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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:28 pm 
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Thanks everyone for the participation and kudos.

layback40: The noises I'm down to now do not threaten the operation of the Jeep, so now I can take my time. A set of 3 motor/transmission mounts is ~$200 so I may as well wait for a sale.

vwroad87: The rear end is quite loud so I'll probably take care of that next. I have not opened the rear end yet so I don't know if I already have a limited slip differential (LSD). My pocket book is still bruised from all this restoration so I'll just stay on the straight and narrow for now. A LSD upgrade sounds like a good idea later.

snowballs: I am glad that others have learned about our CRDs along with me. This forum is fortunate to have a few/many highly experienced mechanics and CRD specialists who add to everyone's experience.

Dean.

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2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:10 am 
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Changed the alternator today. Apparently it was damaged by the non-connected ground. Maybe also in conjunction with attempting to let the alternator charge a severely run down battery. Anyway, the alternator was running very hot from a internal short.

Dean.

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2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:32 pm 
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230 miles so far trouble free. However I am curious about the radiator fan operation.

Upon getting the vehicle back together, the fan ran at high speed continuously. I pulled the fan fuse (F2, 20A) and continued to drive. Finally checked the wiring with an ohm meter and found no shorts. The computer is commanding both high and low speeds to operate. With the engine off, the "sink to ground" for the fans goes to high resistance. So, the wiring is good and the computer is telling the fan to run at high speed.

I finally put the fuse back in and removed only the Radiator Fan High relay.

Is there something I'm missing? How long is the fan supposed to run at high speed? ...and how long at low speed? Is it supposed to run at high speed at start up? When should it change to low speed? When should it turn off? Is there a patch I should program into the computer?

Dean.

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2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:34 am 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
Mine confused me to the point I just ignore it and let it do what it wants to do as long as it doesn't overheat. (hasn't yet)

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:33 pm 
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On my 05 when I first start the engine with the AC off and ambient temperature not real high, the cooling fan does not run at all.

What I understand on the cooling fan operation on the 05;
have not researched the 06's so don't know if there are any differences as to how it is controlled and / or operated on them. I suspect they are the same.
Please note: without a logic diagram for the ECM some of the operations may be speculative.

Items that could possibly produce LOW speed.
Engine coolant temperature
transmission fluid temperature?
high ambient temperature?

Items that could possibly produce HIGH speed.
Air Conditioning System fluid pressure sensor
Engine coolant temperature
transmission fluid temperature?
high ambient temperature?

We know the AC in operation is supposed to engage the fan on high and high coolant temperature will also engage the fan on high.
But there may be some other items that the ECM is looking at to control cooling fan operation and / or speeds. Without a logic diagram it's impossible to say for sure! :banghead:

Note: The AC pressure switch signal goes straight to the front module and then to the ECM via the data link. The engine coolant temperature sensor signal goes directly to the ECM.
The ECM controls ALL operations of the electric cooling fan based on input from the various sensors.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:46 pm 
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Thanks GordnadoCRD and WWDiesel,

The AC pressure sensor does spike my interest. So far I have not recharged the AC system after having the tubing opened up for engine removal and installation. I should do that just for a test.

I also have not deleted the EGR system from the ECM yet either. Don't know whether that will make a difference or not.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:50 am 
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Browsing the Service Manual, I found this troubleshooting topic of the engine cooling fan.

Image

In the Correction column, item #2 reads "Refer to fan speed operation table". I did not find that table in the Service Manual. Has anyone seen it someplace else?

Also found this description of the fan operation at chapter 7-36.

Image

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


Top
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:39 pm 
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CaptainDean wrote:
Browsing the Service Manual, I found this troubleshooting topic of the engine cooling fan.
Image
In the Correction column, item #2 reads "Refer to fan speed operation table". I did not find that table in the Service Manual. Has anyone seen it someplace else?
Also found this description of the fan operation at chapter 7-36.
Image
Dean.

When I replaced my battery tray with the Sasquatch Tray, I don't believe my Jeep had a battery temperature sensor. So some may not have that sensor as described? :?

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05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
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No FCV/EGR
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Flowmaster/NO CAT
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98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:26 am 
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Finally made it to 500 miles of near trouble free driving. I consider the engine minimally broken in now.

Today the serpentine fan belt came off. Drove around on battery power long enough to get a new belt and drive home to put it on.

About a week ago the anti-skid braking system started illuminating two lights. Have not looked into it yet -- I may find a blown fuse. Maybe I'll find another disconnected ground. In order to pass the safety check I had to put on new parking brake shoes. Also installed new rear pads while I was in there. Bled the brakes as well.

Is there a patch to remove the Anti-Skip braking system from [I'm guessing] the body control unit? I'd like to take that entire unit out from under the hood.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


Top
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:20 am 
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Dug into the rear end today. It has been howling and I cannot stand it any longer. Got an estimate for $1900 to have my favorite shop set it up -- thought I'd take a stab at it first.

Image

I have watched a few YouTube videos so I got some good information before starting. Two about setting up the rear end, one about a complete rebuild after a bearing failure. My first test was pulling on each axle to see the lateral free play. Notice I could pull one axle out, then pull the other side, then pull the first one again and it moved about 1/8 inch. Woes started building as I knew I was pulling the innards around.

Image
The ink marks show the side play between the loose bearings. The gear is the one that drives the anti skid rear wheel speed sensor.

I will add to this in the morning...

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


Top
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:47 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:06 pm
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Location: Captain Cook, Hawaii
Want to borrow my dial indicator? I'm currently scheduled to be working in Holualoa on Monday or my wife works across from Teshimas Monday thru Friday. Having that helped me nail down the backlash on my rear end.

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2005 Liberty Sport CRD
Cleaned MAP sensor, ORM, ELM327 Bluetooth OBDII reader with Torque Pro, USA Spec PA-11CHR iPod adapter (used Aux input for Pandora!)
Awaiting install: EVIC, air cleaner hose, and Saikou Michi Catch Can (like a Provent)

Did you hear about the guy who was hooked on brake fluid?
He swears he can stop any time.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:32 am 
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Location: Australia
Are you saying you have that much play in the carrier bearings?
i think you need to have a close look at the crown wheel & pinion to see the ware pattern.
The big problem is that even if you replace the carrier bearings ( if you have that much play its likely they are no good) you may find that uneven ware on the C & P will generate noise.
Would be worth looking to see if that donor has a good diff.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:31 am 
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CaptainDean wrote:
Dug into the rear end today. It has been howling and I cannot stand it any longer. Got an estimate for $1900 to have my favorite shop set it up -- thought I'd take a stab at it first.
I have watched a few YouTube videos so I got some good information before starting. Two about setting up the rear end, one about a complete rebuild after a bearing failure. My first test was pulling on each axle to see the lateral free play. Notice I could pull one axle out, then pull the other side, then pull the first one again and it moved about 1/8 inch. Woes started building as I knew I was pulling the innards around.
The ink marks show the side play between the loose bearings. The gear is the one that drives the anti skid rear wheel speed sensor.

Dean, there should be NO side to side movement of the carrier between the two outer bearings. When setting up a rear end, those bearings are actually preloaded slightly so there will be no movement allowed by the carrier side to side as they totally control backlash.
If the carrier is moving around that much between the carrier bearings then your backlash is totally out of control and yes it would be making all kinds of noise. :banghead:
Backlash should normally be between 0.003-0.006.
And yes, a good dial indicator with mount is a must to properly set up a rear end....

Image

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05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
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Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
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SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:11 pm 
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Location: Shelton, WA
What WWDiesel said.

Did you find any metal in the bottom? That is a hell of a lot of movement, I just rebuilt my rear end because of worn carrier bearings and they had 0 movement side to side. As WWDiesel said the preload on the cups is usually 50-75ftlb WHILE maintaining proper backlash between the R&P gears. Inspect the R&P gears very closely, they may have some damage that is not worth rebuilding. If you see areas on the ring gear that look like hard shinny fish scales then you have damaged the ring gear BCM :(

(beyond the capabilities of maintenance)

More pictures of the ring gear teeth please.

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Purchased 2006 LIberty CRD 82K 01/16
SS Cat Back Exhaust, Full EGR Delete,Provent, Michelin 245/70 R16 AT/2
Stock Tune, Serpentine Belt Service,160 Amp Alternator
10/17 96K, New Head, Injectors, ARP Studs, HDS T-Stat
04/18 99K, New Reman Trans
09/18 104K, Lift Pump
01/19 106K, OME Lift, Eaton TruTrac LSD in new rebuilt diff


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:55 pm 
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Sounds like a job for Detroit Tru Trac....

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

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Provent @ 43,000 km
SEGR in progress
SAMCO Sport hoses @ 48500 km
Goodyear Wrangler Duratrac LT225/75R16


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:03 pm 
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CaptainDean wrote:
Dug into the rear end today. It has been howling and I cannot stand it any longer. Got an estimate for $1900 to have my favorite shop set it up -- thought I'd take a stab at it first.

Image

I have watched a few YouTube videos so I got some good information before starting. Two about setting up the rear end, one about a complete rebuild after a bearing failure. My first test was pulling on each axle to see the lateral free play. Notice I could pull one axle out, then pull the other side, then pull the first one again and it moved about 1/8 inch. Woes started building as I knew I was pulling the innards around.

Image
The ink marks show the side play between the loose bearings. The gear is the one that drives the anti skid rear wheel speed sensor.

I will add to this in the morning...

Got interrupted last night while posting this message, now I'll complete it...

Set up the dial indicator and measured 0.090" of slop on the carrier gear. One of the YouTube videos showed a lot more slop and they found pieces of the carrier bearings in the bottom.
Image
There were no chunks of metal in the bottom so this one is still in usable condition. Only some fine metal particles. Cleaned out the pumpkin area and continued on for now. It feels like there is a magnet in the bottom of the pumpkin case.

Made a carrier bearing adjustment tool by assembling a 36mm nut and an old 1/2" drive socket. Initially I just used epoxy to put them together but the epoxy slipped with about 2 ft/lbs torque. Drilled the nut and socket to put a pin through it but I broke a couple drills getting through the case hardened socket. For now, I ended up with a nail through the hole just to get through today. The nail is bent over so it won't fall out in the axle tube. I'm sure I'll have to dig back in here again to set it up correctly.
Image

When I do finish installing the pin I'll use this bolt and a drill 1-size smaller to get a press fit.
Image
This tool worked fine today but I'll finish it later and re-do this job.

With no more lateral movement in the carrier, could then set up for the backlash. Had to loosen the drivers-side and tighten the passenger-side carrier bearings until I got the backlash to 0.006" movement.
Image
Afterward I tightened the passenger-side carrier bearing to a few pounds torque by feel with a ratchet. The videos said to tighten the pinion shaft bearings to get 20-inch pounds when turning the shaft with an inch-pound torque wrench. Then you put the carrier assembly in and adjust the carrier bearings for backlash first, then for an additional 10-inch pounds torque while turning the pinion shaft that is also driving the carrier.

Today I did not mess with the pinion shaft so I just roughed-it-in. I'm sure this will be much better than before, although not completely correct. I'll get back into this later. None of the seals (pinion, wheel bearing) are leaking so I'm not in distress yet. Next time I will get the gear paint to check the mating of the pinion gear to ring gear alignment.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:31 pm 
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I used diaper cream and then ultimately I think, just grease on clean gears to mark the alignment. I cleaned both very well before I was done. Also, I used a pair of "cotter pin extractors" to adjust the carrier bearings. Pull one, push the other, etc. Worked great for me.

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2005 Liberty Sport CRD
Cleaned MAP sensor, ORM, ELM327 Bluetooth OBDII reader with Torque Pro, USA Spec PA-11CHR iPod adapter (used Aux input for Pandora!)
Awaiting install: EVIC, air cleaner hose, and Saikou Michi Catch Can (like a Provent)

Did you hear about the guy who was hooked on brake fluid?
He swears he can stop any time.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:13 pm 
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Dean, with that much slop, I would pull the whole carrier out and inspect the carrier bearings and races for wear.
Just to be safe; they are right in front of you.
That is an awful lot of play and something had to wear a lot to create that much clearance....

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Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount

98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:25 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Dean, with that much slop, I would pull the whole carrier out and inspect the carrier bearings and races for wear.
Just to be safe; they are right in front of you.
That is an awful lot of play and something had to wear a lot to create that much clearance....



What WWDiesel said!!! Mine was howling and was in spec for backlash... The carrier bearing where shot, no metal, no slop, good R&P gears. I rebuilt everything. Pinion bearing, carrier bearing....

If you do replace all the bearings (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED) use one of these crush sleeve from Ratech.

http://www.ratechmfg.com/smart%20sleeve.htm

Be careful because they crush easily with about 100 ft/lbs instead of 300. You will get all the help you need to be successful on this list.

_________________
Purchased 2006 LIberty CRD 82K 01/16
SS Cat Back Exhaust, Full EGR Delete,Provent, Michelin 245/70 R16 AT/2
Stock Tune, Serpentine Belt Service,160 Amp Alternator
10/17 96K, New Head, Injectors, ARP Studs, HDS T-Stat
04/18 99K, New Reman Trans
09/18 104K, Lift Pump
01/19 106K, OME Lift, Eaton TruTrac LSD in new rebuilt diff


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:28 am 
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Finished the rear end setup and added fresh gear oil. What a difference this made !! It used to sound like an old bread truck I used to hear whining and clunking down the street.

It's not a completely silent rear end, but it's 99% better than before. There is a slight noise coming from the R&P gears but you have to listen for it to hear it. In another year I should be finished with front motor mounts in the Liberty, roof on the house, and planter boxes for the wife. Then I can get back to replacing the Ring & Pinion gears and bearings after that.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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