Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

Very interesting WWDiesel,

I am planning a different route. I plan to stay more stock and install a tee fitting on the filter in place of the water-in-fuel sensor. The sideways connection will hold the water-in-fuel sensor with the connector facing the front of the vehicle. The downward connection will have a hose leading to the front bumper area or fender well for a drain petcock. The tube will hold much more water than just the bottom of the filter.

Initally, I am planning to install a surface-mount electric fuel pump someplace, maybe under the vehicle, and connect it at one of the red arrows in this schematic - which ever spot is most accessible. This looks like it will get powered-up when the key is turned on, and powered-down with the key off, or in an emergency with Automatic Shutdown. This seems like a quicker install than the in-tank pump but should work for the interim. I can do the in-tank pump later. I may be able to keep the same connections for the in-tank pump.

I also plan to take layback40's suggestion of making a better seal at the click-together fuel line connectors. Schmeer them up with Silicone grease and/or sealant.

Here is the entire page...

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:18 pm

I lean towards discouraging you from using a hardening sealer. If anything, try petroleum jelly or dielectric silicone since the latter is used for sealing electrical connections against moisture incursion.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

CaptainDean wrote:

Initally, I am planning to install a surface-mount electric fuel pump someplace, maybe under the vehicle, and connect it at one of the red arrows in this schematic - which ever spot is most accessible. This looks like it will get powered-up when the key is turned on, and powered-down with the key off, or in an emergency with Automatic Shutdown. This seems like a quicker install than the in-tank pump but should work for the interim. I can do the in-tank pump later. I may be able to keep the same connections for the in-tank pump.

I got under the Jeep today and found the tank behind the axle, like a Pinto. To my surprise, someone previously added an external electric fuel pump. It's a Facet electronic fuel pump. The wiring is already coming through the body grommet so I assume he made the normal fuel gauge connector modifications.

Cracked open the supply line to the filter and turned on the key. It works.

I changed the filter and bled the top of the filter housing, so this is particularly disturbing to me. The engine runs, but only for a few seconds, 5 or 10, then dies. It's not the exact time each time so I doubt it's an electronic problem. I'm hoping it's not a fuel distribution pump problem.

The programming cable (MPPS V13) and mini CD arrived last week. Will I be able to scan and clear the codes using a laptop, or do I still need to get a scanner. The one I have works on other vehicles (Ford, Chevrolet) but does not operate on the Jeep.

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:03 pm

If there is a leak on the suction side of the in-line fuel pump in one of the fittings or one of the rubber hoses, it will still suck air and ingest it into the diesel fuel.

An intank fuel pump is the only sure way to fully insure putting all fittings and fuel lines under positive pressure thus eliminating any possibility of air ingestion into the fuel system... :wink:

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

Seems to be running again !!

Not sure which did the trick: 1) Bleeding the fuel rail at the highest injector connector, 2) Pushing the connectors a little tighter on the fuel rail sensors.

I did not feel any movement on the connectors, so I suspect the fuel rail had gotten too much air in it.

I'm not one to gush unlimited trust on anything right off the bat, so I'll run it up and down the driveway until I feel more trustworthy of it.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

Here is what I think happened that caused the stalls, which eventually led me to have the Jeep towed home.

1) Initially, found the fuel filter just a little loose.
2) This caused air to get slowly sucked into the fuel system and eventually trapped in the fuel rail.
3) Not understanding this, I messed around with too many other things until finally stumbling onto bleeding the fuel rail.

I'll have to check the pressure on the fuel pump, as I suspect it is not very strong.

How much pressure should I expect once I install the in-tank pump?

Dean.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:51 am

8-12 psi.

My ample gut is wanting me to ask if the rubber line between the pump and the tank has been checked for fully on, fully tight, and if the factory plastic lines between the tank and steel lines is still there or gone replaced by the rubber lines. Also wants me to ask if the rubber lines are diesel rated or not. If not, then you might want to look into that. If it's regular gasoline fuel line, it can come apart inside. It won't go past the filter at least, but it could reduce the output pressure of that pump to 0 if it blocks one of the sprung flapper valves inside.

layback40 · **Posted:** Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:52 am

CaptainDean wrote:

Initally, I am planning to install a surface-mount electric fuel pump someplace, maybe under the vehicle, and connect it at one of the red arrows in this schematic - which ever spot is most accessible. This looks like it will get powered-up when the key is turned on, and powered-down with the key off, or in an emergency with Automatic Shutdown. This seems like a quicker install than the in-tank pump but should work for the interim. I can do the in-tank pump later. I may be able to keep the same connections for the in-tank pump.

I got under the Jeep today and found the tank behind the axle, like a Pinto. To my surprise, someone previously added an external electric fuel pump. It's a Facet electronic fuel pump. The wiring is already coming through the body grommet so I assume he made the normal fuel gauge connector modifications.

Cracked open the supply line to the filter and turned on the key. It works.

I changed the filter and bled the top of the filter housing, so this is particularly disturbing to me. The engine runs, but only for a few seconds, 5 or 10, then dies. It's not the exact time each time so I doubt it's an electronic problem. I'm hoping it's not a fuel distribution pump problem.

The programming cable (MPPS V13) and mini CD arrived last week. Will I be able to scan and clear the codes using a laptop, or do I still need to get a scanner. The one I have works on other vehicles (Ford, Chevrolet) but does not operate on the Jeep.

Dean.

This is the sort of pump I was going to install on my XJ diesel. Never did. I still have the new pump. If I need to I will install in one of my KJ's. If its not too much trouble Dean, can you have a look at where its connected electrically.
If when you look at the connections you see any dust stuck around the joint you will have found your leak. Remember yours has been sitting for a year with fuel in it so any leak would have been fuel out.
It sounds like you have the gremlins just about sorted & cam look forward to a few years of trouble free motoring.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:38 am

layback40 wrote:

& can look forward to a few years of trouble free motoring.

with these vehicles that statement could be considered to be an "Oxymoron"? :ROTFL:

layback40 · **Posted:** Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:24 pm

WWDiesel wrote:

layback40 wrote:

& can look forward to a few years of trouble free motoring.

with these vehicles that statement could be considered to be an "Oxymoron"? :ROTFL:

There are many KJ CRD's out there that have run for years without issues. London taxis that use this engine have been known to run for 100s of thousands of miles without problems.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

CaptainDean wrote:

Got the MPPS V13 programming cable and CD today.

The CD is cracked and won't run. Does anyone have a link to download the contents of the mini CD? I got the same thing that is displayed in the DIY ECU Flash subject on page 1.

I was able to download V12 software, drivers, user handbook but I have not attempted to run it with a V13 cable. Tried downloading V13 from ODBII365.com but my web browser identifies that download as a known malicious program.

Dean.

JieselDeep · **Posted:** Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:47 am

I've got it here somewhere, I think. I've also got the gde tool to read and reset codes if you'd like to use it.

I haven't used my mpps since I bought the gde tune, so it might take me awhile to come up with it. I'll also check my downloads folder on my computer, I might have the zip file there too.

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

layback40 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:47 am

CaptainDean wrote:

Got the MPPS V13 programming cable and CD today.

The CD is cracked and won't run. Does anyone have a link to download the contents of the mini CD? I got the same thing that is displayed in the DIY ECU Flash subject on page 1.

I was able to download V12 software, drivers, user handbook but I have not attempted to run it with a V13 cable. Tried downloading V13 from ODBII365.com but my web browser identifies that download as a known malicious program.

Dean.

I bet you are running windows 10. & have windows defender running.
I had that when I first tried to download & there is an issue. I tried to stop defender. I could download all I want but the hardware has a code & password & the subsequent downloads are not recognized as they have new code & password.
It will be interesting if anyone can make yours work. If they can, could I please piggy back the solution.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:09 am

layback40 wrote:

There are many KJ CRD's out there that have run for years without issues. London taxis that use this engine have been known to run for 100s of thousands of miles without problems.

I don't know if it's true or not, but I was told that Both the London taxis, and the mid size Fiat trucks that use this engine all use in-tank lift pumps. Jeep are the only ones too dang cheap to properly set up in the first place.

layback40 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:33 am

GordnadoCRD wrote:

I don't know if it's true or not, but I was told that Both the London taxis, and the mid size Fiat trucks that use this engine all use in-tank lift pumps. Jeep are the only ones too dang cheap to properly set up in the first place.

You maybe right. Interesting though that many of the older Bosch IDI systems didnt need in tank pumps. Some (Mercedes) had mechanical lift pumps on the engine.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:54 am

I'm trying to confirm what year they started putting in-tank pumps, but I'm fairly sure some of the early years first gen Dodge - Cummins rigs had no lift pump feeding their CP3. I understand they had a ton of claims and problems, (much like the CRD torque converter issue) until they finally got lift pump units in the fuel level sending unit assembly. There was some trials and sorting out of potential suppliers too.

Sorry, Dean. Didn't mean to hijack your thread here. I have the disk that came with mine but have no clue where it is. Have you contacted the seller to see if they will send another?

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

layback40 wrote:

I bet you are running windows 10. & have windows defender running.
I had that when I first tried to download & there is an issue. I tried to stop defender. I could download all I want but the hardware has a code & password & the subsequent downloads are not recognized as they have new code & password.
It will be interesting if anyone can make yours work. If they can, could I please piggy back the solution.

I'm running Windows 7 with Norton Security, and Windows Defender is turned off on the home computer. However, I do have an XP Pro laptop that I can connect to the Internet and the Jeep. I'll try that. Thanks for the clues.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

GordnadoCRD wrote:

I'm trying to confirm what year they started putting in-tank pumps, but I'm fairly sure some of the early years first gen Dodge - Cummins rigs had no lift pump feeding their CP3. I understand they had a ton of claims and problems, (much like the CRD torque converter issue) until they finally got lift pump units in the fuel level sending unit assembly. There was some trials and sorting out of potential suppliers too.

Sorry, Dean. Didn't mean to hijack your thread here. I have the disk that came with mine but have no clue where it is. Have you contacted the seller to see if they will send another?

GordnadoCRD,

Hijacks happen, no worry. These detours are good when they are short or rather short. They help to add color to the entire thread as long as they are related to the main subject.

...but while we're out there, what does the "CP3" mean when referring to the mechanical fuel common rail pump on the engine? My old 5.9 Cummins had a rotary distribution pump with no electronics. I wish I could find the same thing for this 4-banger engine. It would tickle me pink if I could keep the luxury of the Liberty and eliminate the computers. Gads, with the Engine Control Module, Body CM, Antilock Brake CM, Powertrain CM, Front CM, Heated Seat CM, [Tim Taylor: "Ack! Ack! Ack"], this vehicle could be quite simple and weigh 200 pounds / 90 kg lighter.

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:05 pm

GordnadoCRD wrote:

I'm trying to confirm what year they started putting in-tank pumps, but I'm fairly sure some of the early years first gen Dodge - Cummins rigs had no lift pump feeding their CP3. I understand they had a ton of claims and problems, (much like the CRD torque converter issue) until they finally got lift pump units in the fuel level sending unit assembly. There was some trials and sorting out of potential suppliers too.

Sorry, Dean. Didn't mean to hijack your thread here. I have the disk that came with mine but have no clue where it is. Have you contacted the seller to see if they will send another?

My early 1998 1/2 Dodge Cummins came from the factory with a lift pump to feed the VP44. The pump is attached to the side of the engine block. Mine was replaced once while it was still under warranty. It is still running on the current replacement pump which Mopar no longer sells. They replacement retrofit for these trucks now is an intank pump module with a wiring harness that goes from the current engine mounted lift pump all the way to the fuel tank. The lift pump module is the exact same one we are putting in our Jeep Liberty CRD's.
That is why I have a fuel pressure gauge mounted on the cowl so I can monitor the performance of the lift pump and fuel filter condition.

I believe all 1998 1/2 to 2000 Dodge trucks with the Cummins engine came OEM with the lift pump on the side of the engine. Starting in 2001 Mopar started putting the lift pump inside the fuel tank from the factory where it should have been all along... :furious:

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 693

GordnadoCRD wrote:

Sorry, Dean. Didn't mean to hijack your thread here.

CaptainDean wrote:

Hijacks happen, no worry. These detours are good when they are short or rather short.

Detours? Detours? I just realized this entire thread is a detour. The original post is "Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking" and it turned into an engine overhaul thread. :dizzy:

With the Jeep back on the road, I still have the clinking and clanking. I have decided it is a worn out transfer case. The gears have such slop they clink and clank while idling. I took the front driveshaft off and the noise reduced by half by not rattling the front pinion and ring gear set and axle splines.

Here is my next question...

How do I determine if another used transfer case is better or worse than the one in the vehicle before I swap them?

Dean.

Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

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