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 Post subject: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:16 pm 
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Preface: 2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4, totally-open rear axle. I'm not really thrilled about that last part.

It's been probably close to if not actually a decade since I last looked into what traction aids are available for the C8.25, but I'm not really finding a whole lot more for them out there now than I did then.

My ideal setup for the KJ: the ECTEDs I had in both ends of my last XJ. Loved having LSDs when unlocked as well as full lockup at the flip of a switch. Given that Auburn doesn't make an ECTED for the C8.25 and I'm not going to sink the money into an iron pumpkin for the D30 at the front just so that I can stick an ECTED in it, that route unfortunately appears to be out. So, what are my options for just the rear on the KJ?

Doing an axle swap on this vehicle is not feasible. Given how it's going to be used, it simply can't be justified.

To the best of my knowledge, no selectable locker other than the ECTED operates as an LSD when unlocked. If this is actually the case as far as the C8.25 is concerned, I'd prefer an LSD that's more aggressive than a Trac-Lok. Having a nomally-open axle that goes fully-locked automatically (e.g., a Detroit Locker or similar) would be less-desirable than a really solid LSD in this case.

So... What are my options?

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245/75R16 BFG TA KO2s
OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
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Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
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Provent 200
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Last edited by casm on Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:42 pm 
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Best options.................

ARB air locker
Detroit TrueTrac(gear based LSD)
Detroit Locker

I would stay away from lunchbox lockers like aussie and the like.


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 Post subject: Re: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:49 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
Best options.................

ARB air locker


Good lockers, but just not the route I want to go with this vehicle. The lack of LSD when unlocked means that their usefulness on-road (and I'm being realistic about how we're going to use this one by saying that) is reduced.

Quote:
Detroit TrueTrac(gear based LSD)


This is actually my first choice at the moment. However, I have zero experience with them. If anyone can tell me why I should or should not go with them (and/or suggest equivalent alternatives), I'm all ears.

Quote:
Detroit Locker

I would stay away from lunchbox lockers like aussie and the like.


Agreed. Ditto spooling the rear end. Both are right out.

_________________
2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
245/75R16 BFG TA KO2s
OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
V6 Airbox


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 Post subject: Re: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:33 pm 
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I can tell you where I live having that open rear diff when unlocked is a safety feature with snow/ice and many,many hills/mountains as I live in Colorado.I've had a ARB in the rear of my KJ since '04 and would not have any other back there.

When I was still IFS I ran the DTT up front in the D30A and loved it,was a great "forget about it" front traction aid and was outstanding in the winter and made it much safer to drive in snow/ice while being able to keep the rear ARB unlocked and not fish tailing.


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 Post subject: Re: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:30 am 
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casm wrote:
Detroit TrueTrac(gear based LSD)This is actually my first choice at the moment. However, I have zero experience with them. If anyone can tell me why I should or should not go with them (and/or suggest equivalent alternatives), I'm all ears.

No need for friction modifiers

No clutches to wear out

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 Post subject: Re: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:19 am 
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I guess I'm the black sheep.

I've had a lunchbox or Detroit in every daily-driver vehicle for the last 10 years. Its nice to not get stuck doing mild exploring in remote areas, and be able to road-trip safely in the winter.

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Mine: 1993 W250, Cummins/5spd/NP205/3.54, Lockright, ~3" lift, 315/75R16 Duratracs, extra smoke, more noise, 374,000km


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 Post subject: Re: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:31 am 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
I can tell you where I live having that open rear diff when unlocked is a safety feature with snow/ice and many,many hills/mountains as I live in Colorado.I've had a ARB in the rear of my KJ since '04 and would not have any other back there.


As far as driving with a fully-locked axle in ice or snow goes, I agree with you. But I'd much rather have an LSD in the rear in those same circumstances than a fully-open axle. Having driven both in the same weather, there are too many times where full lockup is too much and no lockup is too little.

Quote:
When I was still IFS I ran the DTT up front in the D30A and loved it,was a great "forget about it" front traction aid and was outstanding in the winter and made it much safer to drive in snow/ice while being able to keep the rear ARB unlocked and not fish tailing.


This pretty much describes what I loved about the ECTEDs in the XJ - in 4FT, that thing had amazing traction and control regardless of the surface it was driving on just from having an LSD at each end. But it was built for different purposes to what I'm going for with the KJ.

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2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
245/75R16 BFG TA KO2s
OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
V6 Airbox


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 Post subject: Re: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:03 am 
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casm wrote:
But I'd much rather have an LSD in the rear in those same circumstances than a fully-open axle. Having driven both in the same weather, there are too many times where full lockup is too much and no lockup is too little.


I guess it's personal preference and driving skill.

I grew up in a area that regularly saw 220"+ snow and mostly had RWD cars,air shocks and 1200lbs of sand in the trunk was my traction aid growing up.


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 Post subject: Re: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:27 pm 
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The first mod to my 05 CRD sports was to add a rear ARB air locker, the second front ARB air locker. So far it is the best setup for my offroading adventures (no lift whatsoever, mud tires). On road snow, ice, or wet, shift intermediately to 4WH full time. Open differential on road dry only. Off course all season Wrangler snow flake rated tires. That combination works for me.

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 Post subject: Re: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:44 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
I guess it's personal preference and driving skill.


Pretty much. Either way works, and I'll happily admit that.

Quote:
I grew up in a area that regularly saw 220"+ snow and mostly had RWD cars,air shocks and 1200lbs of sand in the trunk was my traction aid growing up.


Didn't get anywhere near that much snow, but growing up driving in otherwise-similar circumstances used almost exactly the same approach for the RWD cars. For the FWD ones, the engine was the sand ;)

_________________
2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
245/75R16 BFG TA KO2s
OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
V6 Airbox


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 Post subject: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:24 pm 
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Sergio del Castillo wrote:
The first mod to my 05 CRD sports was to add a rear ARB air locker, the second front ARB air locker. So far it is the best setup for my offroading adventures (no lift whatsoever, mud tires). On road snow, ice, or wet, shift intermediately to 4WH full time. Open differential on road dry only. Off course all season Wrangler snow flake rated tires. That combination works for me.


This. The full-time 4wd option on the CRD kind negates the need for a rear LSD. If your just talking about driving around on snowy roads then full time handles most everything and you don’t worry about binding around corners.

If I was driving around on snow and had an arb I wouldn’t go for the arb first, I would go to full-time to spread the load to both axles. Then if it got real hairy I would go 4hi, then arb.


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 Post subject: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:34 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:52 pm 
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mass-hole wrote:
Sergio del Castillo wrote:
The first mod to my 05 CRD sports was to add a rear ARB air locker, the second front ARB air locker. So far it is the best setup for my offroading adventures (no lift whatsoever, mud tires). On road snow, ice, or wet, shift intermediately to 4WH full time. Open differential on road dry only. Off course all season Wrangler snow flake rated tires. That combination works for me.


This. The full-time 4wd option on the CRD kind negates the need for a rear LSD.

If your just talking about driving around in snow roads then full time handles most everything and you don’t worry about binding around corners.


Unless I'm misunderstanding the above replies, it appears as though there may be some misconceptions seeping into the thread regarding the intent of my question.

To clarify: my question isn't about driveline bind. Bear in mind that the last XJ I had was electrically-locked at each end, with the lockers acting as LSDs when not powered - and that XJ also ran the same NP242 transfer case (though modified) as the KJ. Trust me, I know what driveline bind feels like on this driveline; I've experienced it even in 4FT with the right switches flipped ;)

What I'm mostly interested in is what's on the market for the C8.25 to improve traction. Since there is no ECTED option for the C8.25, It looks like what's available basically boils down to an ARB, TrueTrac, Lunchbox/Aussie/Detroit locker, Trac-Lok, or spool.

Chances are that the rear will eventually end up with a TrueTrac in it based on how we're likely to use this one and my utter lack of desire to do a rear axle swap on it ;) It's just not going be used in ways that I can really justify a selectable (or automatic) locker for unless that locker also provides some extra grip when not at full grab.

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2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
245/75R16 BFG TA KO2s
OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
V6 Airbox


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 Post subject: Re: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:11 pm 
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casm wrote:
mass-hole wrote:
Sergio del Castillo wrote:
The first mod to my 05 CRD sports was to add a rear ARB air locker, the second front ARB air locker. So far it is the best setup for my offroading adventures (no lift whatsoever, mud tires). On road snow, ice, or wet, shift intermediately to 4WH full time. Open differential on road dry only. Off course all season Wrangler snow flake rated tires. That combination works for me.


This. The full-time 4wd option on the CRD kind negates the need for a rear LSD.

If your just talking about driving around in snow roads then full time handles most everything and you don’t worry about binding around corners.


Unless I'm misunderstanding the above replies, it appears as though there may be some misconceptions seeping into the thread regarding the intent of my question.

To clarify: my question isn't about driveline bind. Bear in mind that the last XJ I had was electrically-locked at each end, with the lockers acting as LSDs when not powered - and that XJ also ran the same NP242 transfer case (though modified) as the KJ. Trust me, I know what driveline bind feels like on this driveline; I've experienced it even in 4FT with the right switches flipped ;)

What I'm mostly interested in is what's on the market for the C8.25 to improve traction. Since there is no ECTED option for the C8.25, It looks like what's available basically boils down to an ARB, TrueTrac, Lunchbox/Aussie/Detroit locker, Trac-Lok, or spool.

Chances are that the rear will eventually end up with a TrueTrac in it based on how we're likely to use this one and my utter lack of desire to do a rear axle swap on it ;) It's just not going be used in ways that I can really justify a selectable (or automatic) locker for unless that locker also provides some extra grip when not at full grab.


No you are misunderstanding me. What I am trying to say is that the concerns about unsafe driving are semi irrelevant with a locker. If your simply driving to the grocery store on a snow day, your first move isn’t going to be to reach for the locker, it’s going to be to put it in full time 4wd. There has been very few on-road conditions that I’ve had where full time 4wd was not enough, even with the duratracs.

If you are in a really slick situation then you next move is gunna be 4hi. If 4hi isn’t enough, the locker. If you gotten this far then I suspect you are in a really tough situation and I don’t see how your driving in such a way that it becomes dangerous(not fast)

So sure if I could get a ECTED and have lsd and locker in one I would. But since we can only have either or, I don’t really see why you don’t just go rear locker.


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 Post subject: Re: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:35 pm 
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OK, I think I see where the confusion has come in. More:

mass-hole wrote:
No you are misunderstanding me. What I am trying to say is that the concerns about unsafe driving are semi irrelevant with a locker. If your simply driving to the grocery store on a snow day, your first move isn’t going to be to reach for the locker, it’s going to be to put it in full time 4wd. There has been very few on-road conditions that I’ve had where full time 4wd was not enough, even with the duratracs.


We're in agreement as far as that goes. More:

Quote:
If you are in a really slick situation then you next move is gunna be 4hi. If 4hi isn’t enough, the locker. If you gotten this far then I suspect you are in a really tough situation and I don’t see how your driving in such a way that it becomes dangerous(not fast)


Regarding the progression from 4FT to 4PT when the snow gets bad: we're on the same page. But my experience has been that regardless of which range you're in, being fully-locked on snow reduces controllability. Believe me, first decent snow we had after the ECTEDs went in, I had to go try it for myself to see what everyone was talking about. They were right.

Thing is, having driven both fully-open and limited-slip vehicles on snow, I prefer the LSD. Yeah, it can make them a little squirrelly at times depending on the conditions, but given the benefits in dry conditions, I can live with the trade-off.

Quote:
So sure if I could get a ECTED and have lsd and locker in one I would. But since we can only have either or, I don’t really see why you don’t just go rear locker.


It just comes down to how this KJ is going to be used. If it was being built with a bias towards trail use, I'd most likely be in the ARB camp, or looking into swapping to a D44 and running another ECTED. But that's not even a primary or secondary consideration for this one, so having something in there that's good enough for 99% of on-road and trail situations that it's likely to encounter should be acceptable. Basically, I'd just rather not sacrifice the milder improvement in general usage for the (much rarer) times where a bigger hammer is needed.

Admittedly, a lot of this is subjective, and I completely get that other folks have preferences that don't necessarily match mine. That's fine. But given what it looks like the realistic options are, the compromises I can make are kinda limited.

_________________
2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
245/75R16 BFG TA KO2s
OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
V6 Airbox


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 Post subject: Re: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:06 pm 
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casm wrote:
Regarding the progression from 4FT to 4PT when the snow gets bad: we're on the same page. But my experience has been that regardless of which range you're in, being fully-locked on snow reduces controllability. Believe me, first decent snow we had after the ECTEDs went in, I had to go try it for myself to see what everyone was talking about. They were right.


Gotcha. I've had Open, LSD, and Lockers as well. My experience in LSD's has always been that they act similar to a locker in really slick conditions, but they have always been in an AWD vehicle so it wasnt a huge deal. First was an AWD Astro van with G80, then a Trailblazer SS AWD with G80, then a Subaru Legacy Spec.B with a Torsen rear. My legacy was very tail happy.

My F150 has the factory e-locker and I really only use it when things get REALLY nasty.

casm wrote:
Thing is, having driven both fully-open and limited-slip vehicles on snow, I prefer the LSD. Yeah, it can make them a little squirrelly at times depending on the conditions, but given the benefits in dry conditions, I can live with the trade-off.


It just comes down to how this KJ is going to be used. If it was being built with a bias towards trail use, I'd most likely be in the ARB camp, or looking into swapping to a D44 and running another ECTED. But that's not even a primary or secondary consideration for this one, so having something in there that's good enough for 99% of on-road and trail situations that it's likely to encounter should be acceptable. Basically, I'd just rather not sacrifice the milder improvement in general usage for the (much rarer) times where a bigger hammer is needed.

Admittedly, a lot of this is subjective, and I completely get that other folks have preferences that don't necessarily match mine. That's fine. But given what it looks like the realistic options are, the compromises I can make are kinda limited.[/quote]

I gotcha here. I guess i didnt realize the intent. I thought you were looking at all types or traction aids. I agree that if your main purpose is road use and maybe mild off-roading then the LSD may be the way to go. The Trutrac is your only option here other then trying to fine the OEM traclok or whatever they call it.

Oh and I almost forgot, OX locker does also make a rear locker for the 8.25.

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 Post subject: Re: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:44 pm 
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mass-hole wrote:
Gotcha. I've had Open, LSD, and Lockers as well. My experience in LSD's has always been that they act similar to a locker in really slick conditions, but they have always been in an AWD vehicle so it wasnt a huge deal.


This is a pretty accurate description of how I've felt them behave in low-traction situations as well. Granted, that depends on the surface in question (sand is a lot different to snow to gravel to dirt, etc.), but a little judicious use of the throttle and/or handbrake can generally get you what you want ;)

mass-hole wrote:
First was an AWD Astro van with G80, then a Trailblazer SS AWD with G80, then a Subaru Legacy Spec.B with a Torsen rear. My legacy was very tail happy.


One of my Brats (I think it was the '86, but may have been the '85) had an LSD in the rear. That was interesting for a couple of reasons: one, they didn't come that way from the factory so a previous owner must have swapped it in from something else; two, the combination of no weight in the back when unloaded, FWD when in 2WD, and no centre diff meant that you could experience some interesting behaviour at times ;)

mass-hole wrote:
My F150 has the factory e-locker and I really only use it when things get REALLY nasty.


That pretty much sums up my ECTED experience. In all honesty, that XJ was unbelievably capable in 4FT with them unlocked and just acting as LSDs at each end; I almost never used 4PT after they went in. Even in 4LO it was rare to need full lockup, and I was pushing that thing through some fairly hairy desert and mountain wheeling at times.

mass-hole wrote:
casm wrote:
Thing is, having driven both fully-open and limited-slip vehicles on snow, I prefer the LSD. Yeah, it can make them a little squirrelly at times depending on the conditions, but given the benefits in dry conditions, I can live with the trade-off.

It just comes down to how this KJ is going to be used. If it was being built with a bias towards trail use, I'd most likely be in the ARB camp, or looking into swapping to a D44 and running another ECTED. But that's not even a primary or secondary consideration for this one, so having something in there that's good enough for 99% of on-road and trail situations that it's likely to encounter should be acceptable. Basically, I'd just rather not sacrifice the milder improvement in general usage for the (much rarer) times where a bigger hammer is needed.

Admittedly, a lot of this is subjective, and I completely get that other folks have preferences that don't necessarily match mine. That's fine. But given what it looks like the realistic options are, the compromises I can make are kinda limited.


I gotcha here. I guess i didnt realize the intent. I thought you were looking at all types or traction aids.


In all fairness, I don't think that I did a particularly good job of making the intended use clear. Saying, "for how this KJ is going to be used..." doesn't really give much of a picture of what that actually means unless I add some context to it, so I really should have been clearer from the outset on that :)

But, yeah, also getting a general overview of what's out there doesn't hurt. For all I know, there may be something I hadn't considered (which is very likely, given how long it's been since I looked into stuff like this for the C8.25).

mass-hole wrote:
I agree that if your main purpose is road use and maybe mild off-roading then the LSD may be the way to go. The Trutrac is your only option here other then trying to fine the OEM traclok or whatever they call it.


Based on experience with the Trac-Lok (one of which was in the XJ when I got it, and, strangely enough, still working as expected), it's not the route I want to go. Nothing really wrong with it in my opinion, but it's just not quite as aggressive as I'd like.

mass-hole wrote:
Oh and I almost forgot, OX locker does also make a rear locker for the 8.25.


Yep, ran across that one as well. Looks like a good alternative to the ARB.

_________________
2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
245/75R16 BFG TA KO2s
OME / Clevis 2.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
V6 Airbox


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 Post subject: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:02 am 
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Wait, why wouldn’t the ECTED work in the D30a? They even call out the Liberty on their site for the 30 27 spline version.

I got curious and started to read about them and there seems to be a LOT of negative reviews. People saying they have had them replaced 3,4, 5 times before eventually trading up for an ARB. Lots of people saying they would either get stuck locked or not lock at all. Any input from your XJ?


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 Post subject: Re: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:51 pm 
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mass-hole wrote:
Wait, why wouldn’t the ECTED work in the D30a? They even call out the Liberty on their site for the 30 27 spline version.


No concerns re: fitment, but running one in the aluminium case has me iffy on the idea. Probably fine, but...

Quote:
I got curious and started to read about them and there seems to be a LOT of negative reviews. People saying they have had them replaced 3,4, 5 times before eventually trading up for an ARB. Lots of people saying they would either get stuck locked or not lock at all. Any input from your XJ?


It's weird - I've read similar comments, and all I can really say is that I didn't have those issues. Granted, I don't know the circumstances in which other folks' lockers were being used, how much stress they were under, the state of their driveshafts, tyre size, etc., but in the XJ (D30 front, D44 rear, 4.10 gears, 31" tyres) they did fine in a variety of mostly desert and mountain wheeling.

One thing I will note: they can be a little sensitive to voltage. By this I mean that if they're not getting 12V, they probably won't lock up fully. I did some experiments with the rear wheels off the ground and a potentiometer in place of the switch, and found that they want full voltage to really grab, though they will start biting sooner (unfortunately, I don't remember what the lower voltage points were that would begin to happen at). Based on this, I can see where if someone has a vehicle with a current leak that's finding its way back to the locker, they may be having reluctant to little or no unlock.

That said, while I was very happy with them, rockcrawling wasn't on the menu - most of what I was doing was multi-day expedition-type travel where obstacles of varying difficulty tended to be something to get over on the way to the campsite as opposed to the objective of the trip. In the opposite situation, I'd probably go with a fully-mechanical locker of some flavour. That's not to say that mechanical lockers can't have their own failure modes, but rather that those circumstances might be beyond what the clutches in the ECTED are up to handling for extended periods of time.

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 Post subject: Re: C8.25 Traction Aids
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:35 pm 
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casm wrote:

Doing an axle swap on this vehicle is not feasible. Given how it's going to be used, it simply can't be justified.


What's not feasible exactly? The right $100-250 axle (8.8, D44, etc) would let you run the ECTED you want. That said, really depends on your skills, tools, patience, and what sort of used parts you can dig up locally. What's nice if you can pre-build it, and then just have it off the road for only a day or two to exchange diffs.

I keep staring at my extra D44a (WJ) and leftover D44 & D60 housings to see if I could recycle them into a cool KJ diff. :juggle:

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