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Whats up with haters??
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Author:  Bullet [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Whats up with haters??
Ok, I have a question....I get that some people who drive Jeeps don't think that our Libbys are "real" Jeeps. But what I don't understand is WHY? The Cherokees and Grand Cherokees are driven by just as many "soccer moms" and "mall rats" as our Libbys are. I have read blips about the Libbys having different something or other, but that was before I really knew much about my KJ and can't find the websites again. Could y'all do me a favor and explain this to me? I would like to be prepared when I come up against a "hater". Thanks!
Author:  dano104 [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
Personally I believe it all boils down to "fan boys" when I say fan boy, I mean that no matter what else comes out i.e. other brands, other models. "They" are extremely loyal to "their" model. Almost allways to the point of closedmindedness. So I natural call them Fan Boys.

As to our differences, I believe they are not very impressed with our front Independant Suspension.... Which is something I don't totally understand either. Because the military version of the humvee was full independant suspension, and they will go anywhere.

Some people can make a P@ssing match out of anything.

I hope this helps....
Author:  CaKJFreedom [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Some just don't know, some don't know and don't want to learn what a KJ is capable of. So...we'll teach the ones we can and ignore the rest. Now go out there and show them what KJ can do!
Author:  Se7enLC [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whats up with haters??
Bullet wrote:
Ok, I have a question....I get that some people who drive Jeeps don't think that our Libbys are "real" Jeeps. But what I don't understand is WHY? The Cherokees and Grand Cherokees are driven by just as many "soccer moms" and "mall rats" as our Libbys are. I have read blips about the Libbys having different something or other, but that was before I really knew much about my KJ and can't find the websites again. Could y'all do me a favor and explain this to me? I would like to be prepared when I come up against a "hater". Thanks!


Hater: The Liberty has IFD (Independent Front Suspension) instead of SFA (Solid Front Axle), and therefore it isn't a real Jeep

Truth: IFS is more complex than SFA: This means that it is more difficult and expensive to lift. It also means that it is more likely to break (more parts = more chance of breaking)
Truth: IFS and SFA articulate differently: When one wheel of an SFA goes up in the air (on a rock, etc), the other is pushed down, since it is attached through a straight axle. Classic Jeepers say that this is better articulation, and gives more traction. The flip-side of that is that IFS allows one tire to lift in the air *without affecting* the other tire. Both tires can achieve maximum ground contact, since they won't have to ride on the sidewall on smaller bumps.
Truth: The Grand Cherokee and Commander Both have IFS, as do MANY other trucks: The wrangler is the only jeep in DCs line that still has SFA. That doesn't mean that IFS is better than SFA, it just means that the GC and Commander shouldn't be left out when it comes to hating the mall-jeeps.

Hater: The Liberty looks CUTE. Why would anyone want a CUTE jeep?

Truth: Yup, it is: The curved hood and body, the round headlights. It's a "cute" jeep. I don't like it any more than you do, that's why I got a renegade.

Hater: It's a Soccer Mom car. And it has grocery bag hooks

Truth: Yup, that's true : It's not our fault that the Jeep Liberty is the #1 selling compact SUV. We can compete with the cute-utes like the escape, rav4, crv, and still keep the real offroadability. Just because soccer moms buy the liberty doesn't make it less of a jeep. And I like my grocery bag hooks!

Hater: They don't make mods for the Liberty, so it's not a real jeep

Truth: The Liberty has recently been climbing in the number of available mods. Right now there are at least 15 different lift kits, 4 or 5 manufacturers of lockers, a few choices for replacement bumpers, lots of roof racks, and plenty of room for custom work. We can't hold a candle to the wrangler aftermarket, but the wrangler has been around forever - the Liberty just hit the market in 2002! You'll notice that the GC and Commander have even less available for them.

Hater: You can't fit large tires in the wheel wells. 29"? What a joke!

Truth: : It is a little bit disappointing . We need a lift to fit 31" tires. Wranglers come stock with tires that are smaller than we have, but can fit tires that are larger with less work. Cherokees have similar issues to ours, they need to modify or lift to get large tires.

The overall truth of the matter is this: The liberty is NOT as capable as a wrangler. It is in a way to be considered a crossover vehicle. It performs well on the highway, it has a lot of cargo space, great visibility, high comfort level, tight turning radius, etc. It is a vehicle that can drive on the road during the week and on the trail on the weekend. People who drive wranglers at 70mph can't hear the radio or their passengers and can't feel their butt after an hour on the road. We get highway comfort and offroadability in one package.
Author:  JJsTJ [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
"The overall truth of the matter is this: The liberty is NOT as capable as a wrangler."

But Can be made to be. Just like a Stock Wrangler isn't as capable as a modified one. "Real Jeeps are built not bought" (While I don't Totally agree) rings true when it comes to modified Jeeps. Out of the box, a regular old TJ isn't as capable as a Rubicon, but it sure can be made Way better than even a lifted, mildy modded Rubi and for way less $$ overall.
Same with the KJ. SFA, Atlas, big gears, bigger tires, etc. and a wheel base advantage and it will outperform a modded TJ in many instances.

I love Jeeps. Just big, dumb, expensive kids toys. Sort of like having an R/C car you can sit in and drive. Nobody that wheels keeps a Jeep stock.
Ignore the haters and move on. Spend your energy talking to those that care and have an open mind about All Jeeps. blah blah blah....I could go on for hours again, but I'll shut my pie hole for now.... :lol:
Author:  LibertyCRD [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yeah what he said. Last time I went wheeling it was with a Jeep Wrangler YJ, and two Toyotas with big lifts and 33x12.50 MTs. You should have seen the look on their faces when every time they turned around I was right there behind them. There was only one hill I couldn't follow them up the entire day. And I'm unlocked in both diffs with AT tires!

But after the day was done and we hit the highway for home..I also had the most quiet most comfortable rig on the road.

Heck, I towed one of those lifted Toyotas on a flatbed trailer last weekend and got 14 miles per gallon. Wrangler guys are getting that daily just driving to work!

The KJ is the BEST ALL-AROUND SUV on the market in my opinion, and while it might be "cute", with some accessories they can look quite masculine too. Besides, people are never going to change their false opinions about the KJ unless they start seeing more guys like us on the trail in them.
Author:  Se7enLC [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
JJsKJ wrote:
"The overall truth of the matter is this: The liberty is NOT as capable as a wrangler."

But Can be made to be. Just like a Stock Wrangler isn't as capable as a modified one. "Real Jeeps are built not bought" (While I don't Totally agree) rings true when it comes to modified Jeeps. Out of the box, a regular old TJ isn't as capable as a Rubicon, but it sure can be made Way better than even a lifted, mildy modded Rubi and for way less $$ overall.
Same with the KJ. SFA, Atlas, big gears, bigger tires, etc. and a wheel base advantage and it will outperform a modded TJ in many instances. ...


Yeah, I didn't mean to bad-mouth the liberty with that, but unmodded, it's true. Given the same mods to both Jeeps, the TJ is going to A) Cost less and B). perform better. The only truth I can see there is the wheel-base advantage, since that is something you can't add to a TJ. Everything else you can do to a KJ you can do to a TJ for less $$.

You just said "add an SFA and it'll outperform a modded TJ". That's like saying "Replace the KJ with a completely different vehicle and it'll do great". If you do heavy modding like that, there's really nothing KJ-like about it left. You may as well start with a metal box if you're just going to replace both axles and all the suspension!
Author:  Bullet [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Everyone who posted...That is exactly what information I was looking for! You all summed it up perfectly! Now I can understand and therefore refute any statement that is not correct. I hate when someone talks out their rear end but has no clue. I did not want to be one of "those" people. Thanks for arming me!! I am ready to do battle....kidding. I typically don't hang with ppl who dis my KJ, but on those occasions when I feel like engaging in a good debate, now I can! Thanks!!
Author:  ATXKJ [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't think it matter how good or bad the KJ is offroad, or whether it's even driven offroad or how it looks -
I think it only matters that it's different.
Psychologists have been able to generate Us vs Them responses by utterly trivial differences - taking a classroom and dividing it into team A and B or Blue-eyed vs Brown Eyed.
It taps into one of the more primitive parts of the brain - it's emotionally driven and has nothing to do with logic and only looks to reason as an after the fact rationalization.

Personally if someone has that attitude - I don't worry about them - I know why I bought my Jeep - what my reasons are - and I focus on what I need to work on - not them. That's more of a philosophy that an argument.
Author:  JJsTJ [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
"You just said "add an SFA and it'll outperform a modded TJ". That's like saying "Replace the KJ with a completely different vehicle and it'll do great". If you do heavy modding like that, there's really nothing KJ-like about it left. You may as well start with a metal box if you're just going to replace both axles and all the suspension!"

A metal box is all any Jeep is. My reasoning on the comparison is Many TJ's or Any Jeeps for that matter end up replacing both axles to go bigger. No difference with the KJ except you are replacing IFS w/ SFA. A TJ with D60's or aftermarket axles under it and a an aftermarket transfer case and small block Chevy under the hood to Me is still a Jeep.
Just imagine if Jeep had been able to build two versions of the KJ, SFA versions just like an XJ and regular IFS ones. Which one would have been more popular with wheelers? I know which one I would have bought if given the choice. (SFA for sure. Though I do Love my IFS KJ for what it is and where it has taken me. In a perfect world, I would have one of each and I Am working on that. :wink: )

I think a TJ w/ 2.5" lift, 31-32" tires and lockers would still not totally outperform a 2.5" lifted KJ w/ other mods being the same. I know there would have to be some driving style differences to get to the same place and perhaps greater risk of damage to the KJ due to less clearance in a couple spots, but in the end I bet the KJ would shine. I watched modded CJ's, TJ's and Zuks in Moab struggle with a particular spot on Poison Spider and the KJ's walked right up it. Sure there were other spots where more rocker clearance was needed that those vehicles excelled but the KJ's did fine by scraping the bars over the spot.

BTW, I didn't see Anything you said as bad mouthing, just a friendly discussion. I see your points and understand. Oh and you Can add wheelbase to a TJ given enough money just like anything. Oh and you Can add some wheel base to a KJ too...... Stay tuned to see what I am speaking of. :wink: :D
Author:  benmar2000 [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Most people keep forgetting about the MUTT.. The M151 Jeep..

Image

Looks like an IFS to me... :D

Ben
Author:  raceinfan [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
look WHO CARES about what others say just enjoy it & be glad you belong to a very awesome family of KJ owners we're an ELITE bunch & love our rigs modded or other wise,I get realy ticked off when this subject comes up :evil:
Author:  dano104 [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
You are absoulutely right, we are way too old to give a flying f*** what others think. You guys are an excellent bunch, and a definate asset to the kj community.
Author:  Bullet [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
look WHO CARES about what others say just enjoy it & be glad you belong to a very awesome family of KJ owners we're an ELITE bunch & love our rigs modded or other wise,I get realy ticked off when this subject comes up


Much agreed, I only asked so that I could understand the differences and such. Don't want to spend my valuable time worrying over it. But those who don't understand something tend to wind up with thier foot in thier mouth. I don't ever want to be one of those kind of ppl. Besides, the only stupid question is one not asked. That being said, I am over it.
Author:  dano104 [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Bullet wrote:
Quote:
look WHO CARES about what others say just enjoy it & be glad you belong to a very awesome family of KJ owners we're an ELITE bunch & love our rigs modded or other wise,I get realy ticked off when this subject comes up


Much agreed, I only asked so that I could understand the differences and such. Don't want to spend my valuable time worrying over it. But those who don't understand something tend to wind up with thier foot in thier mouth. I don't ever want to be one of those kind of ppl. Besides, the only stupid question is one not asked. That being said, I am over it.


lol, that is soooo funny, that is the only way that I learn. By making a total fool of myself.
Author:  Bullet [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
I got your back...go 'head make a fool out of yourself. I will be there to help ya clean toe jam outta your mouth...hehe :lol: :lol: :lol:
Author:  dano104 [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
I allways tell my daughter ( she is 7 ) that the best way to learn is from your mistakes. I hope I'm not dementing her.

I forgot to mention she is a die hard jeeper too. :)
Author:  Bullet [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
So is my 5 year old. She had to have the pink Barbie Jeep "just like mommys". She recognized the Jeep letters and front grill. She loves to "go find mud"! God bless lil Jeep girls.
Author:  dano104 [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
My wife drives a Hyundai, and my daughter does not like it at all. "lets take the jeep" is all I ever hear. You are right jeep girls rock. I'm thinking about getting her one in a 3-5 years and starting to build her a rig. She is my "shotgun"..... :)
Author:  Bullet [ Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well that sounds like a photo-op for a picture share!!
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