Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

layback40 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:27 am

CaptainDean wrote:

Our Liberty vehicles are really nice, but I loathe all the wiring. So, I have wondered how to get rid of the ECM for this engine. Now while searching through all the CP3 videos, there are some videos regaling "dump your CP4 for a CP3". This led me to the Linear pumps. The mounting looks the same, the crankshaft pulley and the fuel pump pulley seem to be 2:1 ratio... ...I wonder if a nice little 4-pumper linear pump for a ~2.8L would bolt onto this engine? There must be mechanical injectors that will fit. And hard lines could be fabricated by a worthy shop.

This model is not a direct bolt-up, but there must be some that are...

Has anyone done that? Need to trade the fancy electronic accelerator pedal for a mechanical pedal with a push-pull cable and return spring.

I can just imagine going on a wire pulling frenzy and reducing the weight of this vehicle by 100 pounds. [Drool]

Dean.

I got 2,500,000km out of a merc 300d. Nothing electronic on it except the radio.
For the 2.8 you would probably need a 2 stage pump as its turbo.

Got the spare injector pump in today.
Need to finish off putting everything back tomorrow & then fingers crossed, see if its fixed.
All dependent on the weather.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

layback40 wrote:

I got 2,500,000km out of a merc 300d. Nothing electronic on it except the radio.
For the 2.8 you would probably need a 2 stage pump as its turbo.

Got the spare injector pump in today.
Need to finish off putting everything back tomorrow & then fingers crossed, see if its fixed.
All dependent on the weather.

A million miles on your Mercedes diesel ! That's what I like to hear. Only wires to the engine were 1-wire coolant temp & oil pressure sensors, and the starter & fuel shutoff, and ground.

Good luck when all the parts are back together.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:06 am

CaptainDean wrote:

Good luck when all the parts are back together.

Dean.

Total waste of time!
Spent Sunday in light rain finishing putting it back together.
Was not pleasant.
Eventually it started.
Still getting P1260 code ~ Large fuel leak.
Noticed when first started, it would cut out after a minute or so.
Idling a bit rough but improves if I pump the primer pump.
Next step will be to change fuel filter again & blow back fuel supply line to tank.

Did you have any luck cleaning your injectors?
Any improvement to it?
I might change mine with the set in the other jeep.
Its had plenty of injector cleaner through it.
I would suggest that you think long & hard before attacking your CP3.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

layback40 wrote:

A: Still getting P1260 code ~ Large fuel leak.
Noticed when first started, it would cut out after a minute or so.
Idling a bit rough but improves if I pump the primer pump.
Next step will be to change fuel filter again & blow back fuel supply line to tank.

B: Did you have any luck cleaning your injectors?
Any improvement to it?
I might change mine with the set in the other jeep.
Its had plenty of injector cleaner through it.
I would suggest that you think long & hard before attacking your CP3.

Bummer that you're have such a hard time, and the weather is only giving you grief.

A... So, along the line where could fuel be leaking that the ECM would pick up on it. It has to be sensed. I'm sure you're aware of the possibilities, but for the newbies that read this, here is a breakdown.

First place to look is the fuel filter. Since these fuel pumps have their own lift pump, it could be sucking air through an improperly sealed fuel filter gasket. ...or even the bleeder fitting, and not show any fuel leakage. The mechanical lift pump is stronger than the fuel tank pump, so even though there is no leak at the filter head from pressure, there could be a leak from suction.

If the pressure is low in the fuel rail, the Fuel Pressure sensor would pick up on it. If you can remove the return lines from the plastic return manifold without breaking it, then you can see which line(s) are passing the most fuel. I'd hate for you to learn it is coming from the newly replaced fuel pump Regulator control. There could be a piece of fuel debris be preventing the fuel pressure regulator from seating properly. There is no check valve ball (BB sized ball) in the regulator hole, so you can safely pull it out and use the priming pump to push fuel through the system to flush something out.

Next in line are the injectors. You could disconnect the daisy-chain fuel return line and connect 4 separate lines, one from each injector, to a something to capture fuel. If one injector is passing excessive fuel back to the tank, you should see it there.

Last is the Fuel Pressure Solenoid on the back of the fuel rail. It dumps into that same plastic manifold. I've noticed plugs are available for the back of the fuel rail. This could be dangerous if it's left in place and you charge up a mountain. The fuel rail could split apart. Use a plug only as a test.

If none of those do it, then the CP3 high pressure fuel pump could be under performing.

B... I cleaned my injectors but they were already clean. Didn't have to clear any of the spray nozzle ports. In the end, that didn't make any difference.

A new Fuel Pressure Regulator arrived today, a day later than scheduled. Also too late in the day so I didn't get started on replacing it. Had to take care of making a trip to the dump and plan for replacing my main water line to the house.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:45 am

Thanks for the comments Dean.
Do you know how much fuel each injector is expected to be returning at idle.
With an IDI system there is normally nearly none.
I just disconnected the return on injector #1.
Significant flow. As much as was coming out of the return line (from other injectors).
Might try replacing injector #1 but keep the original tip.
When idling there is a smell of part burned diesel at the exhaust.
I have read that the fuel leak code is caused by a low fuel rail pressure detection.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:08 pm

There is an INJECTOR LEAK QUANTITY test described in the 2005 FSM in section 14, page 48. > http://www.colorado4wheel.com/manuals/J ... Manual.pdf

FSM wrote:

Perform this test with the engine at operating temperature.
This test will assist in determining a defective or internally leaking injector(s) is present by measuring the amount of fuel return.

i don't think this test will determine if an injector is leaking by internally an dumping excess fuel into the cylinder.
To test for that, you would need to cap off one injector supply line at a time until you find the defective one.

The test cap could be made from any extra metal injector supply line by cutting it off and welding the cut off end shut.

or
order a test blockoff cap for Bosch System, several vendors including Amazon list them for sale online,
https://www.amazon.com/kweiny-Diesel-Co ... B081NGCSVW

look for:
Jeep Liberty CRD Injector Block-Off Tool / Cap :google:

layback40 · **Posted:** Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:45 pm

WWDiesel wrote:

There is an INJECTOR LEAK QUANTITY test described in the 2005 FSM in section 14, page 48. > http://www.colorado4wheel.com/manuals/J ... Manual.pdf

FSM wrote:

Perform this test with the engine at operating temperature.
This test will assist in determining a defective or internally leaking injector(s) is present by measuring the amount of fuel return.

i don't think this test will determine if an injector is leaking by internally an dumping excess fuel into the cylinder.
To test for that, you would need to cap off one injector supply line at a time until you find the defective one.

The test cap could be made from any extra metal injector supply line by cutting it off and welding the cut off end shut.

or
order a test blockoff cap for Bosch System, several vendors including Amazon list them for sale online,
https://www.amazon.com/kweiny-Diesel-Co ... B081NGCSVW

look for:
Jeep Liberty CRD Injector Block-Off Tool / Cap :google:

Or just place a small disk of brass or similar inside the pipe fitting going to the injector.
Using a soft metal stops damage to the fittings.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

layback40 wrote:

I don't think this test will determine if an injector is leaking by internally an dumping excess fuel into the cylinder. To test for that, you would need to cap off one injector supply line at a time until you find the defective one.

(If you're not adverse to possibly burning down your Jeep...) Remove the injectors and reassemble them sticking out cattywompas atop the engine on the hard lines. Re-attach the the injector electrical connectors. Teach an expendable monkey to crank the engine while you look to see the injectors spraying and/or dripping fuel all over the top of the engine. Keep a fire extinguisher handy to fend off the angry Monkey.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:18 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

layback40 wrote:

I don't think this test will determine if an injector is leaking by internally an dumping excess fuel into the cylinder. To test for that, you would need to cap off one injector supply line at a time until you find the defective one.

(If you're not adverse to possibly burning down your Jeep...) Remove the injectors and reassemble them sticking out cattywompas atop the engine on the hard lines. Re-attach the the injector electrical connectors. Teach an expendable monkey to crank the engine while you look to see the injectors spraying and/or dripping fuel all over the top of the engine. Keep a fire extinguisher handy to fend off the angry Monkey.

Dean.

D
Injectors! Injectors! Injectors!
I have just swapped the body of #1 injector with the body of a spare. I kept the tip as the spare had a blocked tip.
Jeep starts without starter fluid & now has no issues below 50mph. Previously, 30 mph was the limit if I didnt want it to die.
Most of the smoke is gone. I can now drive through town without hiding from authorities.
I will change out the bodies of the other 3 in a couple of days one at a time to see what one is still an issue if not more.
Dont know how the fuel flows in the injector body but there must be a way for rail pressure to leak to the overflow.
Maybe someone who has disassembled an injector body can comment.
I hope my horrible past week has some benefit to solving your problem.

LB

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

layback40 wrote:

Don't know how the fuel flows in the injector body but there must be a way for rail pressure to leak to the overflow.
Maybe someone who has disassembled an injector body can comment.
I hope my horrible past week has some benefit to solving your problem.

Dirt. Carbon. Varnish. These are the 3 things that can prevent fuel from stopping inside the fuel injector body. When fuel doesn't stop inside the injector body, pressure cannot build up properly inside the fuel rail, lines and injector body.

Just happened to have found an excellent drawing of an electronic diesel fuel injector. Fuel flow is not instantly logical, the inventors had to deliver fuel rather back handed method.

Here are the 3 steps to the process. You'll be able to determine what can mess up the proper flow.

High pressure fuel is held constant at 1 in the drawing. It floods the entire white area inside the injector. Same as a toilet tank flapper valve, the needle is held down by fuel pressure on the top and sides of the NOZZLE NEEDLE, but not on the bottom. Spring tension in the top of the body holds the BALL tight against the port leading to the FUEL RETURN LINE, thus keeping the fuel trapped inside the injector body.

When the ELECTROMAGNETIC COIL gets excited with a pulse, it pulls up against the springs holding the BALL against the port leading to the FUEL RETURN LINE. This allows pressure to be released at point 2 and also allows the NOZZLE NEEDLE to rise up and out of the INJECTION NOZZLE.

With the NOZZLE NEEDLE no longer blocking the path through the INJECTION NOZZLE, a tiny amount of high pressure fuel can be released through the INJECTION NOZZLE 3 causing the spray.

If this is a clear enough explanation, then you can understand how Dirt Carbon and Varnish would cause the injector to leak, thus preventing the fuel rail from building up pressure fully.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:58 am

CaptainDean wrote:

layback40 wrote:

Don't know how the fuel flows in the injector body but there must be a way for rail pressure to leak to the overflow.
Maybe someone who has disassembled an injector body can comment.
I hope my horrible past week has some benefit to solving your problem.

Dirt. Carbon. Varnish. These are the 3 things that can prevent fuel from stopping inside the fuel injector body. When fuel doesn't stop inside the injector body, pressure cannot build up properly inside the fuel rail, lines and injector body.

Just happened to have found an excellent drawing of an electronic diesel fuel injector. Fuel flow is not instantly logical, the inventors had to deliver fuel rather back handed method.

Here are the 3 steps to the process. You'll be able to determine what can mess up the proper flow.

High pressure fuel is held constant at 1 in the drawing. It floods the entire white area inside the injector. Same as a toilet tank flapper valve, the needle is held down by fuel pressure on the top and sides of the NOZZLE NEEDLE, but not on the bottom. Spring tension in the top of the body holds the BALL tight against the port leading to the FUEL RETURN LINE, thus keeping the fuel trapped inside the injector body.

When the ELECTROMAGNETIC COIL gets excited with a pulse, it pulls up against the springs holding the BALL against the port leading to the FUEL RETURN LINE. This allows pressure to be released at point 2 and also allows the NOZZLE NEEDLE to rise up and out of the INJECTION NOZZLE.

With the NOZZLE NEEDLE no longer blocking the path through the INJECTION NOZZLE, a tiny amount of high pressure fuel can be released through the INJECTION NOZZLE 3 causing the spray.

If this is a clear enough explanation, then you can understand how Dirt Carbon and Varnish would cause the injector to leak, thus preventing the fuel rail from building up pressure fully.

Dean.

I guess if there is a leak at 2, There is a problem.
Have read in the PDF presentation on CRD systems on here that 20ml in 2 minutes is about the right flow per injector return.
Have you disassembled the top part of an injector Dean?
Have only replaced 1 so far so I may disassemble the bad one & see what I find.
Its very clear what the outcome is.
On another note, any suggestions for a solvent to unblock tips.
Thinking of soaking them in acetone for a few days.
the trick with using a spray can with the little tube works well for testing spray patterns.
Have you had any luck with your cutting out?

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

layback40 wrote:

I guess if there is a leak at 2, There is a problem.
Have you disassembled the top part of an injector Dean?
Have only replaced 1 so far so I may disassemble the bad one & see what I find.
Its very clear what the outcome is.
On another note, any suggestions for a solvent to unblock tips.
Thinking of soaking them in acetone for a few days.
the trick with using a spray can with the little tube works well for testing spray patterns.
Have you had any luck with your cutting out?

Sorry for the delay. I've been replacing the main water line to my house, still not finished. :dizzy:

It's been 15 years since I disassembled the body of injectors, but those were the mechanical injectors from a 1991 Dodge Cummins 5.9. They work differently as each injector has it's own timed pulse of fuel. Those injectors have to 'pop' at a rather precise pressure.

The solvent I used to use was carburetor cleaner and I liked Metal Prep as well. Be wary of Metal Prep because it takes the 'springiness' out of springs and causes them to crumble like glass. Overnight in carburetor cleaner is fine. Warning: I would avoid cleaning the electrical parts in carburetor cleaner, use simple green for those and don't immerse them. Any slight leak could cause the electrical parts to short. Acetone is pretty strong as it eats away at plastic parts and epoxy-based potting compounds. I suggest replacing Acetone with Mineral Spirits because it is made from petroleum.

In general, I think the same cleaning skills apply in-that reassembly requires the parts be absolutely clean. ...and free of any particles. The metal parts have to make perfect metal face to face seals without the use of o-rings. If you don't have a clean room and a clean bath assembly station, (like any of us have that!) then spray clean aerosol oil on each part during assembly.

I have not gotten to my own Jeep because of work and the water main project. I've replaced everything else short of the injectors. I did blow brake cleaner through the body of the injector followed by blowing a light aerosol oil through them as a rinse. I've got high hopes for a huge difference once I replace the Fuel Regulator solenoid on the CP3 HPFP.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

CaptainDean wrote:

High pressure fuel is held constant at 1 in the drawing. It floods the entire white area inside the injector body. Same as a toilet tank flapper valve, the NOZZLE NEEDLE is held down by fuel pressure on the top and sides of the NOZZLE NEEDLE, but not on the bottom. Spring tension in the top of the body holds the BALL tight against the port leading to the FUEL RETURN LINE, thus keeping the fuel trapped inside the injector body.

When the ELECTROMAGNETIC COIL gets excited with a pulse, it pulls up against the springs holding the BALL against the port leading to the FUEL RETURN LINE. This allows pressure to be released at point 2 and also allows the NOZZLE NEEDLE to rise up and out of the INJECTION NOZZLE.

With the NOZZLE NEEDLE no longer blocking the path through the INJECTION NOZZLE, a tiny amount of high pressure fuel can be released through the INJECTION NOZZLE 3 causing the spray.

If this is a clear enough explanation, then you can understand how Dirt Carbon and Varnish would cause the injector to leak, thus preventing the fuel rail from building up pressure fully.

Dean.

One more tidbit about our electronic injectors is regarding the 23,000 PSI fuel pressure. 23,000 PSI refers to the pressure in 1 full square inch. The port leading to the BALL in the image above is not a full square inch, but rather a small fraction of it. If (for example) it's only 1/16" diameter port, then that 1/16" is only 1/256th of a square inch. So, 1/256th of 23,000 is only 89 pounds. The springs that hold the BALL only have to exert roughly 100 pounds to stop 23,000 PSI fuel pressure.

This also means that the ELECTROMAGNETIC COIL only need to pull about 20 pounds pressure to release the fuel at the BALL.

I'm starting to really respect the inventors of these injectors !

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:42 am

CaptainDean wrote:

High pressure fuel is held constant at 1 in the drawing. It floods the entire white area inside the injector body. Same as a toilet tank flapper valve, the NOZZLE NEEDLE is held down by fuel pressure on the top and sides of the NOZZLE NEEDLE, but not on the bottom. Spring tension in the top of the body holds the BALL tight against the port leading to the FUEL RETURN LINE, thus keeping the fuel trapped inside the injector body.

When the ELECTROMAGNETIC COIL gets excited with a pulse, it pulls up against the springs holding the BALL against the port leading to the FUEL RETURN LINE. This allows pressure to be released at point 2 and also allows the NOZZLE NEEDLE to rise up and out of the INJECTION NOZZLE.

With the NOZZLE NEEDLE no longer blocking the path through the INJECTION NOZZLE, a tiny amount of high pressure fuel can be released through the INJECTION NOZZLE 3 causing the spray.

If this is a clear enough explanation, then you can understand how Dirt Carbon and Varnish would cause the injector to leak, thus preventing the fuel rail from building up pressure fully.

Dean.

One more tidbit about our electronic injectors is regarding the 23,000 PSI fuel pressure. 23,000 PSI refers to the pressure in 1 full square inch. The port leading to the BALL in the image above is not a full square inch, but rather a small fraction of it. If (for example) it's only 1/16" diameter port, then that 1/16" is only 1/256th of a square inch. So, 1/256th of 23,000 is only 89 pounds. The springs that hold the BALL only have to exert roughly 100 pounds to stop 23,000 PSI fuel pressure.

This also means that the ELECTROMAGNETIC COIL only need to pull about 20 pounds pressure to release the fuel at the BALL.

I'm starting to really respect the inventors of these injectors !

Dean.

its a great diagram Dean.
I, like you have a background with IDI injectors.
The KJ is the first CRD I have ever played with.
Unless you see a GM 2 stroke as common rail (mechanical). I have played a little with them.
So far I have put the tips on 3 different injector bodies. I to go.
#2 was different as there was a small disk (~1/8"Diameter X ~1/32 thick), none of the others had the disk.
If there is a break in the weather, I will do #4 tomorrow.
After changing out #! the improvement was clear.
Hoping that the replacement of #4 will finish the fix.
The flow of overflow out the top of the injectors #1 to #3 has reduced.

I hope you are replacing your water main with plastic pipe.
its the pipe of choice over here. Even hot water pipes.
hope you dont mind me hyjacking your thread!

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Take a close look around your work area. I didn't notice that tiny part until I had cleaned two injectors and working on a third. I'm not sure what it is, but I'm sure you need it. I called it a Spacer in the picture. It's just as you described and it got hidden in the weave of my shop towel. Upon cleaning the third injector, I was lucky enough to find the first two Spacers.

Regarding my new water main, yes I did use plastic; High Density Polyethylene (HDPE) and sometimes called Driscoll or Drisco pipe. It's in and working, and all leaks stopped. Now I just have to cover it back up.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:09 pm

Drisco etc must be a name used on your side of the pond. In Aust its just called Polly pipe.
Over here the water distribution people are slowly replacing all their cast iron & steel pipes with plastic.
As a result the plumbing in older houses are failing as there is no longer cathodic protection from the iron based pipe.
New houses are all plastic here, both hot & cold water.

Of the 6 injectors I have had in pieces so far, only 1 has had that tiny spacer.
They all have an adapter piece (sleave) that allows for the difference in diameter between the pintil (piston) & the main shaft in the body.
The spacer would just rattle inside the adapter as the change in internal diameter of the adapter does the spacing.
this may just be a design change.
Everything else looks the same.
If this last injector change doesnt work, my next thoughts are the 2 wires to the CP3.
Not sure yet what pin numbers they are on controller, but I guess I will soon work it out.
I will be very annoyed with myself if it turns out to be a broken wire in a loom.
Anything is possible!

Weather is still cold. Its the coldest start to winter here in over 100 years!
Nothing compared with what our friends in the north of the US see though!
All the reservoirs are nearly full after a wet summer & there are predictions of a wet winter.
Maybe many getting more than wet feet if we get very heavy rain.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

layback40 wrote:

If this last injector change doesn't work, my next thoughts are the 2 wires to the CP3. (Bottom left corner)
Not sure yet what pin numbers they are on controller, but I guess I will soon work it out.
I will be very annoyed with myself if it turns out to be a broken wire in a loom.

WWDiesel make a great drawing of the fueling electrical system. Check out the Fuel Quantity Solenoid on the CP3 injection pump.

I am grateful that nearly all of the connections between the ECM and the units on the engine are straight wires, no plugs, no connectors. Opens and shorts are unlikely with straight wire connections.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:33 pm

Thanks Dean & WWdiesel !!
I am now getting a P0093 large fuel leak code.
Only occurs when I try & put my foot down. Even a small amount.
With the engine warm, it will slowly speed up.
Takes about 5 miles to get to 45mph.
Never gets to 2,000rpm. Dont wish for it to cutout.
Interesting that you gave me the 2005 diagram.
It turns out the export 2006 has the dreaded front control module.
Same as the 2005 in the USA.
When I put #4 injector in yesterday, didnt put the clip on the return fitting properly & now the top of the engine is covered in fuel after a 25 mile drive.
Think best fix the return clip & run it a little & see what happens.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

I'm not getting any codes, but your operation sounds the same as mine. Idles fine but cuts out with even a small amount of throttle pressure. It will get up to 1300 RPM but then begin to starve. Tomorrow I plan to change the Fuel Quantity Solenoid on the CP3 High Pressure Fuel Pump. I'll let you know what happens.

With only 1 pressure sensor on the fuel system, I don't understand how the ECM can determine that you have a Large Fuel Leak. At best, the ECM code must compare fuel rail pressure, throttle position, fuel temperature, air temperature and engine RPM to conclude fuel usage and/or leakage.

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:43 am

Oh what would we give if we only had a good logic diagram! :banghead:

Understanding would be a piece of cake....

Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

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