Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Through all this time, my AntiSkid braking system is lighting the lamp on the dash. That is not keeping the beast off the road so I'm not too concerned with it. I think the brakes need a litter better bleed-job. However, just noticed an odd quirk associated with AntiSkid... when the light is lit, the odometer does not advance.

Sometimes the light doesn't come on for a mile or two and the odometer records those miles.

Nothing serious here, just a quirk I noticed.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:17 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

Through all this time, my AntiSkid braking system is lighting the lamp on the dash. That is not keeping the beast off the road so I'm not too concerned with it. I think the brakes need a litter better bleed-job. However, just noticed an odd quirk associated with AntiSkid... when the light is lit, the odometer does not advance.

Sometimes the light doesn't come on for a mile or two and the odometer records those miles.

Nothing serious here, just a quirk I noticed.

Dean.

These jeeps have a mind of their own & they dont like people trying to work them out.
They love lots of attention. Like an unwell child that is not sure what is wrong with them.
Lots of complaints (lights on & CEL's) not necessarily giving a direct indication of the real problem.
Didnt get to playing with mine yet. Might even change the CPS to see if that helps.
Dean,
Do you know if yours has a sensor on each back wheel or just one on the diff?
Have seen a lot about those going out.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:25 am

Dean,
Check the wiring/connector going to the speed sensor on top of the rear axle. Some have found a broken wire where it connects to the plug.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Thanks WWDiesel,

I can check that, but I doubt the rear wheel speed sensor will be the problem. The ECM displays wacky things when some malfunctions occur. While I don't remember the details, the ECM commands the speedometer to display some absurd speed when some malfunction occurs -- I don't remember the malfunction(s) that do that but I thought it had something to do with the alternator.

Based on that, I think the AntiSkid system failure causes the odometer to stop advancing. At least that is what I am seeing; when the AntiSkid light comes on, the odometer stops advancing.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

AntiSkid or not, I took off for work today in the beast. Went fine for 2 blocks when I started hearing loud and cantankerous clunks and clatters from the right front wheel area. Felt it in the steering wheel too. Went back home and got Ford Ranger.

Home again, examined the Jeep and found the right-side half shaft had slipped out of the differential axle. It was supposed to be locked into the differential axle with a snap ring.

The 2005 FSM only has meager description of installing it. No details of "...what do to in case bla bla bla happens..." Any suggestions out there?

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:03 pm

The half shaft should be held in place by a lock clip (Item #1) as pictured below.
If the lock clip is not damaged or broken, you should be able to push it back into the differential gear and it stay there.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Thanks for the help WWDiesel,

A new half shaft for the right side is on the way. Also plan to tighten up the shims for the front differential, but I'm not sure which differential we have. How can I tell?

Shim sets are not expensive, but once I'm in there I want to have the right parts in my hand.

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:32 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

Thanks for the help WWDiesel,
A new half shaft for the right side is on the way. Also plan to tighten up the shims for the front differential, but I'm not sure which differential we have. How can I tell?
Shim sets are not expensive, but once I'm in there I want to have the right parts in my hand.
Dean.

Just order a shim kit from for the 30A.
Randy's Ring & Pinion may have them, I would call. https://www.randysworldwide.com/

Quote:

The 27 spline Dana 30a, also know by Chrysler as the 186FIA, has always been the only front axle available in the Jeep Liberty. It's an IFS axle with an aluminum housing as indicated by the 'FI' and 'A'/'a' respectively. Essentially, it's an aluminum version of the Dana 30 with a longer pinion shaft. Unfortunately, the light weight aluminum construction makes it weaker than the D30 and the longer pinion shaft means pinion related D30 parts won't fit the 30A. The D30a requires a 1-1/8" socket to remove and install the pinion nut.

CRD Liberty's have a different front cradle that lowers and leftward shifts the differential to provide more clearance for the diesel engine.
The lowering results in better half-shaft constant velocity joint angles but too little clearance for a differential collar. The leftward shift requires different length half-shaft axles than those used in the gas Liberty. Due to the shorter left side half shaft CRD models cannot be lifted as high before the CV joints begin to bind.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Just order a shim kit from for the 30A. Randy's Ring & Pinion may have them, I would call. https://www.randysworldwide.com/

Thanks WWDiesel,

I called RandysWorld and ordered a Shim Kit. All the parts should be here in time for July 9, 10 weekend of maintenance. Even after talking with them, I'm not too happy with their website because the purchase went through without shipping charges. I'll hope to be contacted tomorrow to straighten it out.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Received all my parts (right side half axle, differential shim kit, gasket) for the front end. Plan to change these parts this weekend. The FSM says to set up the pinion/ring gear lash at 0.005" clearance. The local machinist guy says to set the clearance to 0.002" for used, smooth gears. I'm going to shoot for 0.002" clearance this time.

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:42 pm

0.002 is kinda tight for used gears; I would go with 0.003-0.004" :wink:

Have fun!

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Thanks WWDiesel,

I'll split the difference and aim for 0.0035". My dial indicator is not the best but I should be able to split a thousandth.

The front differential is usually just free wheeling, and only has to work while going slow. I'm hoping the tighter tolerances will be fine.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Got into the front differential today. Just by sight, I'm guessing there is about 0.03" backlash slop, judging from looking at rotating the pinion gear back & forth against the ring gear. My dial indicator has a magnetic base so it proved useless on the aluminum housing of the differential. However, holding it as steady as possible, I managed to measure a very rough 0.01" of backlash on the ring gear against the pinion gear. It was looking like a bit of a monkey & football routine so I didn't attempt to go any further. I'll set up tomorrow with a clamp of some sort and use the dial indicator correctly.

The case and ring gear assembly seems to be installed solidly (preload) with no side-to-side slop. Unlike the rear differential that had 1/4" of slop side-to-side. Now I'm surprised to find the front one installed solidly between the spacers.

To correct the gear backlash and maintain preload, I'll have to remove the spacer on one side (2) and install a thinner one. Also remove the spacer on the other side (4) and install a thicker one. Then re-check the backlash and preload. The book offers a solution of switching the spacers in hopes of the thinner one ending up in the (2) position. I hope to avoid adjusting the pinion at all. The shims in the kit are only a few thousandths thick; unlike the spacers (already installed) are about a full 1/8" thick. There don't seem to be any shims already installed.

The book also warns that removing the bearing can turn bad instantly due to dropping all the rollers. They suggest not even attempting to put them back because they will never end up in the right places again. They suggest replacing the bearings with new ones.

I did manage to pry against the spacer (2 above) and see some deflection of the housing. However, I cannot remove the spacer while prying on it - I'll have to use a spreader.

Adjust the nut to spread the legs of the spreader apart, thus opening up the housing a little.

It didn't take much effort on the pry bar to see 0.0005 or 0.008" deflection. I don't plan to copy this spreader exactly, but I'll rig up something.

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Fri Jul 08, 2022 1:38 pm

Just a thought,
If you actually have 0.010 backlash as you measured; guess you will know for sure once you use a clamp on base for the dial indicator.
And you have 0.005-0.008" side to side lateral movement on carrier/bearings.
Spread the case slightly, then add a 0.005" shim on the ring gear side of the carrier bearing and that would drop your backlash down to less than 0.005" and remove the excess on carrier preload? You may have to actually add some additional shims on both sides to get the carrier preload up to specifications.

I never been in a 30A differential, but I have rebuilt plenty of GM differentials and the carrier bearing rollers are in cages and won't fall out when you remove the carrier & bearing races unless they are extremely worn out in which case they would need to be replaced anyway. Just keep their races in their respective original positions, Left on Left, & Right on Right etc...

Dealing with the shims on each side is a PITA as some of them can be paper thin and must be sandwiched between thicker shims to keep everything in place when forcing the carrier back in the housing with the shim packs and new bearings on each side of the carrier under preload. We used to actually have to force the carrier back into the housing using wood blocks and a big hammer if the carrier preload was a little on the high side. :banghead:

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Found a method of using the magnetic base by using a 2-inch Beam Clamp from Lowe's. It clamps around the differential housing and provides a perfect mounting platform for my 2-inch magnetic base.

(This is a stock photo of a 1/4" beam clamp.)

It provides two surfaces to use a magnetic mount dial indicator.

Measured the backlash on the ring gear, with regard to slop against the pinion gear. I got a solid 0.012" rotation movement on one tooth. It is enough to make a clacking noise from the gears meeting. This is certainly one of the noise makers that started my entire post 4 years ago.

Checked the preloading on the bearings and that is fine. Didn't get any movement side-to-side before spreading the housing. (WWDiesel, somehow we got our details crossed yesterday) Checked the pinion shaft; it is perfect with no longitudinal (end-to-end) clearance.

I built a case spreader by using 4 UniStrut "L" brackets. These have 9/16" holes which accept a 1/2" threaded rod, and nuts at each end. The threaded rod is cut into 12" lengths which is slightly too long; I figured I could find a use for a footlong threaded rods later.

It worked perfectly as far as spreading the differential housing. I could nudge the spacer and extract it with my fingers. Unfortunately, the 2-hole "L" brackets are too short and won't allow the spacer to come all the way out. The spacer clears the bottom of the "L" bracket but hits the threaded rod.

I'll have to get the 3-hole "L" brackets and try again tomorrow. This will raise the threaded rods far enough to extract the spacer.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:35 am

CaptainDean wrote:

Found a method of using the magnetic base by using a 2-inch Beam Clamp from Lowe's. It clamps around the differential housing and provides a perfect mounting platform for my 2-inch magnetic base.

(This is a stock photo of a 1/4" beam clamp.)

It provides two surfaces to use a magnetic mount dial indicator.

Measured the backlash on the ring gear, with regard to slop against the pinion gear. I got a solid 0.012" rotation movement on one tooth. It is enough to make a clacking noise from the gears meeting. This is certainly one of the noise makers that started my entire post 4 years ago.

Checked the preloading on the bearings and that is fine. Didn't get any movement side-to-side before spreading the housing. (WWDiesel, somehow we got our details crossed yesterday) Checked the pinion shaft; it is perfect with no longitudinal (end-to-end) clearance.

I built a case spreader by using 4 UniStrut "L" brackets. These have 9/16" holes which accept a 1/2" threaded rod, and nuts at each end. The threaded rod is cut into 12" lengths which is slightly too long; I figured I could find a use for a footlong threaded rods later.

It worked perfectly as far as spreading the differential housing. I could nudge the spacer and extract it with my fingers. Unfortunately, the 2-hole "L" brackets are too short and won't allow the spacer to come all the way out. The spacer clears the bottom of the "L" bracket but hits the threaded rod.

I'll have to get the 3-hole "L" brackets and try again tomorrow. This will raise the threaded rods far enough to extract the spacer.

Dean.

Hi Dean,
Looking at your pics, makes me wonder if you could use use the 2 holes just lower down in the pic.
May need to turn your brackets around.
Probably a thick washer on each of the bolts/nuts would help distribute the load.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:47 am

Or build something similar to this? :idea:

All you would need in addition to what you already have would be a couple of pieces of flat bar stock with 2 holes bored in each of them.
I would actually place the mounting holes for the case further up the bars which would greatly compound the leverage force.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Thanks WWDiesel, [Edited heavily, please read again]

I thought of doing this for about 1 second, then abandoned the idea. It would mean buying more material, fabricating the new device. Instead, I noticed each of these case spreaders has only one point of purchase on the housing. So I just took one (the bottom) of my threaded rods out and readjusted a little. It worked fine. I was able to remove the spacers and measure them, one at a time.

Good luck is shining on me today. The two factory spacers were 0.005" different from each other, and located favorably to allow swapping sides. Switched the spacers from one side to the other and that made a little improvement. ...but not enough. When I wiggle the pinion gear, it still makes noise against the ring gear. Added a 0.003" shim and that helped more. The preload on the bearings is still within limits.

I'm taking a break to post my progress and express my excitement. :BANANA:

The kit has 17 shims ranging from 0.012" down to 0.003" There is (1) each 0.012". 0.011" shims, (2) each 0.010" shim, then (5) 0.006", (2) each 0.005", (1) 0.004", (5) 0.003" shims. I'll continue by replacing the 0.003" shim with a 0.006" shim. and check for backlash and preload again. If I can continue adding thicker shims I will, but I realize preload on the bearings will have a limit. I suspect that adding 0.006" will be the limit.

Measured the inch-pounds torque to rotate the ring gear assembly by using an open-end wrench socket on the 1/4" drive inch-pound torque wrench: 20-25 inch-pounds to break standing hysteresis, then free-wheeling after it gets moving. I'm a little concerned about that, but it is all dry right now. After a few thousand revolutions it may free-up.

This shows a socket on a ring gear bolt, but I'm turning the 3rd member with a 1/4" drive inch-pound torque wrench.

[Edit after a break] Added another 0.003" carrier bearing preload by replacing the .003" shim with the 0.006" shim. This tightened up the backlash clearance so this is only a tiny click heard by moving the pinion gear back & forth. I'm stopping there and calling it good for now. Certainly there are other noises coming from this 4X4 machine that will make the differential noise unimportant. Measured the clearance now to 0.006" movement on a tooth of the ring gear.

The third member assembly turns rather easily by hand, and driving it with the pinion shaft is very easy. Although I could not measure the pinion shaft turning with the 1/4" drive inch-pound torque wrench, I did compare holding a 14mm socket in my hand while turning it with the wrench. By hand I could only resist ~2 inch-pounds while holding the socket. The pinion shaft turns much easier than that, probably about 0.25 inch-pounds or less.

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:17 pm

Glad you got the spreader tool sorted out.

Sounds like you got the preload on the carrier bearings tightened up just right and reduced the backlash at the same time. Good job!!!
Book says carrier should be (3.9-6.6 in. lbs.) resistance to turning with the correct preload.
Did you measure the ring & gear backlash after all the shim changes/additions? What average did you end up with around the gear?

What about preload on the pinion bearings, they should have a small amount (15-25 in. lbs.) torque to rotate as well. Just sight resistance to turning by hand.
Book says the whole assembly should end up around (15-25 in. lbs.) + (3.9-6.6 in. lbs.) tot.

Used bearings will always be on the low side vs new ones, so if you end up with a total assembly torque to rotate value of a little over 20 in. lbs. you should be good to go.
I use a 1/4" drive in. lbs. torque wrench to test the rotational torque by adding a 1/4 to 3/8 to 1/2" adaptors to the pinion nut socket. (driveshaft disconnected)

While in there, I would also paint some of the teeth on the ring gear and check the contact pattern in both directions just because you are staring at it.
I always paint and check'em in both drive and coast just to make sure it is correct and there is not going to be a lot of noise or unnecessary wear.
Since all your pinion parts were already in place, yours will probably be a perfect pattern. :wink:

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Has anyone tried this 6000 lb car lift? It's only $89 and free shipping even to Hawaii. Gotta be a scam.

https://dogsworldz.us/products/AUTO-600 ... -0-0-0-0-0

I wish it were true, but it sounds too good to be true. The ad says "48-inch lifting height". At $89 I'd buy two if it were real. Doing jobs like this differential & half shaft change-out would be much easier if I didn't have to crawl under the vehicle, and crawl back out.

If someone else who's chalk-full-of-dough and doesn't mind throwing away $89 to test the purchasing would buy one, then I would buy one after someone else gets it successfully. If someone else did buy one successfully, and I then bought one successfully, then I'd pay back the person who risked it. (This would only work for 1 person)

The ad doesn't mention the dimensions other than lifting height. At that price, even a little 18" x 36" lifting table would be worth $89.

My wife ordered a 24" x 96" raised planter bed a while back that was cheaper than I could build it. It turned out to be a scam. We managed to get our money back because we acted before the item was "shipped". In that scam, a tiny box would get shipped fulfilling the legal requirements of the purchase.

Dean.

Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

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