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Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
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Author:  imclumzy [ Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
Please help me make a Liberty buying decision :seuss:

I am a prospective KJ Liberty owner, hoping to make a purchase in the next 2-3 months. I like that the Liberty is a small ute for the city but is capable of towing up to 5000#. The Liberty will be my daily driver and towing duties would be restricted to 15-20 a year. I intend to trailer my Miata track-car on a car hauler, so the load should be between 4000-4500 including my gear ... generally towing locally within a 2-hour radius, but occasionally tow long-distance 6+ hours away.

I was first drawn to the Liberty because of the CRD option. Big pros are the fuel economy and the conservative 5000# rated towing capacity. The cons are that they are slightly more expensive then a gasser of the same vintage, generally have higher mileage and the biggest unknown for me is the maintenance (diesel mech), reliability, and part costs.

On doing some reading about the gasser Liberty, it would seem they are quite capable of towing 5000# with OD off. The fuel costs would be higher than a CRD. Big pros are that they can be had with lower mileage, slightly less expensive than a CRD, much more common, and can be worked on by any regular mechanic.

As owners and enthusiasts I appreciate any insight you could provide to help me make an informed buying decision. Thanks!
Author:  Randy B [ Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
Well this is my two cents, I have never towed with mine, maintenance cost is higher on any diesel than a gasser. Finding a mechanic that has the tools and know how to work on the Crd can be hard to find. Parts can be a problem getting. There has been some people that has had issuses with overheating, blown headgaskets, warpped heads. Also if the timing belt breaks or it jumps it is costly, should be changed at 100,000 miles. I have not had any major problems with mine. You may want to come over to the CRD Love that Troque Area and read the posts.
Hope this helps
Are you a SCCA racer?
Author:  HoosierJeeper [ Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
I think for what you do, a gasser with the towpackage would be great. Nothing against a CRD (almost bought one, but no sunroof broke the deal).
Author:  imclumzy [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
I've been scouring the CRD sub-forum for the past couple of months and I've seen many of the problems that folks are having. As you say many people have catastrophic problems but others like you have no major issues. What I can't seem to determine is what is the difference? Why do some have great reliability and some do not.

On the gasser side, how good is it for towing 4000-4500#? Does it struggle up moderate hills? I'd love to hear about the pros and cons.

No I'm not an SCCA racer ... more of.a track day enthusiast with some time attack aspirations. But I've seen and experienced enough breakdowns to know its very convenient and safe to simply load a broken car onto a hauler.
Author:  audiboy86 [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
I use my CRD to tow my 68 camaro to and from shows and I am armored to the gills and run a full tri-axle trailer for the camaro. I have never had and overheating issue. Even in the hills and with a good brake control and good trailer brakes I would hesitate to tow 6000. The issues you hear about are scattered at best and if well kept the CRDs can run into the 500K range. Also there is enough support on here with tools and knowledge and finding parts that we shouldnt have many issues. Plus owning a CRD is a love hate relationship you love the power and fuel mileage but the trade off is doing a lot of work yourself. The gasser in the hills with that much wieght and no heavy duty cooler will suffer greatly. Also fuel mileage even without the trailer is 20 at best where the CRD without anything done is in the high to mid 20s. With about 1200 in a CRD your reliability and fuel mileage will greatly increase and you longevity will increase. Even with a few simple mods the reliability will go way up most of which can be done for less then 100.
Author:  fastring [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
When I tow, its very hilly, but I am not overly impressed with the CRDs towing ability. I cant imagine towing anywhere near 5k with less torque. At 20k miles a year, the CRD might be worth it. If you have an extra $1000-3000 to put into it right away ($1k if no timing belt needed, $3k if you need a tbelt), then I'd for the CRD, just do the mods and it will be ok. With that much towing, I'd plan on a torque converter too.

If that much $ doesnt sound worth it, then I'd go with the gas. Part of the "fun" of the CRD is the drive, I love diesels and I love the range (not having to fill up all the time). If that isnt a plus for you, then the gas is probably the better decision. If you wont work on it yourself, the gas is the better decision. Pulling up to your spot at the SCCA races with the diesel rattling will get many fun conversations started though.
Author:  audiboy86 [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
I have towed with both had and ex who had a gas 05 with less miles and I hooked it up to the same trailer empty. And it didn't feel anywhere near as capable and I only towed it 15 miles. But fast ring is right if you won't work on it some yourself it probably isnt worth it. But if you like to tinker and want something that few have ever seen and even fewer will know what it truly is a CRD is a must.
Author:  imclumzy [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
I should have clarified in my original post, I tow 15 to 20 times per year approximately 100 miles per trip. Not 15-20k miles per year.

Does that make any difference in terms of recommendation?

In terms of the CRD $3000 worth of initial maintenance, can you explain? I don't see how a timing belt change is going to cost $2k? I do tinker with my track car(s) but usually leave anything that will take more than 1/2 a day up to my mechanic.
Author:  audiboy86 [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
Well a lot of people feel that a GED tune is a must and a new filter head if it hasn't been replaced yet also and EHM. So 450 to 500 for the GDE tune and about 200 for the new filter head and about 15 to 20 for the EHM Some consider the transmission tune a must also (300). So you figure all that with about 200 in fluids and filters your looking about between 800 to 1200 to increase its reliability about as high as it can get.
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
The timing belt job with waterpump will generally be between $1200-$1600 after all said and done on a CRD,if you can find someplace willing to do the job as it's not a fun job.
Author:  boilermaker2 [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
Have you driven a CRD yet? If it is not love at first drive, walk away. I enjoy my drive to and from work. After almost 7 years, I finally gifted myself a new radio and ditched Sirius just last weekend. I could worry about stuff but I just treat her well and she treats me well. I don't get the mileage that some here do but that's probably because of the driving I do. I tow small loads all the time (1-2 times per week in the summer) and occasionally larger ones. I put Firestone bags in the back and I did trailing arm recall. Not a half-ton for sure, still a great blend of all the niches. I can't complain. Over 157k and we'll go to work tomorrow...
B2
Author:  sota [ Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
Image

I tow with a gasser and a stick.
Author:  imclumzy [ Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
Sota, can you elaborate on your towing rig?

Is that a steel or aluminum trailer? Weight?

What is you gross weight with tires and gear?

How far and how often do you tow? Hilly?

Did you do anything to modify your gasser for toe duties?
Author:  sota [ Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
trailer is a full steel deck, 20', 4' beaver, twin 3500# braked axles. no idea what the empty weight on the trailer is but guesstimate it at 2600#.
I have a MaxBrake controller installed in the jeep (bar none, the best.)
no changes made to the jeep except for wiring and hitch installation (didn't have any tow package.)
everything is running full synthetic fluids since towing is hard on any vehicle.
my round trip to the track I haunt the most is 260+ miles. I wouldn't call the route particuarly hilly (NJTP between exits 13 and 3, plus the rest of the way into south jersey for Millville.)

I spend most of my time crusing and in cruise control at an indicated 70mph in overdrive (6th gear. again note it's a MANUAL. AUTO trans people have different rules) with only the occasional downshift to 5th just because I think the grade calls for it.

I just weighed the whole kit after my last trip... 10,060# on the scales. that includes...
Jeep with full tank of gas minus 40 miles towing (call it 3 gallons out)
car @ 2900#
4 spare tires for the car
spare for the jeep
spare for the trailer
winch (heavy at about 70#)
battery (group 29 about 40#)
the aluminum rack for the tires
crap load of spare parts, bits, tools, fluids, etc in the jeep
my fat booty :mrgreen:

I'm hoping to ditch this trailer in favor of something smaller and lighter. it's a heavy witch. the one i want to replace it with is 18' steel deck but open center. believe it weighs 1500# though... so I'd be dropping nearly half a ton of weight. trying to find the URL of it right now.
Author:  sota [ Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
http://www.econotrailer.com/Open.html

that's the one I'm thinking of replacing it with. 18' version.
they're only an hour from the in-laws so i figure if I can get some kind of decent discount for picking it up I would. at least it would make the trip out to see the in-laws not so much of a waste.
Author:  imclumzy [ Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
Wowzers, you're towing over 6000# with a manual liberty gasser? Isn't the manual only rated to tow 3500#?
Author:  sota [ Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
more like 5800#. pretty sure the liberty weighs 4200#. meant to go back over to the scales after I unloaded everything, but I was pretty beat up. :mrgreen:
Author:  mikey1273 [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
I will say maintenance has not been an issue for me in near 3 years. sure I had to replace a thermostat and the part was $100 alone, and oil changes are more expensive due to the oil it needs. To Keep the oil change cost down I do it on my CRD I get my Rotella T6 5w40 at walmart by the gallon.

I have a GDE tune and PROvent. I tow a popup camper and a utility trailer from time to time. my CRD tows like a dream with what I pull.

Mileage is great. I get about 19-22 in town and have seen up to 33 highway. towing the popup I have gotten 25 on mostly highway.

I have had very few problems with it and I think that has to do with what I learned here. My crd has been as relaible as the Subaru I had before it maybe more.

I can't tell you anything about a gasser liberty because I have never done more than ride in one, never got behind the wheel of any gas liberty.
Author:  imclumzy [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
Thanks for the responses. My plan is to take a drive of a Liberty CRD before I get too emotionally attached to the idea of the great gas mileage and towing capability. Anyone in the Toronto area with a CRD care to meet up? :jester:

Based on the CRDs in my area they are generally in the 150,000km = ~100,000 miles range. Some are around the 200km = 125miles ... from what I'm reading here that is an insignificant amount of mileage. I intend to spring for all the maintenance as soon as I get it including the timing belt, water pump, provent install, etc.

For the gassers, I've been able to find very reasonably priced low kilometer examples like one at 130km/80miles for ~$9000CND with the tow package.
Author:  ScorpioPup [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gasser vs. CRD maintenance and reliability for towing
I own a 2002 3.7L KJ and a 2005 KJ CRD. The CRD has amazing torque but getting parts can be problem. I suggest an eBay UK account! DO NOT DELAY routine maintenance, especially the timing belt change. The 3.7L is tow rated at #3500. I have towed a 1999 BMW from Sacramento,CA to Denver,CO with the CRD. A little overheating on Vail Pass but no other problems. My 2002 has 218000 miles and the motor is getting a little tired.
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