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Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87478		 Page 7 of 55
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
GordnadoCRD wrote:
. . . . . wow. :dizzy: You're buying OEM head bolts? :shock: If they haven't already been bought, I'll send you a new set unopened. I put mine on with ARP studs. I've never found a TTY application that I could trust with this type of engine. Not just VM, but pretty much all auto turbo-diesels. But if that's what you want to use, you can have mine if you want them. Let me know. Sounds like you need a :5SHOTS: break, or hit the range with a few boxes of whatever you like to shoot. :goink: I know I would.

I know what "OEM" is, and I easily found "ARP" on line, but what is "TTY" other than telephone communication for deaf people?

I did not find the 2.8L engine studs at ARP so I could not establish their value. What do you suggest? ...and can you accept payments through PayPal or other electronic means?

Dean.
Author:  joe_ [ Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
CaptainDean wrote:
what is "TTY" other than telephone communication for deaf people?
Torque To Yield. Those are the type of bolts that are tightened until they stretch (one-time use). They're commonly used for head bolts and I think connecting rod caps and stuff like that.

CaptainDean wrote:
I did not find the 2.8L engine studs at ARP so I could not establish their value. What do you suggest?
ARP doesn't have an official set for this engine, but there are some intended for a VW TDI that work. However the TDI has 10 head bolts and R428 has 18, so two of the TDI kits are needed. IDParts and Sasquatch Motorsports both carry them as sets of 20 studs.
https://www.idparts.com/arp-head-stud-kit-liberty-crd-p-4044.html
https://shop.sasquatchparts.com/products/2005-2006-jeep-liberty-crd-arp-head-studs/
The general consensus for torque values is 120 ft-lb for the outer rows and 130ft-lb for the inner rows.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
TTY = Torque To Yield.

Typically, torqued to (x) value, then (for example) turn them all 1/2 turn.
Sometimes followed by running the engine to full temperature or for (x) miles, then turning (for example) an additional 1/4 turn.

Due to random inconsistencies of thread friction, of metallurgical or machining variation, the actual clamping force has a relatively high variation compared to precision studs such as ARP.

Sasquatch Parts and IDParts both carry the ones that work for us. It's actually 2 sets of VW TDI studs. They use 10 headbolts, we have 18, so it takes 2 sets.

If you still want the OEM bolts, let me know. I'll send them.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Thanks GordnadoCRD,

This morning (after the incoming missile alert) I opened an account at a real bank. They assured me the international money transfer can be accomplished. The real bank has connections through CitiBank, then to all points around the globe.

At this point, I am going to keep the invoice and transaction as-is. I've never had any troubles with head bolts and these are the yielding kind. (Thanks for the explanation: Torque To Yield) I must have heard that before; the Cummins 5.9 has yielding bolts (8 years ago) and GMC Sonoma's engine (20 years ago) did too. It's simply been too long between exposure to the term for me to remember it.

Your offer is certainly appreciated, but I will pass this time. They certainly sound like superior studs to the OEM bolts. If you think I am passing an important offer, then go ahead and send them. I can at least pay USPS Priority mailing costs.

Dean.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
I normally would not be adamant about this as I always try to offer different options when available and you seem to have listened to advice before, but in this case, I will step out on that proverbial limb!
People are trying to advise you to use the ARP head studs due to their advanced metallurgical holding ability rather than the old OEM TTY bolts!
They have proven to be a much better and superior head fasteners as opposed to the OEM TTY bolts as many are running them currently with great results.
I realize you are in pretty deep financially at this point, but in this case like the exhaust valves it would be a prudent investment for the long term to opp for the ARP studs.
The last thing you need at this point would be the new head gasket to start leaking shortly after assembly due to one of the TTY bolts not holding the correct pressure or clamping force on the gasket! :roll:
But as in all cases, it is your final decision alone at the end of the day based on knowledge and available funds....
:juggle:

:SOMBRERO:
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Thanks WWDiesel,

Since you crept out onto that proverbial limb for me, I will also extend the proverbial olive branch back.

GordnadoCRD: Definitely go ahead and send the ARP studs. I will cover the USPS Postage and the cost of the bolts as it seems this path is highly recommended. Out on the ARP website, the 2.8L VM engine was no longer offered, but prices of other 4-cylinder engine bolts were roughly $66. Since I have not actually wired the funds yet, I still have time to change the invoice and get a new amount. I will PM my address and other pertinent details to you.

Thanks for the nudging WWDiesel. Finances are not unlimited, but I can afford to fix this Jeep. It is prudent to take the wise route, although not wise for me to go gang busters all the way. I like to have a "man's vehicle" but I don't treat it like a kid's toy.

Dean.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Just to clear this up..
What I used on mine are the ARP studs.
What I have unused, and free to anyone who wants them, (shipping costs only), are the OEM TTY bolts.
I saw that you had the oem head bolts on your list of things to order.
They are not the superior option, but I thought if that's what you wanted, there is no reason for you to buy them when I could send you an unused set still in original packaging.

THE ARP SET YOU WOULD USE (X2) is 204-4706. They are available from both Sasquatch Parts and IDParts (as 2-set package), and many other places. Usually singular... Sometimes on sale....

Direct from ARP is probably not the way to go. They don't generally undercut their dealer customers, but their price through Amazon is nearly competitive.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
GordnadoCRD wrote:
Just to clear this up.. What I used on mine are the ARP studs. What I have is unused, and free to anyone who wants them, (shipping costs only), are the OEM TTY bolts. I saw that you had the oem head bolts on your list of things to order. They are not the superior option, but I thought if that's what you wanted, there is no reason for you to buy them when I could send you an unused set still in original packaging.

Thanks for clearing this up. I will definitely take you up on your offer of the OEM TTY bolts. I already sent VM Diesel Specialist a note to remove the bolts from my order. Thank you Gordon.

I see the actual price of studs for our engine is in the $360 range, not the $66 area that I surmised from the ARP website for other models.

WWDiesel: I am certain you and GordnadoCRD are correct in that studs are superior to bolts. Do you think I am making a mistake using the OEM bolts? How much of a risk am I taking by using TTY bolts? What is the rough percentage of failure due to TTY bolts failing?

If the price of studs was similar to bolts, then it would be a no-brainer to use studs. However, when the difference is $60 to $360, then I have to make sure it is truly worthwhile. Certainly you went out on a limb for a good reason. Are the ARP studs non-TTY? I can see the basic fault to TTY in that the torque is enough to enter the range of stressing the bolt material to failure. Are there other brands of studs that are not 6x the price of bolts, yet do a superior job to OEM bolts?

BTW, I did order new exhaust valves for the remaining cylinders. An extra $115 was a small price to pay for peace of mind.

'Thanks' to everyone for all the information and guidance given in this forum. WWDiesel, this was a tough message to send questioning your suggestion. Mainly I need more information to justify spending an extra $300. [knees shaking]

Dean.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
The ARP studs are a very strong Chromoly alloy.

They are not TTY, they are torqued in stages to a specific torque value.
That said, when torqued there will be some elastic stretch to maintain the needed pressure, but it's not a part of the torque procedure.

TTY isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just badly used in this application.
As Joe mentioned, performance engine builders / blueprinters prefer to torque connecting rod bolts until they have stretched to a specific length rather than a torque value. In this case it works because they can get to both ends of the bolt and measure the precise length. In our case, it's a blind guess, but it's close enough that VMM makes hundreds of thousands of these things and ships them all out that way. In the UK and European theatre, this engine has a fantastic reputation, which would indicate some of the reason for the domestic failures would be caused by other things, and the possibilities are many.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
It is sorta like the exhaust valves quandary, spend the monies now to lessen any chances of future failures down the road, or don't spend the monies and bear the risk of a possible future failure which could be catastrophic in the case of a broken valve.

Similar analogy as to the TTY head bolts versus the ARP head studs although consequences may not be quite as severe, nevertheless if a failure were to occur, it would at a minimum require pulling the intake & valve cover along with the timing belt etc... to replace all the head bolts with ARP studs, or worse case require pulling the head again. :roll:

My philosophy is to do it right the first time if at all possible even if it cost a little more up front to insure against a possible preventable failure.
We know the TTY bolts can cause problems as some have reported on LOST even after performing a head gasket job and replacing them.
Don't believe I have ever read of anyone posting a leaking HG due to a failed ARP stud?

Bottom line, it's all about risk and how much you are willing to assume! Remember, we are all our own warranty providers on these vehicles...
Make your own decision, but make the best decision based on the available information versus the risk factor.... :juggle:

Best of luck,

:SOMBRERO:
Author:  CaptainDean [ Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Finally got the wire transfer ordered, with high confidence it will all go correctly from First Hawaiian Bank, through Citibank, to Great Brittan, Chesterfield branch of Natwest Bank, and finally to The V.M. Specialist.

Their parts should ship out Monday or Tuesday.

Today the remainder of the exhaust valves arrived.

And GordnadoCRD sent out the OEM TTY head bolts.

Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
While waiting for parts, I plan to pump all the fuel out of the tank to ensure all the water is gone. I really-really don't want to overhaul this bugger again right away.

Is the internal fuel pump robust enough to use it to pump the tank dry? I probably have a half tank left.

Dean.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
If it is an in-tank pump, it is plenty robust enough! It normally runs all the time anyway when the engine is running!
Just do not run it dry too long, fuel is what lubricates it... :roll:
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Thanks WWDiesel,

It is an in-tank pump. Good to know is will be strong enough to pump the fuel out without damaging it. That is good advise, I will certainly monitor it closely so it does not run while dry.

Checked out the wiring schematics. I am hoping it will be easy to access one half of connector C100 at the end of the dashboard. This will be my task tomorrow (Sunday).

Dean.

PS. The head bolts from GordnadoCRD arrived in excellent condition. I sent off a PayPal payment and thanks.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Simplest way would be to jumper it in the Power Distribution Panel under the hood!
Remove the Fuel Pump Relay and either apply 12v from + of battery to terminal 87 with a jumper wire, or simply jumper terminal 30 to terminal 87 in the relay cavity; this will run the fuel pump in the tank continuously until you remove the jumper.

Again, don't run it dry over 30 seconds or so!

Image
Author:  CaptainDean [ Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Thanks for the information WWDiesel. I did get that far on my own through the Jeep KJ Service Manual.PDF

I had every intention of getting this done today, but lack of preparations allowed the sun to go down first. No collection of gas cans, battery nearly dead, a remote starter button in flaky shape, my interest being diverted to other things, making a trip to the dump, and learning how to apply for Medicare. I did find the Fuel Priming Relay under the hood and pin 87, but not the Fuel Pump Relay. Coupled with all the above, I did not pump any fuel today. I'm half tempted to call-in Well to work tomorrow. I might just have an eye problem, "...I just can't see coming in..."

I did, however, get the engine compartment wire bundles re-wrapped. Some areas had the protective plastic sheath melted away by the EGR pipe, and some sheaths were bent too many times. I wrapped the entire main bundles in Electrician's Phase Tape (white) two layers thick. I never liked looking at a black engine, and black wire bundles, under the shade of the hood.

The battery is on the charger. Finished off a bottle of wine with only a half glass remaining, and supplemented it with a shot of Vodka.

Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Planning to order the Weeks adapter plate to put in place of the EGR Variable Flow Valve (wrong name) but I know I'll need a longer hose, or an extension piece. I cannot see any reason to replace the stock cast Aluminum elbow. What problems will I run into?

Image

Dean.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Because it's already apart, you will run into very little problem, particularly with the piece you pictured.

The Flow Control Valve, and the rest of it are all easy peasy with the cam housing / intake manifold removed. If you try to do it with the engine all together and installed, that little piece you pictured requires some very unnatural body flexation to get to all 4 mounts, both to remove the old, and install the new. Once done, it makes it a breeze to work on starter, on glow plugs, on fuel injection, etc.

I've had to pull that CAC to engine hose many many times for many reasons. Once installed and oriented correctly, it's easiest to remove the clamp at the intercooler, and the clamp holding the aluminum Weeks elbow to the adapter that goes on that piece you have pictured, and pull the entire assembly as one piece. Easy out, easy in, no need to bother with all the tweaking and twerking trying to get the elbow and CAC hose aligned correctly, and clamped so they don't rub on things, leak, or blow apart. Only 2 clamps to worry about.

edit: Use T-bar clamps. Buy them if you need to. Trust me, the bit of extra cost is absolutely worth it. Also, this is one place you will want to use forethought regarding clamp orientation. Once everything is together, you will have much less room to access the clamps, so check them when you drop the engine in. It will be even harder to make changes once you get the front end bits bolted back in. Leave the alternator out until you have made sure you can access the elbow clamp with the battery tray in.
Author:  casm [ Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
CaptainDean: please check your PMs. Thanks.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
GordnadoCRD wrote:
The Flow Control Valve, and the rest of it are all easy peasy with the cam housing / intake manifold removed. If you try to do it with the engine all together and installed, that little piece you pictured requires some very unnatural body flexation to get to all 4 mounts, both to remove the old, and install the new. Once done, it makes it a breeze to work on starter, on glow plugs, on fuel injection, etc.

I've had to pull that CAC to engine hose many many times for many reasons. Once installed and oriented correctly, it's easiest to remove the clamp at the intercooler, and the clamp holding the aluminum Weeks elbow to the adapter that goes on that piece you have pictured, and pull the entire assembly as one piece. Easy out, easy in, no need to bother with all the tweaking and twerking trying to get the elbow and CAC hose aligned correctly, and clamped so they don't rub on things, leak, or blow apart. Only 2 clamps to worry about.

edit: Use T-bar clamps. Buy them if you need to. Trust me, the bit of extra cost is absolutely worth it. Also, this is one place you will want to use forethought regarding clamp orientation. Once everything is together, you will have much less room to access the clamps, so check them when you drop the engine in. It will be even harder to make changes once you get the front end bits bolted back in. Leave the alternator out until you have made sure you can access the elbow clamp with the battery tray in.

Thanks GordnadoCRD,

I seem to have a mental block for the name of the Flow Control Valve (FCV). Even though I write it myself, it probably still won't stick. So I ask forgiveness now for all my past and future misnomers.

Does anyone have a picture of the Weeks kit installed? I'm thinking I can use the factory elbow and simply install the 'Weeks welded 4-bolt flange and hose connection' directly onto the factory elbow. Will that work? I may have to add an extension to the original hose from the Intecooler to the original elbow to bypass the FCV.

Someone, please straighten me out.

Dean.

BTW, what does CAC mean. Seems like it's the same hose from the Intercooler to the Intake.
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