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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 2:08 am 
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CaptainDean wrote:
I'm planning to dig into the beast tomorrow, including installing the new ProVent 200. If you were going to do it again, would you change anything? Should I mount the ProVent a little lower than the CCV puck so no filthy oil can return to the engine? It would mean checking the oil more often and adding a quart once in a while.
Dean.

Wouldn't change a thing! And due to space restrictions and limitations, you don't have much wiggle room as where to mount the ProVent.
Its oil vapors you are filtering and the ProVent removes and collects the liquids out of suspension with it coalescing and cyclonic actions, so you are not dealing with actual liquids leaving the puck, only vapors. So height would not make any difference IMHO. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 1:11 am 
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Starting to put the beast back together and noticed an issue with the camshafts sprockets. One has been slightly off since the last installation so I'm considering making some alignment pins to ensure they go on right. See the pictures here.

[Edited: Corrected measurement of camshaft keyway from 4.8mm to 5.75mm]

With the crankshaft at 3 o'clock, I like to install the sprockets so the witness marks have some meaning, as in this picture. They are almost facing each other at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock - but the spokes are aligned perfectly. This configuration makes the timing belt nice and tight across the tops of both sprockets.
Image

Also with the crank at 3 o'clock, the camshafts keyways are exactly facing each other at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock. However, with the sprockets installed, you cannot see the keyways anymore so you never truly know if you got them right.
Image

Camshaft keyways are 5.75mm (0.225")
Image

Since I did install the camshaft sprockets this way last time, I noticed markings (dark areas) on the mating surfaces between the sprockets and the camshafts. It indicated the intake camshaft sprocket was slightly off, maybe 1-1/2 or 2 degrees. The engine ran fine but I know these are interference engines. Luckily, there as no valve/piston contact this time but it does worry me. Notice that the spoke across from the keyway marking has some numbers stamped in it. Both sprockets are the same.
Image

I've come up with an sure-fire installation trick that I plan to implement with this installation. I'll drill to tiny holes 1.5mm (1/16") in each sprocket (as shown) and insert two alignment pins just for installation. The keyway is 5.75mm wide, so I'll drill holes that make the pins span ~5.7mm. This will guarantee the sprockets will go on correctly. I doubt two tiny holes will impact the structure of the sprockets. I'll remove the pins afterward to prevent them from falling out.
Image

I think it would be wise to let the machinist drill the holes. I can probably get them right on my drill press, but I think the machinist has a better chance. The machinist may talk me into drilling a single 5.75mm (0.225") hole and install a single 5.75mm pin in each sprocket and leaving it there. The bolt will cover a portion of the 5.75mm diameter pin.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


Last edited by CaptainDean on Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:40 am 
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CaptainDean wrote:
Starting to put the beast back together and noticed an issue with the camshafts sprockets. One has been slightly off since the last installation so I'm considering making some alignment pins to ensure they go on right. See the pictures here.

With the crankshaft at 3 o'clock, I like to install the sprockets so the witness marks have some meaning, as in this picture. They are almost facing each other at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock - but the spokes are aligned perfectly. This configuration makes the timing belt nice and tight across the tops of both sprockets.
Image

Also with the crank at 3 o'clock, the 4.8mm camshafts key ways are exactly facing each other at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock. However, with the sprockets installed, you cannot see the key ways anymore so you never truly know if you got them right.
Image

Since I did install the camshaft sprockets this way last time, I noticed markings (dark areas) on the mating surfaces between the sprockets and the camshafts. It indicated the intake camshaft sprocket was slightly off, maybe 1-1/2 or 2 degrees. The engine ran fine but I know these are interference engines. Luckily, there as no valve/piston contact this time but it does worry me. Notice that the spoke across from the key way marking has some numbers stamped in it. Both gears are the same.
Image


Much better to put the cam timing pins in & the one in the flywheel.
Then install the belt & tension it. Then tighten the bolts on the cams. That way you have the flexibility to account for any stretch in the belt or ware on the pullies.
If you key the pullies to the cams, you loose that adjustment. Once all done up & pins out of the cams & flywheel, turn the motor over by hand for 3 or 4 turns & recheck by putting the pins back in.

I've come up with an sure-fire installation trick that I plan to implement with this installation. I'll drill to tiny holes 1.5mm (1/16") in each sprocket (as shown) and insert two alignment pins just for installation. The key way is 4.8mm wide, so I'll drill holes that make the pins span ~4.7mm. This will guarantee the sprockets will go on correctly. I doubt two tiny holes will impact the structure of the sprockets. I'll remove the pins afterward to prevent them from falling out.
Image

I think it would be wise to let the machinist drill the holes. I can probably get them right on my drill press, but I think the machinist has a better chance. The machinist may talk me into drilling a single 4.8mm (3/16") hole and install a single 4.8mm pin in each sprocket and leaving it there. The bolt will cover a portion of the 4.8mm diameter pin.

Dean.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2023 1:23 am 
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Talked with the machinist and he agreed the simplest method is to use two pins at both sides of the camshaft keyway. Use drill bits to make the holes and then as pins. Took me a couple runs to get the spacing right. I drilled closer than necessary and with smaller drills. Then widen as necessary by drilling larger holes to span the width of the camshaft keyway.

Here are the results, one front side and one backside of the camshaft sprockets. The mating camshaft bore is 30mm (1.18") diameter, X Pi = 94mm (3.70") circumference. 3.70" is a number similar to 360° if you ignore the decimal. Figuring roughly, 3.60 ÷ 360° is 1/100th of an inch per degree around the circumference of the camshaft sprocket bore. That made it easy to guestimate the placement of the holes while standing at the drill press.
Image

By re-drilling the holes one drill bit size larger each time, it didn't take long to get a good fit of the drill bit spacing into the camshaft keyway. A little hard to see, but notice the drill bits sticking out of the camshaft sprockets. They ended up exactly at the outer edge of the socket on the camshaft sprocket bolt head. This method worked perfectly to hold the sprockets in-time while I tightened the bolts. I did use the sprocket holding tool to help prevent shearing off the drill bits as I torqued-down the bolts.
Image

This is the final result after removing the drill bit "pins" and installing the timing belt. The witness marks are aligned nicely.
Image

It's still odd to me that the fuel pump sprocket only aligns at the witness mark every third 4-stroke rotation.
Image

Here is the entire timing system. This is a handsome engine. Got the front cover on after taking these pictures. I'm hoping to crank it up tomorrow.
Image

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2023 4:06 am 
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CaptainDean wrote:
It's still odd to me that the fuel pump sprocket only aligns at the witness mark every third 4-stroke rotation.
Dean.

Dean I went back and found the write up and here is why:
Quote:
Posted by GDE back in 2011:
Based on the number teeth on the pulleys (24 for crank, 48 for cam and 36 for IP) the pump timing make will line of with the crank every 3 revolutions. However, to get the entire system in the correct timing position it will occur every 6 revolutions (where crank is 90 degrees after TDC, cam pins line up and IP is pointed at the timing mark).

A pump with the wrong timing can lead to lower power and higher noise as posted earlier in the discussion. This is due to the internal pressure wave in the rail. If the wave pulse is not timed with an injection event correctly, the pressure at the injector nozzle might be lower than desired when the injector is energized. This may lead to a lower pilot injection quantity or a missed pilot, thus leading to more combustion noise (typical pilot duration is 180-200 micro seconds). The main injection may have a lower actual injected quantity as well due to out of phase pressure wave (main injection pulse width can range from 200-1200 micro seconds depending on load). These pulse widths are for the Liberty CRD, other common rail applications can be different, depending on injector flowrate, solenoid actuation vs. piezo actuation, number of injections (two pilots, main and post), etc.

This is the original thread if you want to read through it all; it is long with lots of technical back and forth:
> viewtopic.php?f=5&t=58007&start=2

:SOMBRERO:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2023 9:53 am 
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Thanks WWDiesel,

It was late when I was writing the descriptions to my pictures and I did not elaborate on the fuel pump timing. I had already known about the sprocket teeth count that resulted in the alignment every third whole 4-cycle engine rotation. The pump itself is a 3-cylinder pump so it produces a pulse of fuel in the correct timing even though the sprocket seems out of time.

Furthermore, the 2/3's size of the fuel pump sprocket causes the pump to spin 1/3rd faster. I'm not sure, but it might produce a higher PSI pressure wave.

Sometime back, someone posted that the timing of the pump is not important because it merely pressurizes the fuel rail, and the electronic injection takes care of timing the fuel pulses into the cylinders. I'm glad you found the technical article that supports the timing of pressure waves into the fuel rail. I was surprised about the 180-200 microseconds; I would have suspected the pulses to be in the milliseconds range. Thanks for copying a section of that article here.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2023 1:21 pm 
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This may help explain it a little clearer:
The pump timing mark will line up with the crank every 3 revolutions. However, to get the entire system in the correct timing position it will occur every 6 revolutions (where crank is 90 degrees after TDC, cam pins lined up and IP [injection pump] is pointed at its timing mark).

So,it is not necessary to worry about which cycle the pump was in when you took it apart, or its original position, just time/align it to the two marks with the crank 90 deg.s AFC and cam pins inserted, then it will always be correct and will put one of its 3 cycles right where it is supposed to be as long as it is aligned to its timed marks even if it is 1/3 or 2/3 rotations out from its original position it will still always be properly timed for the pulse cycles.

IP pulley is turning 75% slower than crank pulley! IP makes a fuel pulse 3 times per single complete pulley revolution @ 120, 240, 360, 120 degrees.
Injectors fire every 90 deg.s of crank rotation, so IP is making a pulse at every injector firing event @ 90, 180, 270, 360 degrees.

Bottom line: The injection pump should be timed correctly!!!!! :banghead:

:dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy:

This is the math:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 1:29 am 
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Had a surprise experience with Limp-In mode. The engine ran fine except there was no power except slightly more than idle speed. Got home and the Code Reader told me the Glow Plugs or Glow Plug Control Module had low voltages.

Did a little digging around and identified the Glow Plug Control Module. The Field Service Manual has this picture backwards. I flipped it horizontally and now it's correct.
Image

We don't need glow plugs in the tropics so I unplugged the Glow Plug Control Module. Jeep runs fine again. Next time I have to dig into the engine compartment, I can strip out the Glow Plug wiring. It makes me feel better when I can simplify this Chrysler beast.

Can the Glow Plug system be deleted from the computer?

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 3:44 am 
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CaptainDean wrote:
Had a surprise experience with Limp-In mode. The engine ran fine except there was no power except slightly more than idle speed. Got home and the Code Reader told me the Glow Plugs or Glow Plug Control Module had low voltages.

Did a little digging around and identified the Glow Plug Control Module. The Field Service Manual has this picture backwards. I flipped it horizontally and now it's correct.
Image

We don't need glow plugs in the tropics so I unplugged the Glow Plug Control Module. Jeep runs fine again. Next time I have to dig into the engine compartment, I can strip out the Glow Plug wiring. It makes me feel better when I can simplify this Chrysler beast.

Can the Glow Plug system be deleted from the computer?

Dean.



I opened one up a while ago.
Its all electronic. Looks like they use power transistors to pulse the GP's. No electromechanical relays.
Looks like you cant replace components.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:44 am 
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Thanks for the response layback40,

If I was interested in fixing the glow plugs, then I'd probably replace the unit. The book says to check each glow plug with a multimeter looking for less than 0.8 ohms in each glow plug. Otherwise, the Glow Plug Control Module would be the problem. Changing glow plugs means removing the intake which is a pain, but not impossible.

Your conclusion of the computer pulsing the glow plugs sounds valid. There is a lot of Pulse Width Modification control throughout these Chrysler'ized Jeeps.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 12:25 pm 
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Hi Dean;
This is the drawing that I have on file (see below); let me know if you think it is incorrect. :?
As for the programing, I bet if you contact Yeti (Marco), he probably can rem out any GP fault codes and programing to meet your needs.

Message him on this forum, click on this image:
Image

OR
Clink on this link to send him an email:> eMail Marco aka "Yeti"
or you can message him on facebook.

Image
PM:> ucp.php?i=pm&mode=compose&u=42474

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05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:00 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Hi Dean;
This is the drawing that I have on file (see below); let me know if you think it is incorrect. :?
Image

This drawing is backwards too. The Glow Plug Control Module is in front of the Anti-Lock Brake assembly. Move the numbers out, flip the drawing sideways, then move the numbers back in.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:24 pm 
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Went out and located the GP relay on my 05; it is attached to the battery tray and is in between the Battery and in front of the ABS module as pictured below.
Pretty much like the FSM shows.

Image

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Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:30 pm 
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CaptainDean wrote:
Thanks for the response layback40,

If I was interested in fixing the glow plugs, then I'd probably replace the unit. The book says to check each glow plug with a multimeter looking for less than 0.8 ohms in each glow plug. Otherwise, the Glow Plug Control Module would be the problem. Changing glow plugs means removing the intake which is a pain, but not impossible.

Your conclusion of the computer pulsing the glow plugs sounds valid. There is a lot of Pulse Width Modification control throughout these Chrysler'ized Jeeps.

Dean.


You can test the GP's resistance by unplugging the module & check resistance to earth for the wires that go to the GP's.
normally when a GP goes out, you get a code for that GP.
The pulse width thing is more a Bosch thing. Many other car brands suffer from it. Even Chinese ones now!

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:44 pm 
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In the interest of "I can't un-see that" I will recant my correction to the Field Service Manual picture of the Glow Plug Module location. I was thinking the FSM picture was from the vantage point of looking across the engine bay. I was wrong. The connection on the Master Cylinder reservoir should have been the true give-away.

These first pictures are taken from just over the fender. The oddly purple connector face is where the Glow Plug Module connects.
Image
Image

These pictures are from the opposite side of the vehicle.
Image
Image


While I was taking pictures, Here is the installation of my Catch Can. Instead of running a drain hose with a valve, I simply captured the small drain hose and held it alongside the catch can with the open end higher than the oil could ever get. I can loosen the two larger input and outlet hoses and lift the Catch Can straight up. It sits atop the hard AC lines with nothing to obstruct simply lifting it out.
Image

I routed the Catch Can output into the air cleaner box instead of directly into the turbocharger hose. I put a shop towel in the Air Cleaner box just to see if any oil comes out. So far, 3 days of driving and not a single drop. (I plugged the original hole in the turbo inlet hose.)
Image

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2023 1:24 am 
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Yesterday's codes came on when I dropped a fellow worker off around 5 pm...
P0403 - EGR Solenoid Circuit Open Circuit
P1263 - Glow Plug #2 low
P1267 - Glow Plug #3 low
P1265 - Glow Plug #4 low
... so I removed the Glow Plug Control Module and it ran fine.

Today I drove to work and the Jeep ran great. After work, upon starting it at 4:30 pm to come home, it immediately went into Limp-In mode again. Made it home and checked the codes...
P0670 - Glow Plug Controller malfunction (I have the GP Control Module removed)
P1140 - Vacuum Reservoir Solenoid Open Circuit (Have to look at this)
P0299 - Boost Pressure Sensor Positive Deviation (Don't know why this happened)
P0403 - EGR Solenoid Circuit Excessive Current (EGR system removed but not yet deleted from computer)

I'll drive the pickup to work tomorrow.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2023 10:41 am 
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The P0670 is a given being you have the GP module unplugged.
But the others to me point to a partial short to ground by one of the sensors wiring or a connector.
Since you have the EGR unplugged, be sure the unused connector or its wiring has not become shorted out somehow.
Check all the wiring harnesses in the engine compartment, especially the ones that come in contact with the engine, to make sure you don't have a rubbed wire somewhere.
The harness that goes up behind the alternator has been known in the past to become shorted out to engine parts; check it closely! see pictures :juggle:
Good luck and keep us posted as to what you find (hopefully).

Image

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Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2023 3:43 am 
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Thanks for the clues WWDiesel,

I'm planning to climb into the engine compartment this weekend to see was'up. In the meantime, here are some pictures I'll be looking at during the process.

Here is the view of the Glow Plug Module while leaning over the fender. Battery to the left, brake anti-skid controls to the right. Wiring harness leading off toward the engine.
Image

These are the components of the Glow Plug system as stolen out of the Parts Fiche.
Image

Here is the Glow Plug power distribution. Where it shows a common connection to the starter, that might be on the inboard end of the Power Distribution and Fuse / Relay module. (Corrections?)
Image

The wiring of the Glow Plug system.
Image

Finally the Glow Plug Module connector pin-out.
Image
Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2023 2:53 am 
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LOST Junkie
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Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am
Posts: 694
Been struggling :dizzy: to get the MPPS program running on a Windows 10 laptop, but finally got some progress. Several articles said to install an alternate boot Operating System, or a virtual machine program. I installed Oracle's VirtualBox and had to make changes in the BIOS to get VT enabled for the CPU. Finally got it. :BANANA:

Then I could install Windows XP and I have both XP Home and XP Professional CDs. The crystal box for XP Home was empty! :furious: The XP Pro DVD sleeve was full but that disc would not boot. The VirtualBox program looks for a .ISO file but it was not on the DVD. Rats. :banghead:

Finally found a video on YouTube University about how to run the MPPS program on Windows 10. :BANANA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j936j7g44Og
Had to slow down the playback speed on YouTube to 0.25 speed to follow the guy clicking away on his screen. His method worked so now I have the MPPS program working on Windows 10. :BANANA: Of course it's too late to do anything tonight, so maybe I can pick up tomorrow after work.

Image
Image

Whew. Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


Last edited by CaptainDean on Mon May 08, 2023 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2023 3:36 am 
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LOST Junkie

Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:09 pm
Posts: 541
Location: Australia
I have that but have never used it.

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Australian KJ CRD 2006


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