Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:38 am

CaptainDean wrote:

Finally got the beast back on the road again. 0.5 miles on the counter. There is still the same clinking and clanging sound that started this entire thread. I'm starting to wonder if it's in the transmission, although I cannot imagine what it could be. The transmission runs fine and shifts smoothly. The front drive shaft is removed and the transfer case is the one from the 2006 Jeep. The torque converter is from the 2006 as well. Soon as I raise the RPM above idle it goes away.
Any comments?
GordnadoCRD: Did you ever find a cause of torque converter bolts shearing off in the trucks you worked on ? I'm just curious.

Hey Gordon, A few years back I chased a rattling noise that only was noticeable at IDLE. Soon as engine RPM's were raised above idle speed, noise would disappear.
I changed alternator pulley and tensioner pulley for serpentine belt all to no avail.
Ended up being the left hand motor mount! Once I got it off, I could shake it in my hand and it sounded like a bunch of loose bolts rattling around in a coffee can..... :shock:

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

WWDiesel wrote:

CaptainDean wrote:

Soon as I raise the RPM above idle it goes away. Any comments?

Hey Gordon, A few years back I chased a rattling noise that only was noticeable at IDLE. Soon as engine RPM's were raised above idle speed, noise would disappear. I changed alternator pulley and tensioner pulley for serpentine belt all to no avail. Ended up being the left hand motor mount! Once I got it off, I could shake it in my hand and it sounded like a bunch of loose bolts rattling around in a coffee can..... :shock:

Thanks WWDiesel,

Both my motor mounts are solid. The sounds seems to come from under the vehicle, such as the transmission.

I can only imagine that one or more sets of planetary gears are worn out. My plan is to have the *other* transmission overhauled then swap them.

Dean.

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:45 pm

What does Solid mean? There have been numerous weird rattles fixed by members here over the years by replacing motor mounts.

I believe many of these mounts showed no obvious signs of failure. They are not known for their longevity on this vehicle. If they are original, I would change them.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

JieselDeep · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:54 pm

I've got a set of motor mounts if you wanted to try that. I can't remember if I mentioned this earlier, but have you checked the harmonic dampener? It's on the crankshaft pulley and consists of a metal doughnut attached to the crank pulley with a rubber layer. The rubber slowly wears out and eventually lets loose.

It was near impossible to track down the sound on my jeep, but once I fished my hand up there and poked at it, it made that ringing jingling noise. I'll have to come by someday when you're working on the jeep and show off my new jeep. I'm trying to swap suspensions today between my jeeps...Wish me luck!

Jon

layback40 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:58 pm

With regard to the planetary theory, is the noise there all the time? At Idle in gear gearbox components are not doing much, the TC is allowing the engine to idle by its slip. If you have the trans in neutral, there is movement in the trans. Does the jeep need to be moving for the noise? If in 4wd is the noise there?
Could the noise be some linkage with a loose bush. My XJ had a horrid noise when turning at certain speeds, turned out to be the handbrake cable rubbing on one of the tail shafts. A zip tie fixed it.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:14 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

Finally got the beast back on the road again. 0.5 miles on the counter. There is still the same clinking and clanging sound that started this entire thread. I'm starting to wonder if it's in the transmission, although I cannot imagine what it could be. The transmission runs fine and shifts smoothly. The front drive shaft is removed and the transfer case is the one from the 2006 Jeep. The torque converter is from the 2006 as well. Soon as I raise the RPM above idle it goes away.

Any comments?

GordnadoCRD: Did you ever find a cause of torque converter bolts shearing off in the trucks you worked on ? I'm just curious.

The engines were going through rear main seals, and the person I replaced was re-using the old tc bolts and no threadlocker. They would come loose a little and the crank vibrations would hammer the bolt heads off just like with an air hammer and chisel.

JieselDeep, layback40, and WWDiesel have outlined the things I would work through first. If I didn't find anything there, I would check to make sure that the Trans full tube and the exhaust pipe were completely clear, and not contacting any of the steel thermal shields they pass by. You may have to block it up and crawl underneath when it's idling, to get a bearing on where it's happening. Also check to make sure none of the skid plate bolts are loose and nothing is contacting them when it's idling.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Thanks guys for the suggestions. I've been rebuilding a toilet today so my only chances for diagnosis were trips to Lowe's.

It rattles at idle in neutral, it rattles in drive at idle at a stop and creeping forward & reverse, it rattles in 4WD in all the same conditions. Soon as I add a couple hundred RPM the rattles stop. Same at a stop in drive pressing the brake.

Regarding the torque converter in drive at a stop. [Enter, my imaginary replica of the drive train in my mind] True it does slip but it still tries to push the vehicle, so I assume there is some drive capacity being pushed into the transmission. First connection is the front oil pump, then the front clutches, then the planetary gears. The planetary gear sets are the first hard parts. [To date, I have not learned that my imagination is often wrong.]

Starting from the front.
The harmonic balancer is new, I changed it with the timing belt when I first started chasing this rattle. The old one was worn out.
Engine mounts feel really good. I did not change them because they seem solid in my hands. I will check them tomorrow when I come home with a new noise stethoscope, or a Sphygmomanometer for vehicles.
Skid plate bolts are tight. I just put those back in.
Under the body cables are another good lead. I'll check that as well.
I'll check the transmission fill tube, but it seemed clear of everything.
I'll check the exhaust pipe. When I bought the vehicle the rear stabilizer bars had recently been changed and one bolt was clanking on the exhaust pipe. Cut off the excess length of that bolt.

Thanks for the leads and stories.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

JieselDeep wrote:

I'll have to come by someday when you're working on the jeep and show off my new jeep. I'm trying to swap suspensions today between my jeeps...Wish me luck! Jon

Yes, come by sometime, I'd like to see your new ride. If nothing else, I'd like to compare mine to a CRD in good shape.

Dean.

JieselDeep · **Posted:** Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:57 am

How about the heat shield on the motor mount? (Right side, I think) Could that be loose or tweaked such that it's making contact when vibrated a certain way? Anything else that could have been bumped while pulling/reinstalling engine and transmission?

Just spitballing ideas here, but they might be worth a check.

You and I were typing at the same time and it suggested I read the post that was added while I was typing, before I submitted my own post.

I got the lift halfway transferred. Rear is moved across and needs to be snugged with weight on it, I still need to reinstall stock suspension on the old jeep. I didn't account for the doubling (or more) of time required due to having to remove parts from the other jeep rather than pulling them from a box...and then having to reinstall the stock parts so that I could have my jackstand back. Might be time to buy another set of jackstands or find that beam I've been meaning to chop into blocks for jobs like this!

I could always bring the old jeep first to make you feel better about your current project if that would help. ;P

Thanks,
Jon

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:43 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

Thanks guys for the suggestions. I've been rebuilding a toilet today so my only chances for diagnosis were trips to Lowe's.
It rattles at idle in neutral, it rattles in drive at idle at a stop and creeping forward & reverse, it rattles in 4WD in all the same conditions. Soon as I add a couple hundred RPM the rattles stop. Same at a stop in drive pressing the brake.
Regarding the torque converter in drive at a stop. [Enter, my imaginary replica of the drive train in my mind] True it does slip but it still tries to push the vehicle, so I assume there is some drive capacity being pushed into the transmission. First connection is the front oil pump, then the front clutches, then the planetary gears. The planetary gear sets are the first hard parts. [To date, I have not learned that my imagination is often wrong.]
Starting from the front.
The harmonic balancer is new, I changed it with the timing belt when I first started chasing this rattle. The old one was worn out.
Engine mounts feel really good. I did not change them because they seem solid in my hands. I will check them tomorrow when I come home with a new noise stethoscope, or a Sphygmomanometer for vehicles.
Skid plate bolts are tight. I just put those back in.
Under the body cables are another good lead. I'll check that as well.
I'll check the transmission fill tube, but it seemed clear of everything.
I'll check the exhaust pipe. When I bought the vehicle the rear stabilizer bars had recently been changed and one bolt was clanking on the exhaust pipe. Cut off the excess length of that bolt.
Thanks for the leads and stories.
Dean.

FYI: When I replaced my engine mounts @ 138k, the old ones I removed felt and looked solid in my hands. There was no slop or movement that I could see or feel. But when I shook one of them vigorously in my hand, it admitted a very pronounced rattling sound. Apparently there is some internal hydraulic mechanisms within the mount that goes bad with age and / or time and causes the internal rattling. :shock:

layback40 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:34 pm

WWDiesel wrote:

Engine mounts feel really good. I did not change them because they seem solid in my hands. I will check them tomorrow when I come home with a new noise stethoscope, or a Sphygmomanometer for vehicles.
.

FYI: When I replaced my engine mounts @ 138k, the old ones I removed felt and looked solid in my hands. There was no slop or movement that I could see or feel. But when I shook one of them vigorously in my hand, it admitted a very pronounced rattling sound. Apparently there is some internal hydraulic mechanisms within the mount that goes bad with age and / or time and causes the internal rattling. :shock:

These mounts are of the type that Mercedes Benz started using about the mid 1980's in their diesel cars (w124 300D OM60x & newer) to improve vibration & noise. They have a pocket in them full of fluid. In time the fluid escapes through the rubber ~ permeates, once dry they start to fail internally. They can start to rattle when not loaded too heavy.
If the rattle is there when in neutral & idle but goes away when in gear (loaded), it is a possible cause as an alternate to an issue in the input end of the trans.
I have always found that a long heavy duty screwdriver is as good as a stethoscope, if you try another one, it gives you a second opinion! :ROTFL:

My XJ diesel once had a vibration/noise that turned out to be the counter weight where the output drive shaft is ~ loose bolts. Given Deans meticulous nature evident by this thread, it is hard to imagine a loose bolt causing the problem.

A series of diagnostic tests like :

Is the noise there when cold & hot?
Is it there when stationary & moving?
In gear , in neutral?
What happens if it is shifted into reverse?
Handbrake on/off?
Foot on brake/foot off?
Electrical system loaded (lights etc on/off)?
Turning the steering wheel each way have any effect?
In-gauging 4WD have any effect? In neutral between high & low allows the trans to be running right through.
With answers to all these questions we may all be in a better position to make good suggestions.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

My priorities changed this afternoon on the way home from work. The Jeep died and the fuel filter was empty.

Discovered that I could not hear the fuel pump running when the key was turned on. Also the engine would continue to die upon a steep hill or a definite acceleration. Happened to be at a mechanic's shop. He found the Mass Airflow Sensor unplugged, which he says cause that type of engine stalls. Plugged it back in but didn't help.

Decided to not tow it home but instead leave it in his parking lot and walk 3 miles home. Plenty of time to think.

I'm of the opinion that a fuse may have blown. The last owner put in the fuel pump, and it seems he may have used the preferred wiring. Now I have to find the blown fuse. I think that whatever fuse blew was also powering some engine sensors, like Mass Airflow or others causing the engine to stall on acceleration. I'll check it out in the morning.

Dean.

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:13 pm

MAF sensor unplugged has nothing to do with it. That was the original EGR disable attempt on this vehicle. They drove fine with it unplugged.

Is this an inline pump? If so, did they install one that does not bypass when the pump fails? If it is inline, just remove it and patch the fuel line back together for now to get it running.

BTW....do you have the worst luck on the planet? Lol

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

WolverineFW wrote:

MAF sensor unplugged has nothing to do with it. That was the original EGR disable attempt on this vehicle. They drove fine with it unplugged.

Is this an inline pump? If so, did they install one that does not bypass when the pump fails? If it is inline, just remove it and patch the fuel line back together for now to get it running.

BTW....do you have the worst luck on the planet? Lol

WolerineFW,

Thanks for the response. I had heard on a YouTube Remove EGR video that unplugging the MAF would disable the EGR software in the ECM. However while standing with the mechanic I wasn't totally sure about it. Thanks for the reminder. I think that mechanic is more accustomed to working on gassers.

This lift pump is an inline pump and it's an electric block mounted underneath the vehicle near the fuel tank. Been busy this morning so I haven't gotten down to the Jeep yet. There seems to be something else going on besides the fuel because even with the filter full and pumped up, it still stalls under load. It idles fine but as soon as I encounter a small incline the engine stalls. I have thought of shifting into 4WD-low range and idling home.

Worst luck on the planet? I think so. :ROTFL:

I am a firm believer in Newton's Third Law of motion: "For every action there is equal and opposite reaction." I further believe that for every good day, there is an equal and opposite bad day.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

CaptainDean wrote:

My priorities changed this afternoon on the way home from work. The Jeep died and the fuel filter was empty.

Discovered that I could not hear the fuel pump running when the key was turned on. Also the engine would continue to die upon a steep hill or a definite acceleration. Happened to be at a mechanic's shop. He found the Mass Airflow Sensor unplugged, which he says cause that type of engine stalls. Plugged it back in but didn't help.

Decided to not tow it home but instead leave it in his parking lot and walk 3 miles home. Plenty of time to think.

I'm of the opinion that a fuse may have blown. The last owner put in the fuel pump, and it seems he may have used the preferred wiring. Now I have to find the blown fuse. I think that whatever fuse blew was also powering some engine sensors, like Mass Airflow or others causing the engine to stall on acceleration. I'll check it out in the morning.

Dean.

Went to the Jeep today. No power to the external fuel pump. Could not find a blown fuse so I ran a wire from the engine compartment fuse block, (battery connection) to the fuel pump. Pump works, but it also does not shut off when up to pressure.

Engine started normally and runs good. Shift to Drive and add throttle, engine dies. Restart, shift to Reverse and it has plenty of unstoppable power. Shift to Drive and it dies with just a little throttle.

What a quandary.

Dean.

JieselDeep · **Posted:** Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:54 pm

Did you check for codes? Some won't turn on the check engine light.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

I forgot to take my code reader. Tomorrow on way to work I'll read & reset codes just to see.

Dean.

iakj11 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:01 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

Pump works, but it also does not shut off when up to pressure.

Pretty sure these inline pumps don't shut off based on pressure, so this behavior is normal. Wired properly, the pump will run for 20 seconds or so with key in on position and then stop. The pump will run constantly when the engine is running and turn off with key off.

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:08 am

But what we all want to know is...........did you drive home in reverse?

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

WolverineFW wrote:

But what we all want to know is...........did you drive home in reverse?

I really, really wanted to, but the tiny adult

on one of my shoulders was yelling at me, "Don't Do It !!" I'd have to negotiate my way through town, along 3 miles of 2-lane highway, and finally up my steep road to the house.

The tiny teenager :jester:

on my other shoulder went home bummed.

........

After searching the Internet for clues to "engine stalls in drive not in reverse", several sites replied with low transmission fluid. It may have something to do with the transmission not being in low gear when the torque converter starts applying torque through the drive chain. The vehicle does lurch when shifted into drive or reverse at idle but the torque converter has not yet grabbed fully.

Regarding the electric fuel lift pump, this is probably another problem. I'll have to take the rear carpet up to see how the last owner connected the wires. And trace it back to where voltage is being lost.

Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

Who is online