Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

layback40 · **Posted:** Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:52 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

Taking a break. Have 1 more bolt to remove before the transmission comes out. Found all four bolts sheared off from flex plate to torque converter. That is a good reason for the intense noises and the final and sudden no drive. Last bolt is the top right-side (where the transmission dipstick is attached). I'll have to get it out from the top with a combination wrench and a quart of Bourbon.
Dean.

Sounds like that may have been your noise. IIRC its always best to use loctite on those TC bolts. The TC goes with its transmission not the engine.
Now you have a hard decision to make ~ replace the trans with an unknown or clean out yours & keep your fingers crossed. In this case I think the fluid color in yours is the deciding factor. Unless the fluid in the others is black as well. Mileage on the other jeep compared with yours may also be a factor.
Good Luck!

vwroad87 · **Posted:** Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:44 pm

The good: The amount of clutch material and metal in the pan is normal.

The bad: Black, very dark fuild means you have glazed the clutch surfaces and plates, you have most likely hardened the clutch pack pressure lip seals and orings.

The reason it stopped is because the clutchs are now slipping.

You will need to rebuild this transmission and change the torque converter because you can never "clean" it and it has clutches as well for lock up.

I have built many transmissions, this is my experience. Sorry for you problems.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

Oddly enough, this transmission has been shifting and pulling fine, it was the banging noise and the sudden loss of propulsion that had me stumped.

Regarding the flex plate/torque converter bolts, they were at least used, or I may installed new ones from Ace Hardware or Fastenal - I don't remember. I do, however, remember putting thread locker blue on them.

Got the last bolt out [of the bell housing] this evening as the sun was setting. Had to take the transfer case off to get access to the last bolt. In the morning I will disconnect those damned Chrysler connectors and get the transmission onto the ground.

Since the 4 bolts are broken, it may be worth while to me to put my transmission back in with fresh fluid. The new scanner/reset tool should arrive Jan 7. If I get the beast back together I should leave it parked until I can do the Quick Learn.

WolverineFW, Thanks for the alert and your concern. I am always a little skeptical product feedback; we never know whether users are car-savvy or tech-worthy about specialized electronics. The Launch IcarScanner X431 will not do the Quick Learn by itself. The external EZ Diag app has it instead, which has to be downloaded separately. I will find out when it arrives. If it definitely does not Quick Learn the Jeep's Chrysler transmission, I will verify that here.

Dean.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:31 am

CaptainDean wrote:

Regarding the flex plate/torque converter bolts, they were at least used, or I may installed new ones from Ace Hardware or Fastenal - I don't remember. I do, however, remember putting thread locker blue on them.
Dean.

Couple things... The TC / Flex Plate bolts are special. Use factory bolts, not general hardware. https://www.idparts.com/torque-converter-bolts-liberty-crd-p-6673.html Some people re-use them. A few decades ago I wrenched on a fleet of Pepsi Bottling Co trucks, and learned to never re-use them, and always use plenty of blue goop.

Next, When you put it back together, no matter which trans you use, use the flex plate from the other CRD. It's extremely likely that in the process of shearing off the bolts that were there, the flex plate bolt holes were "ovallized" or "oblongated" and the new bolts might fail anyway. Yes i know they aren't real words but I'm hoping you get the idea.

Have a great New Years :rockon:

vwroad87 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:25 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

Oddly enough, this transmission has been shifting and pulling fine, it was the banging noise and the sudden loss of propulsion that had me stumped.

Regarding the flex plate/torque converter bolts, they were at least used, or I may installed new ones from Ace Hardware or Fastenal - I don't remember. I do, however, remember putting thread locker blue on them.

Got the last bolt out [of the bell housing] this evening as the sun was setting. Had to take the transfer case off to get access to the last bolt. In the morning I will disconnect those damned Chrysler connectors and get the transmission onto the ground.

Since the 4 bolts are broken, it may be worth while to me to put my transmission back in with fresh fluid. The new scanner/reset tool should arrive Jan 7. If I get the beast back together I should leave it parked until I can do the Quick Learn.

WolverineFW, Thanks for the alert and your concern. I am always a little skeptical product feedback; we never know whether users are car-savvy or tech-worthy about specialized electronics. The Launch IcarScanner X431 will not do the Quick Learn by itself. The external EZ Diag app has it instead, which has to be downloaded separately. I will find out when it arrives. If it definitely does not Quick Learn the Jeep's Chrysler transmission, I will verify that here.

Dean.

Okay, I missed the bang part of the failure diagnosis. Agree with GornadoCRD, factory bolts and check that flex plate closely, they can all crack. I would definately rig a system or have a transmission flush done so you can get all the fluild out of the TC. Also a little trans tune by seafoam can help remove some varnish and improved seal condition damage that may have occured. Good luck

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:33 pm

Don't forget to flush out the transmission cooler lines and cooler of the burnt fluid so it won't contaminate your fresh transmission. :wink:

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

It will be difficult to call myself a mechanic from here on out. I'm certain that I put thread locker blue on these bolts. I am completely surprised that they came loose and got sheared off. Only 1 bolt remains in a threaded hole in the torque converter.

Here are some pictures to chew on...

Two filters in this transmission.

Back of engine showing flex plate.

Two bolts backed off, another one loose.

Flex plate holes elongated, just as GordnadoCRD predicted.

3 bolts backed out completely, one sheared off.

Fragmented bolts in bottom of engine/transmission cavity. I will find out where that yellow case fragment came from when I remove the flex plate. Rusty surface probably contributed to bolts coming loose.

Dean.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:40 am

From looking at your flex plate picture, I'm betting it came from the rear main seal carrier behind it.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

GordnadoCRD wrote:

From looking at your flex plate picture, I'm betting it came from the rear main seal carrier behind it.

Sorry GordnadoCRD, your statement is too vague, I don't understand it; what came from the rear main seal carrier?

Even though I am certain I tightened the bolts on the crankshaft to flex plate, and flex plate to TC, I am surprised they came loose.

Just ordered the 4 flex plate to torque converter bolts. Did not find the 8 crankshaft to flex plate bolts on ID Parts nor Sasquatch Parts. Is there another source besides the dealer?

layback40 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:10 am

CaptainDean wrote:

GordnadoCRD wrote:

From looking at your flex plate picture, I'm betting it came from the rear main seal carrier behind it.

Sorry GordnadoCRD, your statement is too vague, I don't understand it; what came from the rear main seal carrier?

If you look at your pic of the broken bolts below the flex plate, there is a small piece of alloy with yellow paint on it.

What is the condition of the fluid in your spare trans? If it looks better than this one, I would seriously consider a change.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

Oh, the broken piece. That came from the adapter plate between the engine and transmission. The TC bolt backed out and broke a chunk out of the port where you gain access to the TC bolts. It is not a structural part, just a shroud, so I'm not concerned about it. Easy to get the 6 main bolts out, but very tough to disconnect the heat shield and connector holder for the crank sensor from the top.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:54 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

GordnadoCRD wrote:

From looking at your flex plate picture, I'm betting it came from the rear main seal carrier behind it.

Sorry GordnadoCRD, your statement is too vague, I don't understand it; what came from the rear main seal carrier?
Even though I am certain I tightened the bolts on the crankshaft to flex plate, and flex plate to TC, I am surprised they came loose.
Just ordered the 4 flex plate to torque converter bolts. Did not find the 8 crankshaft to flex plate bolts on ID Parts nor Sasquatch Parts. Is there another source besides the dealer?

Item No. 23
BOLT. Flexplate. Part Number: 05014969AA
BOLT. Flexplate. . ST. Required: 008

> https://www.factorychryslerparts.com/sh ... evel=18498

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

Finally dug into the other transmission. Hoisted it up in the air with the shop crane and dropped the pan. Here are the results.

First is a fluid comparison from the dip stick. Top left is the other trans, top right is mine. Bottom is new fluid from the bottle.

With transmission suspended from the shop crane, dropped the pan into a concrete mixing basin. There was a lot of water, maybe 2 cups. Not sure whether rain got in through the dip stick or the vehicle was driven into the water.

Close up of the pan after draining. Squiggly things that look like (algae?). Apparently not much clutch material unless it was soaked up by the water and poured out.

The magnet from the other transmission definitely has less metal shaving collected. Mine was fuzzy with ferrous material.

Cut open both filters, mine and the other trans. Top one is the other transmission, bottom one is mine.

Decanted the fluid into jars. All in all, there was not much transmission fluid, but a lot of water. The jar on the left is from my transmission.

I would now consider the other transmission *was* the better one.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:05 pm

The other trans looks like it has been drowned. Would have it out in the sun during the day for a few days. not sure what is your best option for flushing it out. The TC is the hard one, I would be filling it up, shaking it about & then sucking out as much fluid as you can. Probably doing that twice is about as good as you are going to get. Old Mercedes 4 spd autos had a small drain plug so they could be drained.
Don't forget the can filter needs replacing as well as the filter you have dissected.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

Latest update...

Drained the 'other' transmission torque converter and it had only fluid in it, so the water is rainwater. I am considering using the other transmission but switching the valve body from mine to the 'other' one. Not sure if these transmissions are actually the same.

Compared both transmissions and mine has an additional detent position on the shift lever. Otherwise they seem identical. I have not compared the valve bodies but that could be my next step.

Here are the labels of both transmissions. Can anyone tell the differences?

Label on my 2005 transmission with additional shift lever position. Mine is clearly "462".

Label on 'other' 2006 transmission. Difficult to tell, but this one looks like "482". Is that possible?

Dean.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:34 am

Interesting.

Is the other CRD an '06? That label indicates its a fair amount newer than your original label.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

GordnadoCRD wrote:

That label indicates its a fair amount newer than your original label.

The other CRD is an '06. After checking the shift levers again, I find they do have the same number of detent positions. (Oops)

After searching the web, I have not found anyplace that will cross reference the label on the transmission to a model such as 45RFE or 545RFE. The overhaul manual .PDFs from on-line treat them the same.

In the end, I have decided to use my own transmission again only because it is a known working unit. The other one is unknown. I did, however, swap the torque converter from his to mine because the threaded mounting holes are undamaged.

The new bolts arrived today so I'm putting it back together. The iCarScan arrived yesterday. More news later...

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

Been nursing a cold this weekend but managed to get the transmission in place twice. The second time also included the dip stick tube. Still have more bolts to put in and connect the controls and wiring. Next weekend I hope to finish it.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

Did not get as far as I predicted this weekend due to attempting to open my transfer case. Also the home brewers' club meeting was Saturday so that cut one day in half. In the end, the Liberty transfer case was not identical to ones on YouTube. After a couple hours, I aborted the internal inspection and merely put the 'other' transfer case on my Jeep. Got as far as the transfer case bolted up before nighttime set in.

Drained the transfer case fluids from both units. The one of the left is mine, and on the right is from the 'other' transfer case. Visually they look the same but the camera caught them a little differently. I refilled the 'other' case and installed it.

Not realizing the mistake, we split the transfer case from the transmission in Paauilo at this seam, so I did the same to my own transmission/transfer case in Kona. After realizing the mistake, I have since put the original transmission tail piece back on my own transmission.

With the transmission and transfer case split on the wrong seam, I was surprised to find a "New Venture Gear" sticker on the transmission. The label on the top is from my transmission.

A close-up of my transfer case tag, along with a longer shot of the same unit.

This next weekend I will put the finishing touches on this job.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

Finally got the beast back on the road again. 0.5 miles on the counter. There is still the same clinking and clanging sound that started this entire thread. I'm starting to wonder if it's in the transmission, although I cannot imagine what it could be. The transmission runs fine and shifts smoothly. The front drive shaft is removed and the transfer case is the one from the 2006 Jeep. The torque converter is from the 2006 as well. Soon as I raise the RPM above idle it goes away.

Any comments?

GordnadoCRD: Did you ever find a cause of torque converter bolts shearing off in the trucks you worked on ? I'm just curious.

Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

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