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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:12 am 
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Installed all 4 pistons but have some reservations. Pistons 1, 2, and 4 are original and in good shape. Piston 3 is new and slightly different than the others.

There was quite a bit of discussion about having one piston of a lighter weight and causing vibration in the engine. I don't remember if the vibration was the issue or the possibility of premature wear on the bearings being the issue. Anybody remember this?


Piston 1 TDC
Image

Piston 2 TDC
Image

New piston 3 TDC
Image

Piston 4 TDC
Image

I never weighed the pistons and now I'm wishing I had. I believe the new #3 piston is a lighter piston than the others. The piston top oil cooling nozzle is farther away from #3 than the others.

Piston #1 oil cooling nozzle with piston at BDC
Image

Piston #2 oil cooling nozzle with piston at BDC
Image

New piston #3 oil cooling nozzle with piston at BDC. A little difficult to see, but the opening in the piston is farther away than the others.
Image

Piston #4 oil cooling nozzle with piston at BDC
Image


Dean.

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2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


Last edited by CaptainDean on Tue May 29, 2018 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 2:23 am 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
To take them out and weigh them, would it really cost that much time vs risk of engine failure with great imbalance?
Besides, you don't want to start separating pistons from rods unless one complete assembly is beyond balance tolerance.

From your pics I can see no significant difference other than lacking the flame pattern of the used slugs.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:49 am 
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Oops!

Sorry GordnadoCRD, I goofed on the second set of 4 pictures (8 total). Take a look again to see the bottom side of the pistons.

Dean.

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2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 6:13 am 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
I see what you mean now.

I don't know if that's critical or not, but would probably be worthwhile to send the pics and question to VM Specialists. Maybe there's early/late versions of the oiler pipe?

I kind of think though, that with warmed up oil at 50-100psi, that's gotta be a pretty serious stream coming out of those pipes.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:44 am 
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Do the numbers engraved on the tops of the pistons add any relevance to the issue?
no.s' 1, 2, & 4 have 2094F on the top and no. 3 has 2098F.
Maybe VM Specialists could shed some light on what these numbers mean?
But that big difference on that no. 3 underside sure looks like it is a different casting than the others. :shock:

I would not go any further with assembly until this issue is resolved. An imbalanced engine will self destruct and we already know how bad these engines shake already! :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:38 am 
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Took some more pictures and one came out good. I'll see if I can grab a shot of another piston with the same angle.

Image

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Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 12:11 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
That doesn't look so bad.

Consider that it's not a timed squirt, but a constant stream that's being sprayed into that cooling portal, and I doubt the difference matters much, unless, like you say, if there is a significant difference in mass.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:50 am 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
That doesn't look so bad.

Consider that it's not a timed squirt, but a constant stream that's being sprayed into that cooling portal, and I doubt the difference matters much, unless, like you say, if there is a significant difference in mass.
I don't think he's concerned with differences the oil nozzle-to-piston gap creating piston oiling/cooling problems, but more that it's revealing a difference in vertical height between the old and new pistons, which could indicate a difference in mass between the old and new pistons.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:04 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Do the numbers engraved on the tops of the pistons add any relevance to the issue?
no.s' 1, 2, & 4 have 2094F on the top and no. 3 has 2098F.
I think that's the end of the part number. Searching around, it looks like the part number for the new style pistons is 10252098F, and therefore the old ones are most likely 10252094F (that number brings up some search results, but most are not in English).


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:07 pm 
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joe_ wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
Do the numbers engraved on the tops of the pistons add any relevance to the issue?
no.s' 1, 2, & 4 have 2094F on the top and no. 3 has 2098F.
I think that's the end of the part number. Searching around, it looks like the part number for the new style pistons is 10252098F, and therefore the old ones are most likely 10252094F (that number brings up some search results, but most are not in English).

So if they are different part numbers, they could very well be different weights and I think I remember reading the newer ones use different piston rings.... :banghead:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:24 pm 
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Took out two pistons today, one new, one old, and weighed them. Old ones are 37 grams heavier than the new one; this is just the pistons & rings, no wrist pin, no connecting rod & cap, no bushings or bearings, no bolts. 38 grams is the weight of one tiny hand file plus a small adjusting screwdriver.

Old piston & rings = 837 grams
Image

New piston & rings = 800 grams
Image

Just for reference, 37 grams is roughly one ounce.
Image

I'm going to put these pistons back in and assure the height is the same as the old pistons. That would be a final "gotcha" if new vs old pistons made different compression.

Dean.

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2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:07 pm 
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Here is an up skirt shot showing the difference in architecture between the old and new pistons.

Image

Dean.

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2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:06 pm 
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While considering my options today, I realized one option is to have the old pistons shaved down to the same weight as the new one. I'll check into that on Monday. Machinists are not a lush commodity here in Kona.

Dean.

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2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:08 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
joe_ wrote:
GordnadoCRD wrote:
I doubt the difference matters much, unless, like you say, if there is a significant difference in mass.
I don't think he's concerned with differences the oil nozzle-to-piston gap creating piston oiling/cooling problems, but more that it's revealing a difference in vertical height between the old and new pistons, which could indicate a difference in mass between the old and new pistons.

That's definitely significant! Glad you pulled them back out and checked!

Have you gotten in touch with VM Specialists yet or do they not work weekends?

Piston-wise, that is a boatload of weight... probably too much to balance by grinding away at the old one. However, if 3&4 match mass and 1&2 match mass, it would consider it's self balanced since the pistons travel opposing directions in parallel pathways, and not in a circle.


EDIT: Then again, looking at your comparison picture, the skirt corners, and pin boss corners on the old ones would add up, but don't know if it's enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:36 am 
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Thanks GordnadoCRD,

I'm glad you acknowledged that 38g is a boatload of weight difference. I did not have a feel for the amount of imbalance that might be allowable.

I watched some University of YouTube videos on Ghetto piston balancing. Some of the ideas can work for me and some cannot. One method of drilling divots in the inside top of the piston crown is too risky for me because the piston crown is hollow.

A method that can work is drilling divots into the skirt, especially in non-critical areas - and the same divots on each side of the piston. I can limit the depth on my drill press so making mistakes is less likely.

Another method, although a little out-of-the-box is to shave the top end of the matching connecting rod. Con rods weigh 1014-1018g so taking 38g from them is a possible happy answer. I could even take half of the 38g from the piston and half from the con rod top. ...or even 10g from the piston and 28g from the rod top.

Dean.

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2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:13 am 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
That is one workable solution. All the mass reduction is in the same reciprocating assembled area. In truth, it's probably better, as it won't affect the original piston balance above/below the pin centerline.

Doing 3 exactly alike would be the most difficult part, especially since you don't have any extras to practice on.

I'd definitely avoid grinding or drilling anything until VM specialists has a chance to make it right. Having 3 shaved and 1 unshaven con rod is definitely unconventional.

It shouldn't make any odd effect with the rotating balance mechanism since none of the mass change is rotational.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:03 am 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
Doing 3 exactly alike would be the most difficult part, especially since you don't have any extras to practice on.

I'd definitely avoid grinding or drilling anything until VM specialists has a chance to make it right.

I do still have the original piston that sucked a valve. It can be the Guinea Pigston to find out how much a 1/16", 1/8" and 1/4" hole or divot will equate in grams. The piston also has the cut-away in the skirt for clearance for the oil nozzle. It could be made larger as necessary.

I have four additional connecting rods to experiment with.

It will be interesting to find out what VM Specialists has to say.

Dean.

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2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:20 am 
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Hi Dean,

I don't mean to hijack your thread...

It's been awhile since I was last on here, but I was reading your story and realized that you live on the same island as me and on the same side. I live in South Kona, but am frequently in town.

Also, I googled your name and found an article from when you were hired at NELHA, I used to work for Alex at Nan Inc. Tell him his old project engineer, Jon says hello!

If you ever need a spare set of hands, just holler, I grew up on a farm in Nebraska with a machinist father and I'm always willing to learn more about our engine.

Sent you a PM too.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:51 am 
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Dean, I would be very sceptical of shaving the three pistons to lower their weight.
Removing a whole ounce of metal is a lot of metal and may weaken the pistons and that is certainly not what you want to do. :banghead:
Still curious, were the piston ring lands on the lighter weight piston the same size as the other three?

Best Options:
Find a piston to match the other three
or
purchase three pistons to match the newer one. :juggle:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:47 pm 
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There's a free liberty CRD on Craigslist at the moment, as well as one listed for $500... I think they may be one and the same, given that the description I got when I enquired about the free one, matches the photos in the $500 listing.

Looks to me like the front control arm failed and the owner parked it. That may well be your best source of parts, but you'd have to dismantle an engine to get at them.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

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