander A/T-S's on MOABS ; Flowmaster 50 SUV
Lost #007082
http://www.cardomain.com/id/jeepjeepster

I never said it was fact, just that it is possible. Also, due to the fact of not many lifted WK's & Commando's there is not a whole lot to judge either way. I simply stated there is a known problem with the Liberty's and with the same design in the other IFS Jeeps, it may become a problem with them also in the future. And the bumpstop is not the main difference. It's the use of a yoke saddle to mount the strut. Bumpstops are pretty universal regardless of where they mount, just as long as they do they're intended job and are of the right length.






No. Just that they are not the most compatible together without slight/easy modifications to the bumpstops.

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2005 Black CRD KJ____Full GDE turbo kit, EHM, 6.5L GMCTD lift pump, euro tq conv, 31" Duratracs on 15x7 Procomps w/3.75"bs
2.5" lift, full skids, Super Skink Sliders, front JBA Steel Diff w/True-Trac___Powertax "No-Slip" locker rear
Tow Rig: 2003 Silver 2wd Dodge 2500 reg. cab 5.9 Cummins (highly modded with 550hp/1200tq+)

I see your point, 110%. When I was new here, I got the same thing when I asked about getting a "cheap" lift "for now" until I could afford what was recommended (OME, OME, OME, OME...etc etc).

I was like, screw these guys I'm not made of money! But I was smart enough to do my own legwork and weigh the pros and cons for myself. They all said "you'll find out the hard way not to use an OTT". Guess what? I bought one anyway and I was sorry. I now have a Frankenlift and couldn't be happier.

If new members don't like the responses they get from KJ owners who KNOW from hard-earned experience, they shouldn't be asking for our opinions. Those of us who already knew (from experience) what your research has shown are trying to save people from finding out the hard way. That's all.

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2002 KJ Sport 4x4, 3.7L NV3550
Cardomain Page
http://www.cnyjeep.org

X's two
Plus a lot of times when someone new asks if they would look 3 posts below someone else just asks the same thing yesterday, so yes sometimes you get a short answer. I also think its funny when someone asks but after they get ten responses with the same response they don't like the answer and go " well I don't think thats right" and do it their own way, so after a while everyone gets a short answer

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MUDD'S MOTORSPORT'S We do IFS lift installs ,
03 OVERLAND EDITION /Kilby-Skidrow-Mopar-4XGuard skids/ 2.5 inch TOTAL CONTROL JBA coilovers -JBA Arms/MOABS-31 FALKEN WILDPEAK AT3W / 4.10's etc, 04 Kilimanjaro Edition loaded, plus 05 KJ limited

For the record, OME isn't all thats preached... For the cheap lift, Daystar is almost always thrown out there. An excellent budget lift.

Unfortunately, Daystar, JBA, OME, and All J's Frankenlift ARE the only choices out there. The rest of the aren't worth it. Rusty's WLL sag. RRO is a crap product, by a crap company. The generic OTT offered by anyone and everyone, is proven not to work on a KJ. Rockcrawler, ehh, never mind. Skyjacker, if you can find an used lift from one of their first years producing KJ suspension, otherwise, not as good as OME, but just as pricey.

Yes the search feature does stink, there are tricks to it (Boolean phrase ), but if you want to learn about the KJ, I suggest that you start reading. When I joined I spent weeks reading old posts. Learning from the combined experience here. After going through hundreds of pages, I only posted when I needed clarification on a subject. "things get preached" here because not enough people do research, and do the easiest thing and ask before looking. Which is why we get an average of 5+ new threads each week asking the exact same question. Gets a bit redundant.

Your research is laudable, and I appreciate your time bringing your time and efforts to bear on this subject, so please don't take the critisicm badly, but the answers are on the board for yourself and others if you just spend some time reading.

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- Mike
'12 JK

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