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Daystar Kit Differences
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=38919		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  long_tall_texan [ Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Daystar Kit Differences
OK. Read my message below that I sent to Daystar this afternoon. Then read their reply. Then let me know what you think...

---------------------------------

Original Message from me:

I have a question regarding the difference between the 2 available lift kits for the 02-07 Jeep Liberty. I ordered, and have already installed the KJ09116BK kit for my 2007 3.7L gas model. This is the kit recommended over the phone to me by Daystar customer support, and by the local 4 Wheel Parts store that I purchased the kit from. However, after speaking to other KJ owners with the Daystar lift, I have a few questions.

From what I and others can tell, the only real difference in the 2 kits available for the KJ is that the KJ09115BK (diesel) kit comes with front and rear extended bump-stops. The KJ09116 (non-diesel, which I ordered) does not include the extended bump stops. Why would extended bump stops not be needed on the gas models? It is common knowledge that for every inch of suspension lift you add, the same amount should be added to your bump stops. If extended bump stops are not added, then shock damage will probably occur and/or springs will likely be overcompressed causing long-term sagging.

Since both kits retail at the same list price, I feel that the extended bump stops should be included for both models rather than having to buy the bumpstops in addition to the lift for the gas models.

So I guess what I am asking is can you send me a set of front and rear bumpstops for my KJ so that I don't end up destroying my shock or springs based on your recommended lift kit? Or am I just overlooking something very obvious here?

On the brighter side, I am VERY happy with the lift on my KJ and have recommended it to several other people with KJ's. I just want to ensure that I don't damage something before I overflex/overcompress. I also want to be sure to recommend the correct kit number to others in the future so they don't run into this problem.

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Reply from Daystar:

Thanks for you input on our product line. You posed some interesting questions so I dug into it a little further and here is what I found:

KJ09115BK is not for the diesel, it is for gas engines only and includes bumpstops as you said.

KJ09116BK is the same as the KJ09115BK except it does not include bumpstops.

KJ09123BK is a 1-1/2" kit for diesels.

The KJ09116BK kit was developed because in 2003, Jeep lowered the ride height of the Liberty from the factory via shorter coils. We started getting tech calls about a rough ride on '03 and later models and it was discovered the rough ride was the result of premature engagement of the extended bumpstops (due to the lower factory ride height.) We further determined that the extended bump stops were not necessary with the kit as long as the customer stays within the maximum recommended tire size; there is no issue with tire-to-fender contact, or bottoming of the front struts. Basically, the bumpstops were not necessary and causing ride quality issues, so they were removed from the kit. The KJ09115BK kit should have been flagged as '02 only, but it never was. That has since been corrected.

Hopefully this answers your questions, and thanks again for your input on our products.

Director of Marketing
Daystar Products International

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For the record, I don't agree with them...
Author:  JJsTJ [ Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Back when the Daystar kits came out there was a kit that included bumpstops and swaybar bushings and a kit w/out those. Looking at the kits online, they look pretty much the same as back a few years ago except w/ the addition of the smaller height leveling kits. This was also prior to the CRD so I don't think much has changed.
Author:  long_tall_texan [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:44 am ]
Post subject: 
I guess my point in all of this is that I am going to have to pay an extra $40 plus shipping to get the extended bump stops for mine. When I could have just ordered the KJ09115BK kit in the first place for the same price. But when I called Daystar customer support, they told me that the 115 kit was only for diesels. I specifically asked them what the difference was and they could not tell me anything but that the 115 was for diesel and I needed the 116. Kind of chaps my hide a little.
Author:  tommudd [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:52 am ]
Post subject: 
One of the main problems is that in todays world you do not always get to talk to someone who knows what the company they work for really sells. Used to be you would call/ go into a store and talk to people who REALLY knew what they sold , anymore they just have people there thats it

You do have a few say like AllJs , when you call in and talk to say Heather you get an up front honest answer to your question, also I have found OK 4WD is the same good knowledgeable people who take pride in there job!
Author:  scrambledKJ [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Daystar
Are the bumpstops needed?

On another note, I have worked the counter and in the shop for 4 wheel parts and for smaller shops. You are gonna have trouble finding someone who knows a lot about the odd balls. Most of the shops haven't messed with KJ's much, so they go by what their 3 year old catalog says. At least they use the internet now...

Travis
Author:  tommudd [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Daystar
scrambledKJ wrote:
Are the bumpstops needed?

On another note, I have worked the counter and in the shop for 4 wheel parts and for smaller shops. You are gonna have trouble finding someone who knows a lot about the odd balls. Most of the shops haven't messed with KJ's much, so they go by what their 3 year old catalog says. At least they use the internet now...

Travis


Debate is ongoing but everything I have seen, yes bumpstops are needed. Agree with the oddball stuff, most 4 Wheel Drive shops know how to sell Wrangler parts real well, :lol: but do not take the time to even investigate what else they can sell. Also most do not want to get anything out of the norm, make take them ten minutes to research it so time wasted for them they think. What they do not think is that one sell may lead into a lot more sells!
Author:  long_tall_texan [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Daystar
scrambledKJ wrote:
Are the bumpstops needed?
Travis


Here is the engineering/physics answer to that question (which I also replied back to Daystar with...)

Assume an unlifted KJ has 6" of suspension travel. After a Daystar lift, with stock bumpstops, you would now have 8.5" of travel. This suspension travel increase of 2.5" of potential flex/spring compress allows for the springs to over-compress, or even "stack" meaning that the springs completely bottom out. Over-compressing the springs or stacking them in this manner, or anything beyond the original design of 6" of travel/compression will break down the spring over time and cause severe sagging. This will require springs to have be replaced due to the over-compression. The extended bump stops keep the springs from over-compressing, therefore still operating under design specifications.
Author:  tommudd [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Daystar
long_tall_texan wrote:
scrambledKJ wrote:
Are the bumpstops needed?
Travis


Here is the engineering/physics answer to that question (which I also replied back to Daystar with...)

Assume an unlifted KJ has 6" of suspension travel. After a Daystar lift, with stock bumpstops, you would now have 8.5" of travel. This suspension travel increase of 2.5" of potential flex/spring compress allows for the springs to over-compress, or even "stack" meaning that the springs completely bottom out. Over-compressing the springs or stacking them in this manner, or anything beyond the original design of 6" of travel/compression will break down the spring over time and cause severe sagging. This will require springs to have be replaced due to the over-compression. The extended bump stops keep the springs from over-compressing, therefore still operating under design specifications.


very good , hopefully they do something with the information
Author:  long_tall_texan [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
And Their Reply again:

The amount of travel remains the same stock or with a spacer kit such as ours because the factory strut is retained. The amount of stroke in the strut assembly ultimately dictates the amount of travel. Ride height changes, but travel remains the same.

As I said, we removed the bump stops from the kit because they really weren't needed and tended to cause more problems than they solved on the later Libertys such as yours. I don't know who you spoke with here, but this has been clarified. The ride quality issues were not in extreme circumstances, but instead during everyday driving situations. You won't cause any suspension damage by not having them, but if you want the bumpstops, I'm happy to send them to you. I just need an address.

--------------------

At least I get my bumpstops and sway bar bushings. But I am still going to try to explain to him where he is missing the point with some simplified drawings. Also noted and found by mtbyak this AM is that they have updated the Daystar website today. It no longer even lists the KJ09115BK kit at all. They seem to think that the bumpstops are not needed.
Author:  tommudd [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
something is not right, :? :?
you raise a KJ say 3 inches ( to make it simple math) so the stock bumpstop is now 3 inches farther away from the lower contact point ( on the upper control arm) . So when flexed for it to contact the UCA the spring must go flat (stacking) on itself to hit the bumpstop, how can they say that is OK and it will not be a problem. The spacer itself is already preloading the spring some and then when flexed it has very small amount before it is stacked completely. :roll: :roll:

OK I must be stupid then ( a lot of people will agree on here :wink: ) as it makes no sense to me :roll: :wink:
Author:  long_tall_texan [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
That is exactly my point. Maybe the drawings will explain it a little better to them. I will post them here too so others on here can see it a little more clearly.
Author:  long_tall_texan [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Here are some pictures for future reference when explaining the need for bump stops. Notice how the coils compressed on the stock setup are very close to the compression of the lifted setup with the extended bumpstops. However, if you do not include the extended bumpstops, then the springs overcompress and possibly stack.

Image

Image
Author:  Back-n-Black [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
So what your saying is that you trust this company to make a product you want to use on your jeep. You trust the design to carry you and your passangers around the roads but when they tell you what you read on the internet was tested and ended with worse problems you choose not to believe them?

I am having a hard time figuring you out man. So you want to tell this company who makes and tests the kits they sell how they should be making the kit and how they messed it up? What tests and data do you have to back up your thoughts other than your pretty picture?

I have sold parts online for an automotive shop for 3 years and people with this attitude amaze me. I mean if you know best how it is done and have all kinds of testing and data to prove it why are you not building kits for people?
Author:  ATXKJ [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Actually the lack of testing by most vendors has been pretty well documented by the fails people have with the products.

This is not an isolated thread - If you'd spend some time reading about the problems - you'd see why the Bumpstops are recommended.
Author:  long_tall_texan [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
Gotta love the occasional trolls... :roll:
Author:  501 [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hey Long Tall, did you see this thread? http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=39130&highlight=
Author:  tommudd [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Back-n-Black wrote:
So what your saying is that you trust this company to make a product you want to use on your jeep. You trust the design to carry you and your passangers around the roads but when they tell you what you read on the internet was tested and ended with worse problems you choose not to believe them?

I am having a hard time figuring you out man. So you want to tell this company who makes and tests the kits they sell how they should be making the kit and how they messed it up? What tests and data do you have to back up your thoughts other than your pretty picture?

I have sold parts online for an automotive shop for 3 years and people with this attitude amaze me. I mean if you know best how it is done and have all kinds of testing and data to prove it why are you not building kits for people?


well lets see we have 5 or 6000 members, various people have done a bunch of testing to see what works and what does not. The Frankenlift was designed by people on here and continues to be one of the best if not the best lifts available anywhere for the KJ.
Personally I have been building and tearing apart 4 WDs for 30 plus years along with a lot of others on here. So we have over a million years of knowledge to share. :wink: :lol: We know what works and what does not more so than someone who just makes parts and throws them out there for us to buy. Do we need to show you what Rock Krawler made and tried to get us to buy? How about Rocky Road and their boat load of BS they feed unsuspecting owners. So if you think we are just a bunch of uneducated morans , you better sit back and read for the next month on what we do know. :wink:
Oh and welcome to LOST Black-n-Black

and if you want to know how I really feel just ask!!!! :wink: :wink: :lol: :lol:
Author:  long_tall_texan [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Amen. :lol:
Author:  long_tall_texan [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
501 wrote:
Hey Long Tall, did you see this thread? http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=39130&highlight=


Yep. Just posted a reply. The only kit that is not listed on the Daystar site now is the KJ09115BK kit. You know, the one with ALL of the parts we need...
Author:  501 [ Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:20 am ]
Post subject: 
long_tall_texan wrote:

Yep. Just posted a reply. The only kit that is not listed on the Daystar site now is the KJ09115BK kit. You know, the one with ALL of the parts we need...


That's wild, you wrote them a letter and now they removed it, I don't see why they don't ship all the KJ kits with the bumpstops since the two kits were being sold for the same price. I always thought 'the customer is always right', must not be for Daystar.
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