Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 718

WWDiesel wrote:

Oh what would we give if we only had a good logic diagram!

You got me wondering about ECM logic. Did a Google search and found an interesting Wikipedia page that describes an electronically controlled engine that does not need a starter nor cam shafts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_control_unit

Off subject, but interesting.
Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 718

Changed the Fuel Quantity Solenoid / Fuel Regulator Solenoid and this Liberty CRD is back on the road !! :BANANA:

Had a scare right after changing it, though. Started the engine and it performed exactly the same as before. :banghead:

Read the codes and got the explanations: P0090, P0403, P1140.
P0090: Wiring issue. Instantly the mental image of the newly installed part without the wires connected hit me in the back of the head. Sure enough, I didn't install the connector on the regulator solenoid.

Once connected, it fired right up and ran like a champ!

Codes P0403 and P1140 are related to the EGR system, which I have removed. Still need to delete EGR from the ECM.

Layback40: Are you having any luck with your connector to the high pressure fuel pump? I hope so.

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jun 12, 2022 9:57 pm

Yea!

Hallelujah, I know you are one happy driver! :JEEPIN:

So glad you finally found the culprit.....it has been a long road for sure!

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 718

WWDiesel wrote:

:BINGO:
Yea! :BANANA:

Hallelujah, I know you are one happy driver! :JEEPIN:

So glad you finally found the culprit.....it has been a long road for sure!

THANK YOU WWDiesel, AND OTHERS !! :pepper:

It certainly has been a long, long road :JEEPIN:

but the destination has been found.

It sounds like layback40 is on the same road. Hope he finds happiness too.

Dean.

lfhoward · **Posted:** Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:53 am

layback40 · **Posted:** Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:56 am

CaptainDean wrote:

Sounds like layback40 is on the same road. Hope he finds happiness too.

Dean.

No such luck here.
Starts sometimes & idles, put it into gear & it stops.
I unplugged & removed the module
Its number is P56044 561BE
There has been a software update & it looks like that makes it
P56044 561BE FE5EA

SEQUENCE 180150

Dont know if that is of any meaning.
It has 2 large plugs on the car cabin end.
The top being the larger.
No burned or bent pins.
Now need to work out what ones are the holes in the plugs so I can test the wires.
Looks like the big plug is the one as there are 96 pin holes.
Can someone confirm I have all this right/
Dont want to mess it up more.
Also recleaned the 2 earths near, 1 on the firewall & 1 next to the GP controller just behind the battery.
Any others important?

All sensors & solenoids have been changed out recently.

Do I need to do anything important when I reconnect the module?

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 718

layback40 wrote:

No such luck here.
Starts sometimes & idles, put it into gear & it stops.
I unplugged & removed the module
Its number is P56044 561BE
There has been a software update & it looks like that makes it
P56044 561BE FE5EA

SEQUENCE 180150

Don't know if that is of any meaning.
It has 2 large plugs on the car cabin end. <--Yes, that's the Engine Control Module
The top being the larger.
No burned or bent pins.
Now need to work out what ones are the holes in the plugs so I can test the wires. <-- Yes, that is the next step
Looks like the big plug is the one as there are 96 pin holes. <-- The larger plug is P1 on the ECM, the smaller one is P2. You'll be able to identify the pattern of pin numbers in the ECM connector.
Can someone confirm I have all this right
Don't want to mess it up more.
Also re-cleaned the 2 earths near, 1 on the firewall & 1 next to the GP controller just behind the battery.
Any others important?

All sensors & solenoids have been changed out recently.

Do I need to do anything important when I reconnect the module? <-- Always disconnect the battery when disconnecting and reconnecting.

layback40,
Thanks for replying. We need to get you back on the road again. Your Jeep is issuing the P0092 Diagnostic Trouble Code. You've already researched that.

The wire bundle connectors on the ECM has very small holes to get to the pin connections. You'll need a thin set of probes for your continuity checker, or at least a straightened-out (small) paper clip or some straight pins to make a connection. You may need an assistant to make the connections while shaking the wire bundles.

Test the continuity of the wires associated with the CP3 HPFP Fuel Quantity Solenoid or Fuel Regulator Solenoid. Best to disconnect the 2-pin connector on the solenoid to do the test. Get a good connection with the continuity tester and then move the wire bundles around just to ensure there are no breaks or shorts along the way. Also, you may have to replace the connector on the solenoid. They are available at most auto parts stores and you can splice the new connector with crimp connectors. Afterward, use Liquid Electrical Tape to completely water proof the splices.

If this doesn't help, then we will try the next possible fault.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Mon Jun 13, 2022 3:56 am

Update
Have been measuring a few resistances.
Pressure control solenoid ( one at the back of rail) ~ 4 ohms

Quality solenoid on CP3, including leads from module ~ 3 ohms

Pressure sensor.
This is interesting as it must have some diode properties.
aftermarket sensor
pins 1 to 3, 23.9 K ohms either way
pins 1 to 2 15.3 M ohms & open circuit the other way around.
pins 2 to 3 15.6 M ohms & open circuit the other way.
Bosch sensor
1 to 3 ~ 23.3 K ohms either way.
1 to 2 ~ 13.2 M ohms or open.
2 to 3 ~ 14.7 m ohms or open

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
There must be something I am missing.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 718

Were you making these measurements on the devices themselves, or through the wiring harness from the ECM connector?

I got similar readings on all devices.

I think you already changed the Fuel Regulator Solenoid in the CP3 pump?

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:00 pm

layback40 wrote:

Update
Have been measuring a few resistances.
Pressure control solenoid ( one at the back of rail) ~ 4 ohms

Quality solenoid on CP3, including leads from module ~ 3 ohms

Pressure sensor.
This is interesting as it must have some diode properties.
aftermarket sensor
pins 1 to 3, 23.9 K ohms either way
pins 1 to 2 15.3 M ohms & open circuit the other way around.
pins 2 to 3 15.6 M ohms & open circuit the other way.
Bosch sensor
1 to 3 ~ 23.3 K ohms either way.
1 to 2 ~ 13.2 M ohms or open.
2 to 3 ~ 14.7 m ohms or open

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
There must be something I am missing.

Are these Ω readings with the sensors disconnected (unplugged from wiring harness and ECM)?

A thought; If you and / or Dean could provide me with all the normal Ω readings for each known good sensor while it is disconnected, I could add the values to the Fuel System Overview Drawing for future reference. Could also make a table listing all the sensors and their respective Ω test values for bench testing. :wink:

Might come in handy for future problem solving and sensor bench testing. :idea:

layback40 · **Posted:** Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:17 pm

Yes WW .
Dont know if Dean has any measurements as well.
I was hoping he may have tested his new quality solenoid.
They are all with the sensors disconnected.
I have no Idea what the readings would be for bad sensors/solenoids or if any of these are bad.
Once I get mine going properly I can let you know if any were for bad components.
I am at a loss as to what is the real issue with mine.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 718

The readings that layback40 got were pretty standard, and can be portrayed as readings taken from the larger C1 connector of the ECM. Disconnect the battery, then disconnect the ECM connector. Stick straight pins (be gentle) in the ECM connector holes to touch the actual pins. Use an Ohm meter to take resistance / continuity measurements. If the wires are twisted tightly together at any connector, they could be shorted or broken.

To correct my mistake from earlier posts: I referred to the ECM connectors as P1 (large) and P2 (small); they are really C1 and C2. I'll get the stick and wait out behind the shed. :oops:

ECM Power and Ground
Measure continuity from ECM C2 pin 19 to Power Control Center Fuse 14 ~0 ohms
Measure continuity from ECM C2 pin 2 to chassis ground, C2 pin 4 to chassis ground, C2 pin 6 to chassis ground ~0 ohms

Fuel Pressure Control Solenoid ( one at the back of rail ) ~ 3 to 5 ohms
ECM C1 pins 52 and 4. Should read the same from 4 to 52 also.
If reading is 1 ohm or less, then suspect a short in the solenoid or wiring. Disconnect solenoid and measure again.
If reading is greater than 1000 ohms (1K ohm) then suspect a broken wire.
Measure continuity through the wires from ECM C1 pin 4 to ground, pin 52 to ground ~ open circuit

(Fuel Quantity Solenoid = Fuel Quality Solenoid = Fuel Regulator Solenoid)
Fuel Quantity Solenoid ( on CP3 High Pressure Fuel Pump ) ~ 3 to 5 ohms
ECM C1 pins 28 and 76. Should read the same from 76 to 28 also.
If reading is 1 ohm or less, then suspect a short in the solenoid or wiring. Disconnect solenoid and measure again.
If reading is greater than 1000 ohms (1K ohm) then suspect a broken wire.
Measure continuity through the wires from ECM C1 pin 28 to FQS pin 1 ~ less than 1 ohm
Measure continuity through the wires from ECM C1 pin 76 to FQS pin 2 ~ less than 1 ohm
Measure continuity through the wires from ECM C1 pin 28 to 76 ~ open circuit
Measure continuity through the wires from ECM C1 pin 28 to ground, 76 to ground ~ open circuit

Fuel Pressure Sensor ( on Fuel Rail ) This is a solid state device shat should be tested for voltages while the engine is running.
Measure continuity through the wires from the ECM connector pins to the Fuel Pressure Sensor connector pins
ECM C1 pin 84 to Fuel Pressure Sensor pin 1 ~ less than 1 ohm
ECM C1 pin 59 to FPS pin 2 ~ less than 1 ohm
ECM C1 pin 86 to FPS pin 3 ~ less than 1 ohm
Measure continuity through the wires from ECM C1 pin 84 to 59, and 84 to 86, and 86 to 59 ~ open circuit
Measure continuity through the wires from ECM C1 pin 84 to ground, 59 to ground, 86 to ground ~ open circuit

Set up to measure voltages: Insert straight pins alongside wires into Fuel Pressure Sensor connector pins 1, 2, 3. Ensure no shorts.
Reconnect all connectors, then reconnect the battery.
Measure voltages of pin 1 (+) to pin 3 (-): Key off ~0vdc. Key on ~5vdc steady. Engine start ~5vdc steady
Measure voltages of pin 2 (+) to pin 3 (-): Key off ~0vdc. Key on ~0.5vdc. Engine start = ~1.5vdc to ~3.5vdc varies with RPM

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:28 pm

Since we got Dean going,
Less go over your symptoms again.
You said you were getting a code for a large fuel leak?
You further stated that when you pump the fuel primer bulb on the fuel filter, it improves engine running? Tells me that you don't have enough fuel at the CP3?
Layback40 wrote:
Still getting P1260 code ~ Large fuel leak.
You sure of this P code number, I can find no reference to it being a fuel code, Everywhere I look, it says it is for No.1 Glow Plug?
Noticed when first started, it would cut out after a minute or so.
Idling a bit rough but improves if I pump the primer pump.

I know you did some injector work. Do you happen to know what your rail pressure is when it acts up?
Do you have a lift pump installed?

If the CP3 is getting plenty of fuel, clean fuel filter, then there are only a few things that could cause low rail pressure that have to be ruled out one by one.
1. Bad injectors, but I think you have already addressed that.
2. Malfunctioning Fuel Pressure Solenoid (Fuel Rail Pressure Control Valve) End of fuel rail.
3. Fuel Quantity Solenoid on back of CP3 malfunctioning
4. Cascade/Overflow Valve (on side/top of CP3 injection pump) mechanical, no wires on this one.
5. A wiring problem or bad connection for one or more of the sensors at the sensor end or at the ECM connector.
6. Last but not least, problems in the ECM itself.

layback40 · **Posted:** Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:51 pm

WWDiesel wrote:

Since we got Dean going,
Less go over your symptoms again.
You said you were getting a code for a large fuel leak?
You further stated that when you pump the fuel primer bulb on the fuel filter, it improves engine running? Tells me that you don't have enough fuel at the CP3?
Layback40 wrote:
Still getting P1260 code ~ Large fuel leak.
You sure of this P code number, I can find no reference to it being a fuel code, Everywhere I look, it says it is for No.1 Glow Plug?
Noticed when first started, it would cut out after a minute or so.
Idling a bit rough but improves if I pump the primer pump.

I know you did some injector work. Do you happen to know what your rail pressure is when it acts up?
Do you have a lift pump installed?

If the CP3 is getting plenty of fuel, clean fuel filter, then there are only a few things that could cause low rail pressure that have to be ruled out one by one.
1. Bad injectors, but I think you have already addressed that.
2. Malfunctioning Fuel Pressure Solenoid (Fuel Rail Pressure Control Valve) End of fuel rail.
3. Fuel Quantity Solenoid on back of CP3 malfunctioning
4. Cascade/Overflow Valve (on side/top of CP3 injection pump) mechanical, no wires on this one.
5. A wiring problem or bad connection for one or more of the sensors at the sensor end or at the ECM connector.
6. Last but not least, problems in the ECM itself.

I have a Fauct pump just before the filter. There is good flow if I have a pipe into a bucket after the filter.
I dont have gear to check rail pressure.

1/ injectors should be good.
2/I have changed it for another one.
3/I swapped it out.
4/I have swapped out the CP3 including this. I have never seen evidence of fuel in that large overflow pipe.
5/I have cleaned all connections.
6/ Can I just swap it for another? Or is the VIN stored in it?

The code I now get is P0093 Large fuel leak.
After I changed out the injectors, It started a couple of times without starter fluid. as of yesterday it wont even start with it.
To previously get it to start, a good squirt & then the tiniest amount of throttle when the fluid got into it. It sometimes would fire on the fluid & the diesel would take over.
Once started it would idle smoothly for as long as you liked.
To drive it, put in gear & let it idle off, Tiny bit of throttle & let it change up through the gears if you are lucky. Up to 1500rpm often ok, If you are game, could get upto 2,000rpm for up changes. This is in flat roads only. The smallest of rises & it dies.
I removed the ECM yesterday & checked connections & all appeared good. I also cleaned the 2 earths, 1 on firewall, other near GP control relay behind battery. Any others I should check?

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:02 am

Vin, injector codes, and security code are all stored in ECM.
Swapping to another one requires reprogramming all that info into it.

Do you have any way of monitoring what the fuel rail pressure sensor is telling the ECM? That would be wonderful to know.

layback40 · **Posted:** Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:32 am

WWDiesel wrote:

Vin, injector codes, and security code are all stored in ECM.
Swapping to another one requires reprogramming all that info into it.

Do you have any way of monitoring what the fuel rail pressure sensor is telling the ECM? That would be wonderful to know.

I think that would be the voltage on pin #2.
I could try & measure it while cranking.
Would be just with a multi meter.
Would that work?

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 718

layback40 wrote:

I think that would be the voltage on pin #2.
I could try & measure it while cranking.
Would be just with a multi meter.
Would that work?

Yes, pin #2, but be sure to use pin 1 as ground with the voltmeter. Not sure of the scaling, such as 10,000 PSI = 1 volt.
Ground for the ECM C2 pins 2, 4, 6 is on the firewall near the ECM just below the hood.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:30 am

CaptainDean wrote:

layback40 wrote:

I think that would be the voltage on pin #2.
I could try & measure it while cranking.
Would be just with a multi meter.
Would that work?

Yes, pin #2, but be sure to use pin 1 as ground with the voltmeter. Not sure of the scaling, such as 10,000 PSI = 1 volt.
Ground for the ECM C2 pins 2, 4, 6 is on the firewall near the ECM just below the hood.

Dean.

I will probably just take the signal off the wires as they go into the plug on the sensor.
My XJ Cherokee (VM 425, old school diesel with drive by wire injector pump) is now going (back up car), so the pressure is off. Forecast rain for next 2 days so will try if there is s break in the rain.
There is probably a graph on a Bosch site giving a relationship/graph for pressure/voltage.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:25 pm

I looked at both 05 & 06 wiring pin outs,
according to both diagrams, they both show the same pin data.
Pin #2 is fuel injector #2 on the C1 top ECM connector, Pin #2 on the C2 BOTTOM ECM connector is a GROUND
Pins 59, 84, & 86 are the wires for the fuel pressure sensor as listed below in bold blue.

MODULE-ENGINE CONTROL C1 (DIESEL) - 96 WAY
CAV ------ CIRCUIT --------------- FUNCTION

59 ---- K181 20BR/YL ------ FUEL PRESSURE SENSOR SIGNAL
84 ---- K359 20YL/BR ------ FUEL PRESSURE SENSOR GROUND
86 ---- K350 20BR/YL ------ FUEL PRESSURE SENSOR 5 VOLT SUPPLY

MODULE-ENGINE CONTROL C2 (DIESEL)

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 718

layback40 wrote:

My XJ Cherokee (VM 425, old school diesel with drive by wire injector pump) is now going (back up car), so the pressure is off. Forecast rain for next 2 days so will try if there is s break in the rain.

Glad you have transportation again. Good luck in continuing to troubleshoot your Liberty CRD. We're still here.

Dean.

Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

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