Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

WWDiesel wrote:

I looked at both 05 & 06 wiring pin outs,
according to both diagrams, they both show the same pin data.
Pin #2 is fuel injector #2 on the C1 top ECM connector, Pin #2 on the C2 BOTTOM ECM connector is a GROUND
Pins 59, 84, & 86 are the wires for the fuel pressure sensor as listed below in bold blue.

Apparently I made a mistake in calling out the ECM pin numbers. Thanks for correcting that.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

layback40, and others,

You're not the only one still not on the road. Yesterday mine ran great going all around town getting a safety check, money to pay registration, and to DMV paying registration. I was happy yesterday, today I'm sad. I truly believe in the Equal and Opposite forces. I've come to not like happy days because I know an unhappy day is coming to balance it out. :dizzy:

Today it started then stalled before I could get it into gear to leave the driveway. There was a lot of air in the filter. There was not any fuel on the ground nor odors of fuel. :banghead:

What are some good aftermarket fuel filter heads with water separators?
The electric lift pump near the tank feeds well enough to purge air out of the soft lines.
If the CP3's mechanical lift pump is supposed to be so good, do I really need a priming hand pump?

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:07 pm

If you have an external lift pump mounted outside the fuel tank, it can and will suck air into the fuel system if there is any leaks anywhere on the suction side of the pump. Lines, fittings, etc... The OEM push on fuel line fittings on top of the fuel tank and at the connection point where it goes from a rubber line to a metal line are designed to seal under pressure. They are NOT designed to seal under suction! Why Chrysler used these fittings in a vacuum system is ludicrous. Some owners simply cut these push on fittings off and replace the hose and fittings with diesel rated hose and use either screw type or crimp type clamps at both connection points to ensure no leakage. Best mod is to install an intank fuel pump for the long haul. :wink:

The very reason I preach all the time of the benefits of having an "Intank" fuel pump installed. It puts EVERYTHING in the system from inside the fuel tank all the way to the back of the CP3 injection pump under the 12-15 psig positive pressure. So, if you have a leak anywhere, it will be self evident very quickly as fuel will leak out instead of air being sucked into the fuel system.
Changing fuel filter heads will not cure an external fuel pump sucking air problem. Just saying....

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

I know I've got a previous owner's new fuel hose coming off the top of the tank to the external fuel pump. I have not looked on top of the tank to see what fitting is there. I'm assuming the push-together connection has been replaced with simply the fuel hose and hose clamps. I'll have to actually look now.

Some LOST owners have installed an aftermarket fuel water separator, but I don't remember the brand & model. I do know that marine installations often use Racor filter units. Many of those have shorter filter/separator spin-on's and even a clear plastic separator that is convenient to see through.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:37 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

I know I've got a previous owner's new fuel hose coming off the top of the tank to the external fuel pump. I have not looked on top of the tank to see what fitting is there. I'm assuming the push-together connection has been replaced with simply the fuel hose and hose clamps. I'll have to actually look now.

Some LOST owners have installed an aftermarket fuel water separator, but I don't remember the brand & model. I do know that marine installations often use Racor filter units. Many of those have shorter filter/separator spin-on's and even a clear plastic separator that is convenient to see through.

Dean.

Sorry to hear your joy was short lived.
Air leaks are always a pain. If you can park it facing down hill, it may help.

With regard to external fuel pumps, I have the simple option.
A Faucet electric pump in the fuel line just before the filter.
It's attached to one of the bolts that hold the filter body.
Had the pump, so used it. By having clear plastic lines any air can be seen.
There are loops in the clear lines so any air will be in the top of the loop & easy to see.
A little overkill, with a check (one way) valve on the outlet of the filter outlet.
The power for the pump comes off the ASD relay pin.
The fuel filter head has been out & the donut piece with the 2 connections has been sealed with Hylomar.
There are no leaks in or out.
Have a in-tank pump to fit when I get to it.

WW wants me to determine rail pressure signal voltage output.
When the weather improves, I will.
Thinking of using my spare quality solenoid & connect it into the system.
At the same time, provide the solenoid on the CP3 with a 5v supply as I have one.
Reading, it appears that during startup, the solenoid is provided with straight DC 5v, not pulsed.
If it starts, It would take that out of the picture.
What do you think WWDiesel?

It's sitting for now, too cold/windy/wet to lift the hood!

Have my XJ diesel to use at the moment.
They were export only. 5 speed manual. Bit gutless compared with the KJ & no cruise control or ABS, but its ok.
It had a fit a few weeks ago showed "nopowerbus" on the odometer & would not start.
Found a wire on one of the temperature sensors had rubbed on the fuel return pipe on the IP & shorted.
All good now & fingers crossed.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

layback40 wrote:

Sorry to hear your joy was short lived.
Air leaks are always a pain. If you can park it facing down hill, it may help. << Maybe I should hang it from the telephone pole facing down !! :ROTFL:

With regard to external fuel pumps, I have the simple option. A Faucet electric pump in the fuel line just before the filter.
It's attached to one of the bolts that hold the filter body. By having clear plastic lines any air can be seen. There are loops in the clear lines so any air will be in the top of the loop & easy to see.

WW wants me to determine rail pressure signal voltage output.

At the same time, provide the solenoid on the CP3 with a 5v supply as I have one.
Reading, it appears that during startup, the solenoid is provided with straight DC 5v, not pulsed.

I like the idea of having the external fuel pump inside the engine compartment. No need for a long wire to the back. I think I might just put the pump after the filter and have clear tubes. I may also put a second banjo fitting directly atop the first one with a bleeder valve so I can bleed the entire fuel delivery system all the way to the CP3 fuel inlet.

Regarding fuel pressure in the rail, maybe the fitting is NPT... you could put a 30,000 PSI gauge on the rail just to check cranking pressure.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255423564161?h ... SwVlViJspS

Interesting to hear about the constant +5vdc on the regulator solenoid. With all this problems I'm having, I'm thinking of putting a 'tap a splice' connection in important places just to easily check signals.
https://www.amazon.com/Solderless-Conne ... 3807&psc=1

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

layback40 wrote:

Sorry to hear your joy was short lived.

Checked my Diagnostic Codes and got the following...
P0339 Crankshaft position sensor

P1267 Glow plug #4 :banghead:

P1265 Glow plug #3 :dizzy:

P1263 Glow plug #2 :furious:

P1140 EGR -- my EGR equipment is removed but I haven't deleted it from the ECM yet :roll:

P0403 EGR

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:32 pm

The actual amount of voltage going to the Fuel Quantity Solenoid on the back of the CP3 seems to be variable based on what I have read.
Dean may could post his findings when he was testing the FCA valve on his CP3.

This is one of several write ups I have on file concerning how the CP3 functions:
Note: Solenoid is also called: Fuel Control Actuator (FCA) AKA: Fuel Quantity Solenoid or Fuel Pressure Regulator
Quote:
Fuel is fed to the FCA via the cascade overflow valve located on the side of the pump. The cascade overflow valve's (COFV) sole purpose is to prioritize the fuel flow between the pump itself (i.e., feed the FCA), then flow excess fuel to the lubrication flows to cool and lubricate the pump and finally divert any excess flow above that to the return line back to the fuel tank.

The COFV prioritizes the flow in that order. If the flow rate is low, only the FCA will get fed. No cooling or return flow will be provided. If the flow rate increases, the pump will get cooled. Any more flow than that and some fuel will get sent out the return line. Note that this prioritization happens AFTER the internal supply pump and there is NO passage from the CP3 inlet to the CP3 return line. The inlet feeds the internal supply pump. Unlike other pumps where the fuel supply pump inlet may feed the internal cooling passages and make its way back to the return line.

The FCA is located on the back of the front cover of the high-pressure pump. The solenoid is pulse-width modulated valve controlled by the ECM and meters the amount of fuel that flows into the high-pressure elements inside the high-pressure pump.
This flow limiting valve is controlled by the ECM. It uses a variable pulse width 12v signal to charge an electromagnet. There is a small valve that is spring loaded to the open position inside this flow limiting valve. The electromagnet pulls the valve into the closed position to restrict fuel flow. The ECM constantly regulates this valve to achieve its desired fuel rail pressure.

The solenoid is inactive up to 30 seconds after the ignition switch is initially keyed to ON position to allow maximum fuel pressure to the fuel rail during cranking and start up. ECM assumes FCA valve control when CPS signal and rail pressure are within acceptable limits.

The FCA electromechanical device on the CP3 is also used by the ECM to limit fuel volume that the CP3 delivers. Notice that I said volume and not pressure

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Thanks WWDiesel,

This is an interesting write-up of the Fuel Control Actuator, AKA Fuel Quantity Solenoid & Fuel Pressure Regulator. Took a while to realize that "CPS" is the Crankshaft Position Sensor. That his a chord for me since the CPS was listed in my Diagnostic Codes. I will examine the CPS tomorrow.

At the moment, all the Diagnostic Codes are gone expect the EGR-related codes. However, the engine starts and runs fine for 2-3 seconds then shuts off. The original "30 seconds of Fuel Control Actuator inactivity" may now only be 2-3 seconds due to ECM updates over the years.

[Edit] I take that back now about the CPS. If it truly were at fault, the P0339 Diagnostic Code would be set. So, hmmm, I'm puzzled again.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:58 am

WWDiesel wrote:

The actual amount of voltage going to the Fuel Quantity Solenoid on the back of the CP3 seems to be variable based on what I have read.
Dean may could post his findings when he was testing the FCA valve on his CP3.

This is one of several write ups I have on file concerning how the CP3 functions:
Note: Solenoid is also called: Fuel Control Actuator (FCA) AKA: Fuel Quantity Solenoid or Fuel Pressure Regulator
Quote:
Fuel is fed to the FCA via the cascade overflow valve located on the side of the pump. The cascade overflow valve's (COFV) sole purpose is to prioritize the fuel flow between the pump itself (i.e., feed the FCA), then flow excess fuel to the lubrication flows to cool and lubricate the pump and finally divert any excess flow above that to the return line back to the fuel tank.

The COFV prioritizes the flow in that order. If the flow rate is low, only the FCA will get fed. No cooling or return flow will be provided. If the flow rate increases, the pump will get cooled. Any more flow than that and some fuel will get sent out the return line. Note that this prioritization happens AFTER the internal supply pump and there is NO passage from the CP3 inlet to the CP3 return line. The inlet feeds the internal supply pump. Unlike other pumps where the fuel supply pump inlet may feed the internal cooling passages and make its way back to the return line.

The FCA is located on the back of the front cover of the high-pressure pump. The solenoid is pulse-width modulated valve controlled by the ECM and meters the amount of fuel that flows into the high-pressure elements inside the high-pressure pump.
This flow limiting valve is controlled by the ECM. It uses a variable pulse width 12v signal to charge an electromagnet. There is a small valve that is spring loaded to the open position inside this flow limiting valve. The electromagnet pulls the valve into the closed position to restrict fuel flow. The ECM constantly regulates this valve to achieve its desired fuel rail pressure.

The solenoid is inactive up to 30 seconds after the ignition switch is initially keyed to ON position to allow maximum fuel pressure to the fuel rail during cranking and start up. ECM assumes FCA valve control when CPS signal and rail pressure are within acceptable limits.

The FCA electromechanical device on the CP3 is also used by the ECM to limit fuel volume that the CP3 delivers. Notice that I said volume and not pressure

Thanks WW !! It looks like I dont need to use a 5V power supply!
I can just connect the lead to the spare solenoid.
I wish to try & make sure there is potential for max rail pressure at startup.
If it fires up I will turn it off before there is a problem or wait for it to shut down from a rail overpressure signal.
Its still too wet here to do any more than think about it.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:35 am

Dean, The CPS (crank position sensor) is notorious for going bad and not setting "ANY" DTCs (Diagnostic trouble codes)
Many owners have reported of this in the past on this forum. So just because you don't have a DTC for it, don't rule it out.

Layback40, I read and understand the operation description to mean that for the first 30 seconds, the FCA valve is fully closed during startup?
Power is not applied until later when the ECM begins to limit and control fuel rail pressure.
Ya'll please correct me if my thinking is wrong on this. (IF I ONLY HAD A LOGIC DIAGRAM :banghead:

)
Quote:
The solenoid is inactive up to 30 seconds after the ignition switch is initially keyed to ON position to allow maximum fuel pressure to the fuel rail during cranking and start up. ECM assumes FCA valve control when CPS signal and rail pressure are within acceptable limits.

Again, there is not a long list of items that can affect rail pressure, they are:
1. FCA aka Fuel Quantity Solenoid
2. Cascade/Overflow Valve*
2. Fuel pressure regulator, on end of fuel rail,
3. A bad injector dumping way to much fuel killing fuel rail pressure.
4. The CP3 itself bad and not pumping up the fuel pressure
5. Inadequate fuel supply to the CP3 (fuel starvation)
*Regulates lubrication to internal parts of the injection pump and regulates the fuel pressure to the fuel quantity solenoid valve on the back of CP3 injection pump. Also, controls the amount of fuel being returning to the fuel tank via the fuel return line.

layback40 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:52 pm

WWDiesel wrote:

Dean, The CPS (crank position sensor) is notorious for going bad and not setting "ANY" DTCs (Diagnostic trouble codes)
Many owners have reported of this in the past on this forum. So just because you don't have a DTC for it, don't rule it out.

Layback40, I read and understand the operation description to mean that for the first 30 seconds, the FCA valve is fully closed during startup?
Power is not applied until later when the ECM begins to limit and control fuel rail pressure.
Ya'll please correct me if my thinking is wrong on this. (IF I ONLY HAD A LOGIC DIAGRAM :banghead:

)
Quote:
The solenoid is inactive up to 30 seconds after the ignition switch is initially keyed to ON position to allow maximum fuel pressure to the fuel rail during cranking and start up. ECM assumes FCA valve control when CPS signal and rail pressure are within acceptable limits.

Again, there is not a long list of items that can affect rail pressure, they are:
1. FCA aka Fuel Quantity Solenoid
2. Cascade/Overflow Valve*
2. Fuel pressure regulator, on end of fuel rail,
3. A bad injector dumping way to much fuel killing fuel rail pressure.
4. The CP3 itself bad and not pumping up the fuel pressure
5. Inadequate fuel supply to the CP3 (fuel starvation)
*Regulates lubrication to internal parts of the injection pump and regulates the fuel pressure to the fuel quantity solenoid valve on the back of CP3 injection pump. Also, controls the amount of fuel being returning to the fuel tank via the fuel return line.

As always WWDiesel your advice is excellent.
When it dries up a bit here, probably on the weekend, I will get back to it.
I am sure I speak for Dean as well as many in the KJ community, thanking you for your ongoing help.
There would be many more of these little cars in the breaker yards if it was not for your wisdom!

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

layback40 wrote:

WWDiesel wrote:

Layback40, I read and understand the operation description to mean that for the first 30 seconds, the FCA valve is fully closed during startup?
Power is not applied until later when the ECM begins to limit and control fuel rail pressure.
Ya'll please correct me if my thinking is wrong on this. (IF I ONLY HAD A LOGIC DIAGRAM :banghead:

)
Quote:
The solenoid is inactive up to 30 seconds after the ignition switch is initially keyed to ON position to allow maximum fuel pressure to the fuel rail during cranking and start up. ECM assumes FCA valve control when CPS signal and rail pressure are within acceptable limits.

Note: The solenoid has two wires from the ECM: C1-4 Supply (+5v), C1-52 Control (Ground).

All this discussion helps to bring clarity to the Fuel Quantity Solenoid circuit; and possibly go against some of my own words. We dinosaurs are so accustomed to applying power to something means activating it (knowing that ground is always connected at the other end). We are exactly wrong in this case. The correct understanding is having power available to the device at key ON, then applying a ground after 30 seconds - and not interrupting fuel flow for 30 seconds. So, even though the solenoid has +5v power (one text said +12v), it remains inactive until a ground Control is applied.

When I held the solenoid in my hand, it was un-plugged and un-powered, there was nothing was sticking out of the business end of it. I'll have to activate it, but I believe a prong will extend out when both power and ground are applied. The prong, when extended, will interrupt fuel flow.

So, when the ECM supplies a Pulsewitdh Modulated (PWM) Control to the solenoid, it is talking about a PWM Control to ground.

(We oldtimers are accustomed to activating a fuel solenoid to enable fuel to flow through the high pressure fuel distribution pump, and deactivating it to shut the engine off.)

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

WWDiesel wrote:

Dean, The CPS (crank position sensor) is notorious for going bad and not setting "ANY" DTCs (Diagnostic trouble codes). Many owners have reported of this in the past on this forum. So just because you don't have a DTC for it, don't rule it out.

Thanks WWDiesel,

This coming weekend I will examine and maybe change the Crankshaft Position Sensor. Maybe just a connector came apart.

I did test the Camshaft Position Sensor as I was testing other sensors atop the engine. It did respond to a Continuity tester by placing a wrench next to the sensor tip.

[Edit] 30 minutes later... I realize I may be able to test both the Camshaft and Crankshaft position sensors with a dwell meter. With everything hooked up, make connection on the Control wire for either sensor with the dwell meter. Crank or start the engine. The dwell meter should have some reading on it. If I remember the old ignition system well enough, the positive lead on the dwell meter will have to be connected to the Control wire on the sensor, the negative lead will have to be on a solid ground location.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:32 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

Note: The solenoid has two wires from the ECM: C1-4 Supply (+5v), C1-52 Control (Ground).

All this discussion helps to bring clarity to the Fuel Quantity Solenoid circuit; and possibly go against some of my own words. We dinosaurs are so accustomed to applying power to something means activating it (knowing that ground is always connected at the other end). We are exactly wrong in this case. The correct understanding is having power available to the device at key ON, then applying a ground after 30 seconds - and not interrupting fuel flow for 30 seconds. So, even though the solenoid has +5v power (one text said +12v), it remains inactive until a ground Control is applied.

When I held the solenoid in my hand, it was un-plugged and un-powered, there was nothing was sticking out of the business end of it. I'll have to activate it, but I believe a prong will extend out when both power and ground are applied. The prong, when extended, will interrupt fuel flow.

So, when the ECM supplies a Pulsewitdh Modulated (PWM) Control to the solenoid, it is talking about a PWM Control to ground.

(We oldtimers are accustomed to activating a fuel solenoid to enable fuel to flow through the high pressure fuel distribution pump, and deactivating it to shut the engine off.)

Dean.

I dont know about this prong sticking out idea.
When I put a Alan Key in the hole at the business end, I could grab a movable piston & pull it towards the end against a spring. It was clear that this must happen & looking in the little holes, they became open or closed. I think the hollow piston moving towards the business end is the motion that occurs.
There was no binding from varnish.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

WWDiesel wrote:

Dean, The CPS (crank position sensor) is notorious for going bad and not setting "ANY" DTCs (Diagnostic trouble codes). Many owners have reported of this in the past on this forum. So just because you don't have a DTC for it, don't rule it out.

Changed the Crankshaft Position Sensor today and the beast runs again !! Thanks the the help WWDiesel & layback40 !

None of the auto shops in town (NAPA, O'Reilly, AutoZone) had the part on the shelf so I used the one from the other engine. Each shop could get it from the mainland for $89 to $95 plus tax and shipping. I've seen them online for $25 to $35 and some with free shipping. Hmmm, there's a no brainer.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:24 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

Changed the Crankshaft Position Sensor today and the beast runs again !! Thanks the the help WWDiesel & layback40 !

None of the auto shops in town (NAPA, O'Reilly, AutoZone) had the part on the shelf so I used the one from the other engine. Each shop could get it from the mainland for $89 to $95 plus tax and shipping. I've seen them online for $25 to $35 and some with free shipping. Hmmm, there's a no brainer.

Dean.

Great to here!!
Just waiting for this to dry up here so I can get some voltages.
Not nice standing in mud & water working on it.
Enjoy your drive Dean!!

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:05 pm

Yahoo, it runs again! Glad that fixed it.
I bought my last CPS at AutoZone, they got it overnight at the local store, it is still running on it and that was 7 or 8 years ago.

Here are the part numbers I have file in case you need them?

Quote:

Crank Sensors:

• STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS Part # PC766 More Info {#5066882AA}
• Category: Crankshaft Position Sensor
• $54.99 RockAuto.com

• AIRTEX / WELLS Part # 5S7000 More Info {#5066882AA, SU8492}
• Category: Crankshaft Position Sensor
• $56.79 RockAuto.com

• MOPAR Part # 5066882AA
• Category: Crankshaft Position Sensor
• $61.79 RockAuto.com

• Autozone Duralast/Crankshaft Position Sensor (Bosch part in box)
• Part Number: SU8492

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

WWDiesel,

Thanks for sending me this text of FCA Troubleshooting procedure. I went through it and inserted a one-line bullet point on each step including the connector names and pin numbers. I attempted to send it back via PM but could not figure out how to include a .PDF file. It's not coming through well as a file from my images bill board.

https://i.ibb.co/L9dZCqR/2022-06-18-FCA-troubleshooting.jpg

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:20 pm

Got your PM,
emailed you

Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

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