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Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87478		 Page 11 of 55
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Wow. Wow. Wow. Another LOST member close by! And a free CRD Liberty!

I found this vehicle on Craigslist and sent a message.

Waiting, waiting, waiting...
Author:  JieselDeep [ Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Hi Dean, shoot me a PM with your email address, and I'll send you the information that he sent me already.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
CaptainDean wrote:
I do still have the original piston that sucked a valve. It can be the Guinea Pigston to find out how much a 1/16", 1/8" and 1/4" hole or divot will equate in grams. The piston also has the cut-away in the skirt for clearance for the oil nozzle. It could be made larger as necessary.

Before starting to experiment on my replaced piston, I thought it might be salvageable. Turns out not. Upon closer look I saw a tell-tale mark on the crown. Upon even further investigation, I found cracks in the crown, so it's out. I'll go back to drilling holes and measuring the weight losses.

Piston crown showing a perfect image of the top of the connecting rod.
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Cracked crown close up.
Image

Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Last night I wrote to VM Specialists asking the best way to balance 38g out of pistons. (Drilling holes in skirt, drilling divots in skirt, removing skirt material, removing weight from the entire piston/wrist pin/con rod assembly) They responded saying "...connecting rods vary as much as 65g. Many customers use one new piston and match the heaviest rod making the imbalance minimal..."

I never expected that.

Dean.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Wow, I guess being a lower RPM engine, it may be more tolerant of imbalance,

You have to be careful with Rods though. You can't just weigh the whole rod vs another.
The small ends count as reciprocating mass, and the big ends count as rotating mass. They need to be addressed separately, and not as a single unit.

Well i can't wait to hear how you address it and how it works out!

:POPCORN:
Author:  WWDiesel [ Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
GordnadoCRD wrote:
You have to be careful with Rods though. You can't just weigh the whole rod vs another.
The small ends count as reciprocating mass, and the big ends count as rotating mass. They need to be addressed separately, and not as a single unit.
:POPCORN:

So very true; requires specialized equipment to measure and balance. :roll:
Normal blueprint balancing of the crankshaft rotating mass is done with the connecting rods attached...
Author:  CaptainDean [ Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Got my lifters and rocker arms back from the machinist's shop. They were hidden behind his door in a shop towel.

Rockers are a weak link in the engine by design. When a catastrophic event happens, they are supposed to crack and give-way in favor of damaging the head. Smart idea but it's intention is mainly for a broken timing belt, not an explosion from water splitting in the combustion chamber.

I'll have to get one at least, maybe more. I'll check the bunch with a dial indicator tomorrow. Not sure if I can buy the clips separately.

Complete set of rockers and lifters
Image

One cracked rocker arm.
Image
Author:  JieselDeep [ Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
I think there's a thread (with pictures) around here somewhere on testing the lifters. You might check into it, from all I've read here, they are suspect at any time, and especially any time you've have occasion to open the engine that far anyway...

I'm suspicious of my own rockers and lifters...and valves...but it hasn't been bad enough yet for me to pull the head. Also, quite frankly, that part intimidates me a bit, which is part of the reason is like to see what all you're up to over there. Nothing teaches like experience and i just don't have that much 4 cycle engine experience, yet!

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
You can buy the cam followers without buying the hydraulic adjusters.
I really recommend buying a full set.
I don't want to be spending your money, but even on fixed income, I don't think it's worth risking one failing and taking out a cam. or worse. You can see ones that have already failed, but not ones that are fatigued and ready to fail.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
I read your warnings and suggestions, and am considering them seriously.

I had one cylinder fail, including one valve that got sucked in, and one that got mashed. I changed all four valves but only found one rocker arm split. Unfortunately all the rocker arms and lifters were in a pile, and not in any order to retain the identity of which cylinder or valve they were associated with.

After over an hour of close inspection and fiddling, I managed to identify the one clip and one lifter that were assembled with the one broken rocker arm.

One clip was snapped on one side. One lifter was much looser than the others as though the spring had been mashed.

At this time I am feeling confident that replacing one lifter/rocker/clip assembly will be good. However, tomorrow or next evening I will check the remaining rockers with a dial indicator to see if any are tweaked.

Dean.
Author:  turblediesel [ Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Thanks for your great photos.

Check for rocker pin wear. I vote for a fresh set for your fresh engine.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Pulled the other two pistons today and weighed everything. I like it when things work out, but I don't like always going around the long way to get there. The one new piston is 38g lighter than the original pistons, but it has a wrist pin that is 27g heavier.

Here are the weights...

Cylinder__Piston__Wrist pin__Con Rod top__Con rod bot___Con Rod total__Assembled piston
__1______834g____307g______310g_________645g_________1067g__________1453g____
__2______836g____306g______305g_________648g_________1067g__________1452g____
__3______801g____333g______311g_________645g_________1075g__________1450g____
__4______836g____307g______300g_________653g_________1072g__________1457g____

Connecting Rod holder for weighing
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Connecting rods top and bottom weights (grams)
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Connecting rods total weights (grams)
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Wrist pin weights
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Piston weights
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All this tells me these assemblies are close enough. I don't have to do any balancing, it's close enough.
Dean.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
For not being blueprinted, I think you are correct.

Weird though, how the light piston was almost perfectly offset by an oddly heavy connecting rod...
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
GordnadoCRD wrote:
Weird though, how the light piston was almost perfectly offset by an oddly heavy connecting rod.
Actually, there was hype about new pistons being lighter, but there was no hype about new pistons coming with a heavier wrist pin. New piston is -38g but the new wrist pin is +27g equals the assembly is -11g.

It's not perfect, but close enough to use.

Dean.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
CaptainDean wrote:
GordnadoCRD wrote:
Weird though, how the light piston was almost perfectly offset by an oddly heavy connecting rod.
Actually, there was hype about new pistons being lighter, but there was no hype about new pistons coming with a heavier wrist pin. New piston is -38g but the new wrist pin is +27g equals the assembly is -11g.

It's not perfect, but close enough to use.

Dean.

Consider that the #3 Con Rod top end is +11g from the lightest, brings it even closer.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
While I had the pistons out again, I relieved my worries of the liners installation. #4 was the first to go in and it resisted and resisted then !wham! went all the way in. Today I took it out and found the o-rings are okay. Halfway through the first liners installation, I found the bottom end of the block combustion area has a machined approach for the liner o-rings. Put it back together feeling much better.

Also contrived a straight edge for the dial indicator and checked the protrusion of each liner. In the end I needed to raise #1 liner up 0.001". It had a 0.0095" shim washer so I needed a 0.0105". The thickest one was 0.0100" so I went with it.

I didn't have a machinist's straight edge with dial indicator holder, so I clamped my dial indicator to a carpenter's quick square. The spacing wasn't right for the indicator shaft so I clamped a wrench in the mix to make it work. And it did work good. 8)

Image

Image

Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Finalized the lower end today. Torqued the con rod bolts with thread locker blue. Engine still spins smoothly.

Checked the piston protrusion and found I should have the middle-thickness head gasket, the one with one hole or notch. The gasket set came with a two-holer which is standard fare when VM Specialists sends out a rebuild gasket set. The difference in gasket thickness is minimal. (No hole = 0.052", one hole = 0.056", two hole = 0.060")

Image

Installed the balance shaft and oil pump suction tube with thread locker blue. Engine still spins smoothly.

The new gasket set did not come with a new oil pan gasket. Installed the oil pan without a gasket by sealing it with gasket maker. Afterward I noticed my old pan gasket and realized it is also a spacer. I'll have to take it back off, goop up the old gasket and re-install the pan. This will make the transmission bolts line up better.

Placed the head atop the cylinders but did not tighten the bolts. It just felt good placing the head on. That will come back off next weekend. I'll use the copper gasket sealer and put it on for good.

Dean.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
:BANANA: :POPCORN:
Author:  CaptainDean [ Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Got the oil pan off and back on, this time with the gasket. This made the transmission bolt slide in properly from the engine stand.

Also got the head on with copper sealant. Torqued it down to specifications.
All bolts: Initial torque to 23 ft lbs
Center bolts: Tighten 70° swing.
Outer bolts: Tighten 50° swing.
All bolts again: Tighten 70° swing.
I was visually plotting the 70° and 50° swings, so to finish I tested the torque to 80 ft lbs and a few turned a bit more.

Set the cam/cover on top just for these pictures, no lifters or rocker arms installed.
Installed the front main seal and vacuum pump & oil pump cover. Also put the oil cooler on.
Image

Installed the block warmer (not needed in tropics) and the center water plug to eliminate the EGR assembly.
Image
I never notice the "OK" hand sign on the front. (Thumb and pointing finger in circle, 3 other fingers straight)
Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Does anyone know what this gasket goes to? It came in my complete gasket set. Before I opened the engine I thought it was the oil pan gasket.

Image

Dean.
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