Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Thanks WWDiesel,

I don't like IDPart's design of eliminating the Viscous Heater and the mechanical fan; I'm glad you picked up on the belt drive loss on the AC compressor. Here are two more drawings of the serpentine belt that is in my head...

I made a mistake when I bought IDParts Viscous Heater and Fan Delete Kit. I wish they would have displayed their kit with this image. It would have been much clearer.

Instead, I would offer mounting an smaller idler pulley on the top-inner Viscous Heater mounting bolt location. Similar to your own design, but this eliminates 90% of the original Viscous Heater footprint and maintains the drive 'grip' on the AC compressor and the Alternator. Part of my quest is to open up access to crowded areas, such as the Viscous Heater - Water Pump - Thermostat area. This plan, like yours, prevents the constriction around the belt tensioner that the IDParts plan creates. I would still have to buy a shorter serpentine belt, maybe 2" or 3" shorter than the original 113" length.

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Jul 01, 2023 4:39 pm

Some friendly advice Dean,
Possible problems with your design to consider using a single small pulley mounted to only the one single threaded boss on the engine
You will be putting all the belt load and tension strain on a single 12mm bolt and one single threaded boss on the engine. (shown in red in picture below)
To get the correct location for the pulley to be spaced out for proper belt alignment, you will have to space/bushing the pulley out from the boss about 1 1/2" from the face of the mounting boss to the back of bearing in the pulley. This is going to put a awful lot of radial load/strain on a single bolt due to the belt tension and loading!
This particular single boss location does not have a lot of support to it, and too much load could possibly cause it to crack and / or break off, which I would hate for this to happen to your engine.

*The factory even provided an extra brace/bracket to help support this one mounting bolt location for one of the two OEM viscous heater bolts.

For my design, I mimicked the exact design of the factory mounting of the viscous heater by using a 6061 High Tensile strength Billet Aluminum Flat Bar, to fully distribute the belt load and tension back to both mounting bolt location points just as the OEM mount and this also allows the reuse of the extra brace on the mounting boss at the engine. See picture

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Thank you WWDiesel,

Your concerns are not lost with me; thanks for mentioning it. I see your point of the upper Viscous Heater mounting location is minimal. In my attempt to clear out the area of the Viscous Heater, I will copy your mounting technique of using a thick aluminum bar (maybe 1/2" thick by 1-1/4" wide) but still use a smaller idler pulley. Notice the small red/yellow mounting hole on the bar.

I'm going to check out O'Reilly's Continental brand pulley number 50044. It matches my quest of a 70mm OD, 17mm ID, 5-groove idler pulley. However, after googling it, it may have a long standoff built onto it. I may have to shorten or replace the stand-off.

Thanks for your input WWDiesel.

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:42 pm

Keep it simple, please just let me send you one of my viscous heater delete kits. It is a very proven design. I have well over 100 of them in service now in the US and Canada.
No real need to reinvent the wheel or start experimenting with a new design! :lol:

layback40 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2023 3:45 am

WWDiesel wrote:

Keep it simple, please just let me send you one of my viscous heater delete kits. It is a very proven design. I have well over 100 of them in service now in the US and Canada.
No real need to reinvent the wheel or start experimenting with a new design! :lol:

WWD,
It sounds like Dean, like all engineers, wants to invent his own. Even if you sent him one for free, he would probably want to fit his own!
Like others, I am watching this all, waiting to see if after the wheel is re-invented, we also end up with a new design for a mouse trap!
Best wishes to both of you!

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jul 02, 2023 12:01 pm

layback40 wrote:

WWD,
It sounds like Dean, like all engineers, wants to invent his own. Even if you sent him one for free, he would probably want to fit his own!
Like others, I am watching this all, waiting to see if after the wheel is re-invented, we also end up with a new design for a mouse trap!
Best wishes to both of you!

True; just trying to be of help and save him some time, headaches, money, and possible failure! :wink:

Experimentation comes at a cost. $$
If it ain't broke, don't fix it! :rockon:

But to each his own, I digress.... :5SHOTS:

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

CaptainDean wrote:

Wow, it's been a month already. Been chasing a problem about the beast going into Limp-in mode and tried a couple things...

I've never liked fan clutches and never understood what good they do. 50 years ago I changed a Datsun clutch fan to a mechanical fan and drove away happy.

Now I've done it with this Jeep and I'll see what happens.

Drilled 4 pilot holes through the 4 clutch fan mounting bolt holes and avoided damaging the threads.

The drill went through the clutch assembly and the clutch disk.

Flipped the clutch assembly over and drilled 4 clearance holes for longer bolts to go through the clutch housing and the clutch disk. Ran a tap through the holes just to clean them up.

Got some longer bolts (5/16-18x1" NC) and ran them in through the clutch housing and the clutch disk.

Reinstalled the fan onto the fan clutch assembly which is now a pure mechanical fan. All seems fine so far.

If this doesn't fix it, then I will have to check the turbocharger waste gate. It could be leaking...

Dean.

Thought I had the Limp-in mode handled by locking up the fan clutch, thus increasing air flow. Yesterday it happened again. Weather was 90° and 78% which was similar to previous times. I'm starting to think the Ambient Temperature sensor is failing. Found it in the Field Service Manual, and it's located in front of the radiator near the center of the vehicle.

I'll tackle this during the week or next weekend.

Dean.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jul 16, 2023 5:50 pm

You need to ditch that metal fan and get the 11 blade plastic one; it does a much better job of moving tons more air flow through the radiator stack. Even help improve the AC performance greatly! :wink:

The ambient air sensor is located kinda to the side behind the grill. Very easy to find!

layback40 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 16, 2023 8:27 pm

CaptainDean wrote:

Dean.

Thought I had the Limp-in mode handled by locking up the fan clutch, thus increasing air flow. Yesterday it happened again. Weather was 90° and 78% which was similar to previous times. I'm starting to think the Ambient Temperature sensor is failing. Found it in the Field Service Manual, and it's located in front of the radiator near the center of the vehicle.

I'll tackle this during the week or next weekend.

Dean.[/quote]
That sensor will be a simple thermistor (RTD).
If you google RTD thermistors, the values in that table should allow you to work out the exact one.
You could get a new one for cheap (couple of $) at your local electronics store.
You can work out how to open up the actual one on your jeep & put the new one in. They normally fail open circuit.
I have replaced both temp sensor thermistors in the cooling system on my XJ diesel. Was going to take a month for genuine ones to get here & very expensive. Just ground the folded over bit off & pulled the thermistor out, attached the new one to the plug pins.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

WWDiesel wrote:

You need to ditch that metal fan and get the 11 blade plastic one; it does a much better job of moving tons more air flow through the radiator stack. Even help improve the AC performance greatly! :wink:

The ambient air sensor is located kinda to the side behind the grill. Very easy to find!

Found the Ambient Temperature Sensor, thank you WWDiesel. Swapped it out with a new one. See if it goes into Limp-in mode again. Of course the hot weather is over for now. Summer is just beginning so I'm certain we'll have another. :oops:

I will order the GM 11-blade fan.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 10, 2023 6:19 am

Hey Dean! I hope you are not affected by the fires over your way!
Please stay safe!

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:46 pm

layback40 wrote:

Hey Dean! I hope you are not affected by the fires over your way!
Please stay safe!

X2. Pics I saw were pretty ugly.

Sent from my SM-S906W using Tapatalk

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Thanks WoverineFW, layback40, and others, for thinking of me. I am fortunately unharmed by the winds and wild fires.

Lahaina Maui is only a memory now, being swept off the face of the Earth from a fire storm. :dizzy:

This was an unfortunate combination of summer dryness, high winds from the outskirts of Hurricane Dora, and some unlucky sparks or flames. Some old tinderbox buildings in Lahaina dated to the early 1800s.

On the other side, I am recovering from my own personal health storm. Just got out of the hospital and ICU after a bout with Diabetic Ketoacidosis -- way too high blood sugar. Doctors & nurses did their thing very well and I'm back home. Just have to shake and UTI, highly enlarged prostate, and regaining my strength.

Dean.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

The Jeep went into Limp-in mode again last week, but not such dismal performance as previous Limp-in occurrences. Got code P0090 which suggested a fuel rail pressure problem.

Reset the codes and reseated the connectors on the Fuel Pressure Solenoid and the Fuel Pressure Sender. That seemed to take care of it. Hmmm. I'm waiting for it to come back, but so far - so good.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Fri Sep 15, 2023 7:32 am

Hey Dean, you may wish to have a read of
viewtopic.php?t=83051

You may have contamination in the cascade valve or the solenoid.
Maybe just a loose connection on the plug.

CaptainDean · **Joined:** Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am **Posts:** 694

Thanks layack40,

I did see that write-up (viewtopic.php?t=83051) that you shared. It got me going in the right direction for troubleshooting. Thanks.

My experience is just like his, whereas a little messing around has made the problem go away. It may not really be gone but the Jeep is running normally again. When it has come back, clearing the code on the spot takes care of the Limp-in condition until the next occurrence.

Dean.

layback40 · **Posted:** Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:24 pm

Hi Dean,
Hope your health is improving!

Have you ever had a look at the signal going to the solenoid at the end of the rail with a CRO? Or the solenoid on the CP3?
I have no signal showing on the rail (quality) solenoid at idle. If I unplug the solenoid the engine cuts out. I am using a proper CRO.
I have seen a good app that has a CRO through the audio socket on a smart phone.
I remember you played with the rail solenoid once.
There is a PDF about the fuel system that shows a signal on a screen of a DBR scanner.
WW may wish to comment.
I am still having trouble with the fuel system on mine.
Thinking there may be an issue with the ECU. Probably the pulse signals is switched by a FET in there.
It looked like you took the cover off your original ECU. The sealant on mine has it stuck on very tight.
Any comments always appreciated.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:08 am

Quote:

Fuel Pressure Solenoid
aka, Fuel Rail Pressure Control Valve at end of fuel rail
Supply Voltage @ Sensor 12v

Make sure you have voltage on the brown/orange wire at the connector.

Check the pins on the C1 connector to the ECM.
PIN: #4 K369 16BR/OR FUEL PRESSURE SOLENOID SUPPLY (12V)
PIN: #52 K370 16BR FUEL PRESSURE SOLENOID CONTROL (Signal)

layback40 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:18 am

WWDiesel wrote:

Quote:

Fuel Pressure Solenoid
aka, Fuel Rail Pressure Control Valve at end of fuel rail
Supply Voltage @ Sensor 12v

Make sure you have voltage on the brown/orange wire at the connector.

Check the pins on the C1 connector to the ECM.
PIN: #4 K369 16BR/OR FUEL PRESSURE SOLENOID SUPPLY (12V)
PIN: #52 K370 16BR FUEL PRESSURE SOLENOID CONTROL (Signal)

The solenoids have 2 wires.
Are you saying that the switching is on the negative (ground) side to give the pulse? I think I read that somewhere.
This would mean that there would be 12V on one of the wires & the other is switched to ground (negative).
What I see on the CRO is a flat line when the engine is running for the 2 wires suggesting no pulsing or voltage difference.
I will check to make sure one of the wires (brown/orange) has 12v compared with ground & the other (brown) is open. I will do this with it unplugged.
Its easier to test near the solenoid & if there is nothing there I will then check back at C1 in case there is a lead problem.
The engine runs but if I put my foot on the accelerator too far it dies. If I only use a tiny bit of throttle the revs can slowly be increased to say 1500rpm. The jeep is just drivable like this.
Thanks for your enduring help WW !

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:02 pm

Do you have any codes set or stored relating to fuel pressure?

Maybe some of this will be of some help to you?
It explains how this device operates. If you are having low fuel rail pressure problems, it can be caused by quite a few different things including the fuel rail pressure sensor, fuel rail pressure solenoid, Cascade overflow valve on top of CP3, and Fuel Quantity Solenoid on back of CP3 injection pump.
Lack of adequate fuel flow to the CP3 can also cause improper fuel rail pressure. If the CP3 cannot get the required amount of fuel, it cannot build the fuel rail pressure as needed.
A bad fuel injector,leaking, can also cause low pressure problems.
Everything thing must be ruled out one at a time to find the problem. Either you are not getting enough fuel or something is dumping (losing) the fuel rail pressure. It could also be an electronic control issue causing it? This is not an easy one to diagnose unfortunately! :cry:

Quote:

Fuel Rail Pressure Too Low

For a test: You could disconnect the hose from the fuel return line plastic block and see how much fuel is being returned to the fuel tank. If it is a lot of fuel, then you must determine by disconnecting each item one at a time and find out if it is coming from the fuel pressure solenoid, the CP3, or a fuel injector.

Watch this video testing the Fuel Rail Pressure Solenoid (regulator): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqW1dNp ... Automotive

Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking

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