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| Has DC/Jeep lost it ? http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=460 |
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| Author: | warblade666 [ Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Has DC/Jeep lost it ? |
I think that IFS shouldn't be in anything that is 4x4. They drop the Cherokee D30 for the Liberty IFS, than they put IFS in the Grand Cherokee and I have heard that IRS is coming, now the 1/2 ton Dodge has IFS, and I bet the new 2007 Wrangler will have IFS too. The Dakota & Durango should have a D30 with V6 and D44 with V8 but what do they have IFS, and the Ram1500 should have a D44. I have yet to hear what axles will be under the new 2006 Comander, but it looks like Rustys has already got one. What is up with rack&pinion streering on 4x4s, they ware out and brake on frontwd cars & minivans, what do they think will happen on a 4x4 when it goes off road. I'm sure these parts are fine if rigs are left stock and are kept on (oh my) gravel roads MAX, but they never are and DC/Jeep knows this. I think that DC/Jeep should build these 4x4s for the people that buy them, and to do what Jeeps are meant to do. If I wanted IFS or IRS on a 4x4 I would have gotten a Honda or Toyota. What do you think costs more a D30 solid axle or an aluminum D30 IFS. Just what I think. What do all of you think about this? Maybe we can get DC/Jeep to fix this little problem. Would any of you want to buy a Wrangler with IFS or 4wheel ind. susp.? I can just see putting 37x12.5s on that... 04 KJ 96 XJ 78 Z-28 |
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| Author: | superspeckman [ Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
While many agree with you (including myself) it's simple economics. 90%+ Jeep 4x4's will never see off-road duty. 95%+ Liberty's will never go off-road. At Camp Jeep on the road thay had an extremely tame "Off-Road" driving course set-up. During the speech you had to listen to prior, the workers stated most jeeps will never go off-pavement and this was a demonstration "off what the jeep is capable of". It was totally lame but you should of seen some of the people there looking like they just got of a roller coaster when they were done. Hopefully it'll build the desire in them to start really off-roading. For the most part IFS handles better as a DD on-road than SFA. Period. It would be awesome if DC would make a Liberty model with SFA targeting the 4x4 enthusiast but it's just not economical to do so. This niche market accounts for way too small a percentage of their total sales. Like I said I totally agree with you and would like to see a Liberty with some real off road options. Like the Rubicon is trying to do and Nissan is trying to do with the Xterra. Jeep's "Off-Road" course for Jeep owners:
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| Author: | hoss75 [ Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:25 am ] |
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Is that seriously they're off-road course?? It's just flat sand?! No hills or anything? |
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| Author: | vxla [ Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
But a stock KJ is *way* more capable than an Xterra; even though the KJ has less ground clearance. The way I see it, IFS is just a pain because there's not enough people out there using it, modifying it, etc. There *are* some benefits to IFS when wheeling. Think of a ledge one front tire is trying to get up on that is 36" high. Once the first tire is on the ledge, you will have better traction and more tire coverage with IFS than solid axle. |
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| Author: | 2003KJ [ Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: I have heard that IRS is coming
The IRS is coming!?!? Sorry, couldnt pass that up. As far as the Commander goes its gonna have the same set up as the KJ. IFS and solid rear. |
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| Author: | JJsTJ [ Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:43 am ] |
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Hmmmm.... Guess us West and AZ folks (and others) are not wheeling our IFS KJ's?! I have Thousands of pics of IFS KJ's wheeling Hard on very tough obstacles and having a blast doing it. These same obstacles have been considered by SFA vehicle owners to be Tough and when they have seen KJ's doing them they were amazed. How many of those KJ's has broken a Rack and pinion steering assy? I only know of One and he wheels tough trails up in Nor-Cal. How many aluminum diffs have broken in all those many off road miles? Three. Now I know it is strange to actually break a diff housing, but how many SFA rigs have been crippled on the trail by breaking axles, or other parts? My guess would be Many. I have watched heavily modded shorter wheelbase vehicles struggle up obstacles that a 2.5" lifted, 31.5" tire shod KJ walked up w/ no problem. I could go on and on about this. I think the bottom line really is how big do you want to go? If over 4" lift and 33" tires, I think a SFA is needed right now. (unless someone comes up w/ the cure to the aluminum housing problem and a GOOD larger lift) If you are not ready to step up to the Very tough trails that Require 33-35" tires minimum and lots of clearance, the 2.5" lifted KJ on 31-32" tires will perform Great on Many more tough trails than most imagine it will do. I have proof in pics and first hand experience. All that being said, I WANT A SFA KJ. Why? Because I want to go on trails that at a minimum require 33" tires and two lockers. Why bother w/ the KJ then when an XJ will do just fine? Because I like to be a little different, because I like the KJ, because I think a SFA KJ would be a great overall platform for wheeling, and many other reasons. I couldn't give a rats stupid about a tall lift for the Bling factor, I would actually prefer to keep the KJ as low as possible w/ a SFA to keep the CG low. I just want it to work well off road and give me just enough clearance for 33" tires. Ooooppppsss........My soap box just collapsed from my jumping up and down in excitement over the thought of a SFA KJ....Guess I will step down now...... It's not What you Wheel but How you wheel it! |
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| Author: | Original Bigfoot [ Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:15 am ] |
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Everything I have seen on the Commander is that, as far as running gear goes, the Commander is a Grand Cherokee with a different, slightly longer, body. (Which happens to look very much like a giant XJ Cherokee.) The drive train is identical to the Grand, right down to the wheelbase. And every drivetrain option available on the Grand will be on the Commander. I do believe there is an internal, Daimler/Chrysler struggle over the direction Jeep is taking. I drove a couple trail rides at Moab this year that were sponsored by Jeep, and the conversations were telling. There were some Jeep engineers on the rides, and they made it pretty apparent, in a nice, politically-correct way, that they had a long, hard, fight getting the Rubicon to market. The "bean counters" kept asserting the Rubicon would never sell in profitable numbers. As evidenced by sales figures, supported by the fact that D/C had to increase production of the Rubicon several times (and after the Unlimited came out, they quickly introduced a Rubicon Unlimited), there IS a market for "hard core" off-road vehicles. Daimler/Chrysler just didn't know it. I am still not sure they totally "get it". Daimler/Chrysler HAS a very off-road capable IFS suspension "sitting on the shelf". Basically, it is a hard-proven, pre-runner type suspension with tons of wheel-travel and apparently it is VERY durable, with on-pavement manners which equal, or even exceed, the IFS setup currently used. It was intended for the Liberty, and many of the Jeep engineers during the time of the Liberty's design process pushed very hard to get that suspension used. However, the "bean-counters" determined that it would have cost an extra $90 per vehicle to use that suspension. So, for less than 100 bucks per vehicle, D/C dumped the design and we ended up with what we have. Which for Daimler/Chrysler, and apparently for most Liberty purchasers, is "good enough". The "bean counters" won that one. I believe the feelings ran so strong during the Libertys design process, which also foretold the direction that Daimler/Chrysler was taking Jeep, that more than one long-time Jeep engineer left the company. I get the impression that Daimler/Chrysler's "bean counters" relented on the Rubicon primarily as a caveat to the engineers. D/C was afraid that more Jeep engineers were going to walk, and they knew they couldn't afford to lose the entire Jeep engineering department, especially during a time when General Motors was coming on strong with the Hummer H2. Incidentally, no-one at Jeep ever cared that Hummer used the seven-slot grille until Daimler took over. All of a sudden, the seven-slot grille was hot property, and Daimler sued (and lost) to try and keep GM from using it. What would have happened if the whole Jeep engineering department were to show up at GM one day? I am curious about the comment that a stock KJ Liberty is "more capable" than a stock Xterra. Four wheels on the ground, and the same two wheels spinning if open diffs, and same three if with a limited slip rear. And every Xterra I have ever seen has more ground clearance stock than any stock KJ. I would like to hear more detail/opinion on this. I am a long-time Jeep owner. However, I very nearly purchased an Xterra this year. The reason I chose a Liberty is that I am 6'4", and I didn't hit my head on the Liberty's roof when I sat in it. In an Xterra without a sunroof, my head hit the roof. And the Liberty had slightly better acceleration. Seems to me, however, that an Xterra would be a very capable stock rig. |
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| Author: | Guest [ Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I agree for the most part. A SFA Kj would be sweet. Other than that, there's not really much else I can add except... A KJ, is what it is and Jeep's sales bottom line is what it is. Let's face it, today we (off-roader's) are the minority of Jeep owners. Let's hope there's enough muscle at Jeep who will not forget us. |
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| Author: | krazz1e [ Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Toyota, Nissan and many others have been using IFS for years. Jeep/Chrysler to save thier own skin and contuine making these trucks made a smart and logical descion to intrdouce IFS on the Liberty and eventually the GC. While we know that IFS has limitations, properly modified our KJ's can go just about anywhere any SFA vechicle can go. I hope that they contuie making the wrangler in a SFA, if the day comes they switch to a IFS then I think we may be in trouble. As for IRS, I think that would be a great idea in a GC. 5% of KJ offroad and the new WK it's probably 1%. Don't be discourage, yeah many people will think you can't go on this trail or that trail, but it makes it more fun when you actually do it and see the look on thier faces. |
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| Author: | InCommando [ Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | DC |
DC's loyalty is to their stock holders, not us. Their interest lies in what moves new vehicles. All of us had the choice to choose something else when we bought our KJ's. If you, or I , did not do enough research and now feel "stuck" because of preceived KJ shortcomings, how is that DC's fault, not ours? I bought my '05 a a solid daily driver with good creature comforts, room for two car seats with easy access, a great price ($18,500), and the ability to get me to work when we get 8" of snow. I could have spent more money for a Wrangler X if I was willing to sacrifice room, creature comforts, and ride, but I did not. I could have spent another $9,000 for an Unlimited Rubi, but the same draw backs when I considered my needs led me to the KJ. The Xterra's I have seen sell for thousands more than I paid for my KJ, and the KJ blows away the other SUV's in its class. I have done some off-roading with my KJ, and I was pleasantly surprised at its ability. It exceeded my expectations, even stock. I do have some off-road experience. My current hard-core rig is a '71 Commando with a swapped-in 304, locked scout D44's front & rear, and little 33x12.5's. It is a decent off-road rig, but it sucks on-road. Previous 4x4's included a '45 CJ2A with 32's and 5.38 gears that I swapped a 225 V6 into, a '79 CJ5, and a '78 Dodge stepside with 38" swampers. You are right, the Commander is nothing but a re-bodied Grand. And I have read that the '07 TK will have solid axles front and rear. The replacemant for it, due in 2013 or so, is already being designed as independent at both ends, according to a "spy" article that was sent to me. Dodge only uses IFS in its 1/2 ton trucks, using solid axles for the 2500 & 3500 series. But GM has used IFS in ALL of its light-duty trucks for nearly 20 years, even duallies. Sure, there are people who do a SFA swap on them , and kits are available for that ( as KJ kits will be available). But there are tens of thousands of work and farm trucks out there with high milage and IFS. My brothers single rear wheel 3500, a 1991, that he uses on his farm has 170,000 miles on it and IFS that does get used. I am tired of hearing about XJ's. I am not questioning the trucks themselves, but if people were buying them in sufficient numbers, the re-designed vehicle called the KJ would have probably been more like the XJ. Kj sales blow XJ sales away. And that is what DC cares about. They do not give a fig that you can buy a 10 year old Xj and modify it, as that does nothing for their bottom line. There must be a lot of youngsters out there that cannot remember the XJ's introduction in 1984. It was considered a travesty and the end of 4x4 civilization in general and Jeep in particular: unibody, crappy 2.5L I4 or crappier 2.8L GM V6, renault-sourced wiring, etc... The first run of XJ's, up to '88 or '89, were horrible stock. And yet the XJ now has a cult following. I wonder what we will be saying about our KJ's in 2015, especially after a redesign or two? The first run of KJ's are head-and-shoulders above the first XJ's. I really appreciate the trail-blazers out there leading the off-road charge with our rigs. They are paving the way for the rest of us who, like me, are not willing or able to make those mods on brand-new KJ's. But their work will mean that I have more choices in a year or two when I am more comfortable modifying my KJ. For me, right now, it was easier for me to build a rig for less than the purchase price of the RK 7up lift ( about $3000!) in my Commando to beat up off road and keep my KJ to drive. But someday..... Ok, I will go take my meds now........ |
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| Author: | Original Bigfoot [ Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Seems if Daimler/Chrysler wanted to maintain the legendary off-road reputation of Jeep, they would think a little more about the decisions they make concerning the brand. It wouldn't take much more than a generation to totally ruin the name. If D/C wants to build watered-down Jeeps, they have Dodge! Do we all really believe that Jeeps will be as popular in 10 or 20 years if they are merely re-badged Dodges? Interestingly, Dodge is keeping solid axles under their heavy-duty stuff. Look at the Power Wagon. Seems Dodge is "out Jeeping" Jeep with that one. As for Cherokee/Liberty sales figures, the Cherokee hit record production in 2000, 15 years after it was introduced. The only reason it's sales dropped off in 2001 is because everyone was waiting for the Liberty, which is a natural market effect. Who wants old milk when the fresh stuff is just around the corner? Why is Jeep making the Commander look like the old Cherokee? (And not much different than the old Wagoneer, which was considered for it's name?) Perhaps they have learned a valuble lesson from the market. If Daimler/Chrysler cannot maintain a seperate brand identity for Jeep, then they might as well send it the way of Plymouth. After all, when Liberty's production run ends, perhaps in 2007, the Liberty platform, (which IS a decent all-around platform), is already in the works to become the Dodge Nitro. Anyone know what the Jeep Freedom, rumoured to be the Liberty's replacement, is going to look like? |
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| Author: | macgyver [ Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: DC |
InCommando wrote: DC's loyalty is to their stock holders, not us. Their interest lies in what moves new vehicles.
All of us had the choice to choose something else when we bought our KJ's. If you, or I , did not do enough research and now feel "stuck" because of preceived KJ shortcomings, how is that DC's fault, not ours? I bought my '05 a a solid daily driver with good creature comforts, room for two car seats with easy access, a great price ($18,500), and the ability to get me to work when we get 8" of snow. I could have spent more money for a Wrangler X if I was willing to sacrifice room, creature comforts, and ride, but I did not. I could have spent another $9,000 for an Unlimited Rubi, but the same draw backs when I considered my needs lead me to the KJ. The Xterra's I have seen sell for thousands more than I paid for my KJ, and the KJ blows away the other SUV's in its class. I have done some off-roading with my KJ, and I was pleasantly surprised at its ability. It exceeded my expectations, even stock. I do have some off-road experience. My current hard-core rig is a '71 Commando with a swapped-in 304, locked scout D44's front & rear, and little 33x12.5's. It is a decent off-road rig, but it sucks on-road. Previous 4x4's included a '45 CJ2A with 32's and 5.38 gears that I swapped a 225 V6 into, a '79 CJ5, and a '78 Dodge stepside with 38" swampers. You are right, the Commander is nothing but a re-bodied Grand. And I have read that the '07 TK will have solid axles front and rear. The replacemant for it, due in 2013 or so, is already being designed as independent at both ends, according to a "spy" article that was sent to me. Dodge only uses IFS in its 1/2 ton trucks, using solid axles for the 2500 & 3500 series. But GM has used IFS in ALL of its light-duty trucks for nearly 20 years, even duallies. Sure, there are people who do a SFA swap on them , and kits are available for that ( as KJ kits will be available). But there are tens of thousands of work and farm trucks out there with high milage and IFS. My brothers single rear wheel 3500, a 1991, that he uses on his farm has 170,000 miles on it and IFS that does get used. I am tired of hearing about XJ's. I am not questioning the trucks themselves, but if people were buying them in sufficient numbers, the re-designed vehicle called the KJ would have probably been more like the XJ. Kj sales blow XJ sales away. And that is what DC cares about. They do not give a fig that you can buy a 10 year old Xj and modify it, as that does nothing for their bottom line. There must be a lot of youngsters out there that cannot remember the XJ's intorduction in 1984. It was considered a travesty and the end of 4x4 civilization in general and Jeep in particular: unibody, crappy 2.5L I4 or crappier 2.8L GM V6, renault-sourced wiring, etc... The first run of XJ's, up to '88 or '89, were horrible stock. And yet the XJ now has a cult following. I wonder what we will be saying about our KJ's in 2015, especially after a redesign or two? The first run of KJ's are head-and-shoulders above the first XJ's. I really appreciate the trail-blazers out there leading the off-road charge with our rigs. They are paving the way for the rest of us who, like me, are not willing or able to make those mods on brand-new KJ's. But their work will mean that I have more choices in a year or two when I am more comfortable modifying my KJ. For me, right now, it was easier for me to build a rig for less than the purchase price of the RK 7up lift ( about $3000!) in my Commando to beat up off road and keep my KJ to drive. But someday..... Ok, I will go take my meds now........ Man! We had one of those 2 door 1985 XJ's with the turd 2.8L V6. That XJ was a pile o |
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| Author: | Kaboom [ Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Has DC/Jeep lost it ? |
warblade666 wrote: I think that IFS shouldn't be in anything that is 4x4.
I guess it depends on what your definition of "off-road" use is. If your idea of "off-road" is less than ten mph, then you bought the wrong Jeep if your Jeep has IFS. Hate to say it, but you should have known that. If your idea of "off-road" includes speeds over ten mph, then IFS may just be better than a solid axle. I would bet that the people that compete in the Baja races consider those races to be "off-road" races. Pick up a copy of Off Road Magazine someday, Phil Howell is the editor now a days. You may be surprised with some of the technology available for IFS. Four wheel drive pre-runners have bolt-on suspension systems with 16" of wheel travel, and two wheel drives run up to 30" of wheel travel in front, and 40" of wheel travel in back. There is more to going off-road than spending all day at less than ten mph. It would be nice if the Liberty had the same selection of "off-road" suspension systems available for it that the new F-150 truck already has. Instead we have a measly selection of spacers, and a few different rate springs to choose from |
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| Author: | hoss75 [ Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Has DC/Jeep lost it ? |
Kaboom wrote: I guess it depends on what your definition of "off-road" use is. If your idea of "off-road" is less than ten mph, then you bought the wrong Jeep if your Jeep has IFS. Hate to say it, but you should have known that. hmm.. I think there's a very large number of members here who would argue with you about that compassionately. |
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| Author: | KJLoKi [ Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
...Note to self... Find a suspension engineering soccer milf that likes to go off-roading! The quest for the holy grail continues....! -Lance |
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| Author: | Original Bigfoot [ Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | The end is near!!! The end is near!!! |
Here is an article about the future of Daimler/Chrysler Jeep vehicles from Autoweek via Mike's Totally Free Jeep News...read it and weep...Oh, and according to a person at the plant where the MK49 (Compass?) will be made, they have already put together a few.. "Jeep will introduce two car-based vehicles next year that are expected to generate combined annual sales of 90,000 units. Jeep has not said what vehicles are planned. But industry sources say Jeep's first car-based models will share a platform with the sleek, front-wheel-drive Dodge Caliber hatchback, which replaces the Dodge Neon. That platform was engineered for awd applications. The two Jeeps are code-named MK49 and MK74, according to the source. The MK49 will have awd, sporty styling with a wagon silhouette that is low to the ground. The MK74 will have a taller roofline so it looks more like an SUV, and the wheelbase is expected to be slightly longer. While the MK49 is expected to be targeted at Forester buyers, the MK74 will be aimed at Ford Escape, Honda CR-V and Toyota RAV4 buyers. Both vehicles are the first Jeeps not engineered for severe off-road use." (Italics added by yours truly.) |
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| Author: | Kaboom [ Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The end is near!!! The end is near!!! |
Original Bigfoot wrote: Both vehicles are the first Jeeps not engineered for severe off-road use." (Italics added by yours truly.)
I'd like some of what he is smoking. Hate to say it, but neither the Liberty nor the current Jeep Grand Cherokee are engineered for what I would consinder "severe off-road use". Maybe that is part of the problem, Jeep engineers are living in fantasy land. |
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| Author: | hoss75 [ Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
"Severe" in this case is a relative term... If you've grown up in a urban area and never been off-road at all, then you'd probably think the Liberty (in stock configuration) can do some pretty 'severe' off-roading.. however, those of us on this board would not consider the stock Liberty to be capable of 'severe' off-roading. |
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