Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

layback40 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:50 am

CaptainDean wrote:

GordnadoCRD wrote:

Sorry, Dean. Didn't mean to hijack your thread here.

CaptainDean wrote:

Hijacks happen, no worry. These detours are good when they are short or rather short.

Detours? Detours? I just realized this entire thread is a detour. The original post is "Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking" and it turned into an engine overhaul thread. :dizzy:

With the Jeep back on the road, I still have the clinking and clanking. I have decided it is a worn out transfer case. The gears have such slop they clink and clank while idling. I took the front driveshaft off and the noise reduced by half by not rattling the front pinion and ring gear set and axle splines.

Here is my next question...

How do I determine if another used transfer case is better or worse than the one in the vehicle before I swap them?

Dean.

If I am correct, the drive to the front is via a chain drive in the transfer box. One indicator would be to have it in high 4 & see how much slop you have. The main ware would be in the drive chain.
I hope others can tell me if I am right or wrong.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

66.1 miles on the rebuilt engine. It should be 66.6 because I had to get towed home again. Not a fuel filter this time; the transmission failed. It started making really loud rattling sound, then stopped pushing the vehicle completely. :grim:

Called the local transmission shop and he gave me a clue: When you install a new transmission in a vehicle one needs to perform a "quick learn" through the diagnostic plug. If you don't it will ruin the transmission. ...Apparently the same is true when the vehicle and transmission have been powered down for a year. This must be a function of the Powertrain Control Module. :banghead:

The result is the forward pump stops making hydraulic pressure and the torque converter runs dry. This happens even when there is plenty of transmission fluid in it. Chrysler and friends certainly did not program a 'fail safe' Powertrain Control Module. :furious:

So, the beast in back in the driveway under the tarp-covered pole-garage.

Fortunately, I still have the transmission from the 2006 Liberty from the other side of the island. Tonight I will bathe my woes in a few beers and start a new process this weekend. :5SHOTS:

Ready for a new detour? I'll start by doing the Quick Learn process and see what happens, but I think it's too late already. :dead:

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:28 am

CaptainDean wrote:

66.1 miles on the rebuilt engine. It should be 66.6 because I had to get towed home again. Not a fuel filter this time; the transmission failed. It started making really loud rattling sound, then stopped pushing the vehicle completely. :grim:

Called the local transmission shop and he gave me a clue: When you install a new transmission in a vehicle one needs to perform a "quick learn" through the diagnostic plug. If you don't it will ruin the transmission. ...Apparently the same is true when the vehicle and transmission have been powered down for a year. This must be a function of the Powertrain Control Module. :banghead:

The result is the forward pump stops making hydraulic pressure and the torque converter runs dry. This happens even when there is plenty of transmission fluid in it. Chrysler and friends certainly did not program a 'fail safe' Powertrain Control Module. :furious:

So, the beast in back in the driveway under the tarp-covered pole-garage.

Fortunately, I still have the transmission from the 2006 Liberty from the other side of the island. Tonight I will bathe my woes in a few beers and start a new process this weekend. :5SHOTS:

Ready for a new detour? I'll start by doing the Quick Learn process and see what happens, but I think it's too late already. :dead:

Dean.

I think you need a DBR11 system to do the relearn. If I am wrong, please someone tell us.
We all have our fingers crossed that when you fix the software problem all will be right !

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:07 am

I know that the Snap-On scanners can trigger the trans re-learn function. I suspect that most other high-end professional grade scanners can, as well as DRBIII and StarScan.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

YouTube University had a video about doing a Quick Learn on a Chrysler automatic transmission. I'll have to research finding this OBDII connection module that connects with your phone. The one used in the video is the Launch IcarScan and an app called EZ Diag that connects the smart phone with the OBDII module. The price range of this scanner is from $185 to $248 plus tax and shipping.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB5rCwX9vRs

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

Talked with a trustworthy mechanic today. I've taken the company vehicles to several mechanic over the past 5 years and this guy is the best. Our company vehicles never have to go back to finish up a repair. He was a race car mechanic and opened his own shop. He researches things when he is not already knowledgeable about them. I trust him.

He confirmed that the Quick Learn routine calibrates the transmission to issue an exact amount of fluid to shift each gear and compensates for temperature changes. Transmission fluid expands as it warms, enough to make a difference in transmission performance. The instructions say to drive the vehicle into all gears including overdrive, then come back and perform the Quick Learn as this drives all the bubbles out of every shift passageway. He suggests I go to the Jeep dealer for the Quick Learn. It's only 200 meters from my house and all downhill !!

This weekend, I plan to put the Jeep on jack stands and pull the pan. I suspect I'll find chunks of Apollo 9 space junk. Then I'll check out the other transmission and try to determine if it is usable. I would be ecstatic if I only needed to replace a front pump.

Dean.

vwroad87 · **Posted:** Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:40 am

My Snap-On Solus Ultra does this function. It takes all of 30 seconds. All quick learn does is measure the volume of the clutch packs and corrects the shifts for volume/temperature profiles. The only part of the TC/pump that is electric in nature is the lockup for the torque converter controlled by the solenoid pack and TCM. More than likely you starved a clutch pack of fluid and burned the clutches, that debris went to bad places and you heard the results. Personally I can't see now the non volatile memory (eprom...) in the TCM would loose those settings? Anyway I wish you and your jeep a quick return the the road!

Aside: I bought the solus scanner for 1000 used on eBay rather than pay the tow to the dealership and a 250 charge for the QL after I swapped my transmission for a "built" one. It's a really nice scanner with live data and functional tests for the engine and transmission i.e. test injectors, engage 2nd gear clutch pack... Plus I use it on all my other cars now. But it does not code keys. :banghead:

layback40 · **Posted:** Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:23 am

I did a fluid change on my new purchase today. Was going to change out the filter but was supplied the wrong one. Turns out the trans in mine is the one with the second filter inside. Looks like a spin on oil filter. So it only got a fluid change. The handbook suggested 4.7 liters of fluid. I put 6.5 in to get it up to the mark when warm.
Good luck with your opening up Dean. I found it easiest to undo all the bolts down the right side & then work back towards the left. This allowed the fluid to initially run out the right side. Loosening the bolts on the left allowed the pan to tip further so a lot of the fluid was drained before man handling the pan out. Its not nice trying to lift away a pan 1/2 full of hot fluid.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

vwroad87, layback40,

Thanks for the advise and information. Fortunately my Jeep is already cool so I won't have to do the horizontal dance under a hot pan of fluid. Dumping the majority of the fluid out the right side is one more decision I will not have to make.

Regarding the $1000 Snap-On Solus Ultra scanner, I did notice it was one of the best handheld scanners around. Snap-On tends to offer excellent tools. However a bit steep for me. I'm looking at the Launch IcarScan for $185 and the EZ Diag smart phone app for $200 activation and unlimited updates.

Does anyone see other choices for less? Anyone want to share their downloaded app for Android, iPhone or Windows laptop?

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

I have acquired the files from the MPPS V13.02 CD and put them in a folder in Dropbox. Here is a link to that folder...

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/j2hj5z74bqgz ... Rjn2a?dl=0

Someone please visit that link and confirm you can download the driver and setup files. This should be edited into the first page of the DIY ECU Flash topic.

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:11 pm

Dean,
Both the .exe and the .zip worked just fine for me. I was able to download both files and unzip the zip file.
As a precaution, I also scanned both files for viruses and malware before opening either one; both files passed with no issues found. :wink:

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

WWDiesel wrote:

Dean,
Both the .exe and the .zip worked just fine for me. I was able to download both files and unzip the zip file.
As a precaution, I also scanned both files for viruses and malware before opening either one; both files passed with no issues found. :wink:

Thanks for confirming that you were able to find and download those files. I'm glad they did not contain any viruses.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

Removed the transmission pan today and collected the oil (Yuck !!). There was clutch material (brown) in the pan but not as much as I was expecting. Transmissions must be really good as food processors or juicing machines.

Filter cut open

The transmission fluid was as black as mud. It used to be barely visible on the dip stick. It was difficult to tell it was at the correct level.

I'm not well versed on how much steel should be expected on the magnet in 90,000 miles.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:58 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

Removed the transmission pan today and collected the oil (Yuck !!). There was clutch material (brown) in the pan but not as much as I was expecting. Transmissions must be really good as food processors or juicing machines.

The transmission fluid was as black as mud. It used to be barely visible on the dip stick. It was difficult to tell it was at the correct level.

I'm not well versed on how much steel should be expected on the magnet in 90,000 miles.

Dean.

Magnet is not too bad. I assume its never been out before.
The fluid looks bad.
Will be surprised if the trans isnt toasted. You may want to cut open the 2 filters & see what you find.
Given to fluid condition, I would have expected the trans had been on the way out for some time.
Hope your spare trans is better! I have rebuilt 2 autos in years gone by. Much easier to replace with a good second hand one, normally cheaper.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:56 pm

Not good Dean!
Black ATF is a big visual indicator of transmission fluid was very overheated which gives it the burnt black color.
If your transmission survives this, it will be a miracle.
More than likely, the clutches and bands in your tranny are toast. :grim:

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

layback40, WWDiesel,

Thanks for the honest feedback. For a few fleeting moments I had wishful thinking that I might put it all back together and see how it runs; but alas, I will try the other transmission first.

I have no idea of the other transmission's condition, however the other engine is toast. I have not opened it up, but while turning the other engine over with the crank bolt I can hear scraping sounds. The last owner clearly did not take good care of his vehicle. If I am lucky, the other transmission will need a service at the very least.

More later...

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:06 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

layback40, WWDiesel,
Thanks for the honest feedback. For a few fleeting moments I had wishful thinking that I might put it all back together and see how it runs; but alas, I will try the other transmission first.
I have no idea of the other transmission's condition, however the other engine is toast. I have not opened it up, but while turning the other engine over with the crank bolt I can hear scraping sounds. The last owner clearly did not take good care of his vehicle. If I am lucky, the other transmission will need a service at the very least.
More later...
Dean.

Best of luck on the other transmission Dean; you are past due some..... :juggle:

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

CaptainDean wrote:

YouTube University had a video about doing a Quick Learn on a Chrysler automatic transmission. I'll have to research finding this OBDII connection module that connects with your smart phone. The one used in the video is the Launch IcarScan and an app called EZ Diag that connects the smart phone with the OBDII module. The price range of this scanner is from $185 to $248 plus tax and shipping. The EZ Diag app is downloadable for free then cost $200 to activate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB5rCwX9vRs

Dean.

Researched the IcarScan and found the $185 model does not have a needed adapter, the $248 model does and includes 10 free software, including EZ Diag and apparently free activation. Of all on Amazon, one was a Prime item. I ordered it today, should be here by Jan 7.

IcarScan module with adapter. $248.

IcarScan module without adapter. $185.

Dean.

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:42 pm

Dean. Did you read the reviews on that adapter and software? There were a lot of poor reviews of the product and tech support. Based on the Liberty CRD's already cobbled computer system from the factory, I would have my doubts about this working for so cheap.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

WolverineFW wrote:

Dean. Did you read the reviews on that adapter and software? There were a lot of poor reviews of the product and tech support. Based on the Liberty CRD's already cobbled computer system from the factory, I would have my doubts about this working for so cheap.

Took my chances but hedged my bet by ordering via Amazon Prime. They are very liberal about returns. If this does not perform the Quick Learn then I can still send it back.

Taking a break. Have 1 more bolt to remove before the transmission comes out. Found all four bolts sheared off from flex plate to torque converter. That is a good reason for the intense noises and the final and sudden no drive. Last bolt is the top right-side (where the transmission dipstick is attached). I'll have to get it out from the top with a combination wrench and a quart of Bourbon.

Dean.

Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

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