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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:06 am 
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It should be fine to spin over, and in fact doing so should reveal any odd imbalance in compression. I'm a little curious, though, about all the fuel stuff set up on the stand. If you're expecting it to fire, I don't know how it would without the ECM managing the pressure and firing the injectors.

If it doesn't crank over evenly, I would dig back in to find out why and fix it rather than install it and start it.

If there is one cylinder different, at least you know it's something local not something like cam timing that would affect all cylinders.

If you have on heavy and one light would be the biggest worry. That would indicate compression leaking between cylinders such as bad head gasket in that manner.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:03 am 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
I'm a little curious, though, about all the fuel stuff set up on the stand. If you're expecting it to fire, I don't know how it would without the ECM managing the pressure and firing the injectors.

I'm not expecting it to fire, I just wanted fuel in the fuel pump to prevent non lubricated o-rings from getting worn.

A few years ago I ran a diesel engine by spraying starting fluid down the intake. I learned my lesson and will not do that again. I might try spraying some diesel with a paint sprayer that will atomize the fuel.

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2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:21 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
Good, I understand that.
I just didn't know what you were expecting to happen.

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'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
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Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
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GM 12611872
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GM 15976889
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2010 Ram Hemi Trans
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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:07 am 
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I'm back!! The Captain's course is over and everybody passed. First time through teaching by myself had a few bumps but I got though it.

Spent a little time on the engine and had an embarrassing setback. Last you heard was the intake / camshaft-holder / engine-top was dirty with crud from the EGR system. At first I put it on with *some* cleaning but that turned out horrible. *Some* cleaning loosened sand in the intake which got sucked into the cylinders while cranking on battery. My human head nearly exploded when I heard the sounds.

So, in the "close the barn door after the horses got out" department, I discovered that soaking the engine top / camshaft holder / intake in Oxyclean overnight in a tub worked wonders. (3 scoops of Oxyclean in 10 gallons of water) Hosed it off and it was clean as new. Vacuumed more sand out of the intake ports in the head and put the top back on.

Cranked it by hand today and I now have compression in all four cylinders. I'm wondering if the compression is as good as should be without a compression tester.

Has anyone ever taken a torque reading on the crank while handing the engine over? I haven't yet but I'm guessing about 40 ft/lbs for each compression stroke.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:48 am 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
IIRC... It's been a while...

Snap-On function for these, uses a cranking voltage modulation comparison between the 4 cylinders. FSM uses a % difference number between highest and lowest.

Again ... IIRC ... If you use an adapter in the injector or GP location, it needs to be capable of 250psi or higher.

Sorry I don't have a better answer.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:18 am 
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Been looking on Amazon and eBay for a compression tester for our CRD. There are many kits that offer generic connection to the injector port or the glow plug port.

Any advise from the Lost Jeeps populous?

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:25 am 
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GDE have one for rent?
CaptainDean wrote:
Been looking on Amazon and eBay for a compression tester for our CRD. There are many kits that offer generic connection to the injector port or the glow plug port.

Any advise from the Lost Jeeps populous?

Dean.


Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:20 am 
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CaptainDean wrote:
Been looking on Amazon and eBay for a compression tester for our CRD. There are many kits that offer generic connection to the injector port or the glow plug port.

I ordered a kit offered by Qbace - probably have it in 10 days. I suspect I will find I have to remove the head and discover I'll have to replace all the cylinder liners.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:38 am 
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Got the Qbase compression tester and it worked fine. The gauge doesn't hold the pressure steadily, but that is a minor fault. It was cheap ($60) so I'm not complaining.

Cylinder 1 = 300 PSI, #2 = 400, #3 = 400, #4 = 300. I'm a little skeptical about getting only 2 values (300 and 400) but maybe it is telling the truth.

Regardless, I took the head off for a look-see at the cylinders. The orange/rust color is over-spray from the copper gasket spray.

Don't know what that scar is on #1, but it is not actually there. I checked twice. All cylinder walls have scratches from the sand but no gouges. I cannot feel the scratches with my fingertips nor finger nails.
Image
Image
Image
Image

I'll take the head apart this coming weekend and re-lap the valves. What liquid should I use to check the valves for leakage? How much is acceptable?

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:56 am 
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I use just plain gasoline. Gas has a way of 'finding it's way out'.. And makes a fine leak detector.
Here's the general warning; Gas is flammable. Be careful. Don't light a cigarette. Don't do this inside the house. Don't get it on your skin, breathe the fumes, or drink. :roll:

How much leakage is acceptable? 'none'. Properly ground and lapped valves will hold back even gasoline.

Put the head flat and level on a couple of blocks, so you can see under it and the valves. pour or squirt the gas down the intake ports to cover the backside of the valve. 2-3 tablespoons should be plenty.
You'll know immediately if you have a 'leaker'.
You may see a 'dampness' ring creeping outward after an extended period.. (several minutes) As long as this 'creeping' isn't growing..(stays within say, the seat area) And NO drips!! I usually give it that much time (2-3 minutes) Fill the ports, look for a hanging drip... test is done. Dispose the gas properly.

Don't freak just yet if you find one with a drip.. Take a rubber mallet, or a piece of hardwood, (don't use any metal) and 'lightly smack' the spring end of the valve, 2-3 times. *gas will be dumped.. so be prepared. Most of the time, that will do the trick.
It doesn't 'fix' anything... but sometimes a tiny chunk of grit, lint fuzz is all it takes to hold the valve open. 'cycling' the valve those couple times should 'snap' any foreign body away.

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11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:15 pm 
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CaptainDean wrote:
I'll take the head apart this coming weekend and re-lap the valves. What liquid should I use to check the valves for leakage? How much is acceptable?
Dean.

When I worked in a machine shop, we always used diesel fuel to test for valve leakage. A lot safer and much less flammable than dealing with gasoline.
Results will still be the same.
After assembly with the valve springs, we always popped the valves with a hard rubber mallet a few times as well before testing like Rancherman stated to make sure they were fully seated and to set the valve keeper locks in the valve keeper... :idea:

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Last edited by WWDiesel on Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:16 am 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
WWDiesel wrote:
CaptainDean wrote:
I'll take the head apart this coming weekend and re-lap the valves. What liquid should I use to check the valves for leakage? How much is acceptable?
Dean.

When I worked in a machine shop, we always used diesel fuel to test for valve leakage. A lot safer and much less flammable than dealing with gasoline.
Results will still be the same.
After assembly with the valve springs, we always popped the valves with a hard rubber mallet a few times as well before testing like Rancerman stated to make sure they were fully seated and to set the valve keeper locks in the valve keeper... :idea:

I'd use vodka or Captain Morgan or Bacardi ... That way you've something to do with the remaining partial bottle while waiting for leaks.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:35 am 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
CaptainDean wrote:
I'll take the head apart this coming weekend and re-lap the valves. What liquid should I use to check the valves for leakage? How much is acceptable?
Dean.

When I worked in a machine shop, we always used diesel fuel to test for valve leakage. A lot safer and much less flammable than dealing with gasoline.
Results will still be the same.
After assembly with the valve springs, we always popped the valves with a hard rubber mallet a few times as well before testing like Rancerman stated to make sure they were fully seated and to set the valve keeper locks in the valve keeper... :idea:

I'd use vodka or Captain Morgan or Bacardi ... That way you've something to do with the remaining partial bottle while waiting for leaks.


And longer it takes, funnier it goes that way... :5SHOTS: ... :jester:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:44 pm 
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...vodka or Captain Morgan or Bacardi. I could use a laugh.

Worked on the engine today. Without the head installed, and while wrenching the crankshaft & pistons around, it had a scraping sound somewhat similar to butterflies screaming for help. Cleaned out the space between the pistons & cylinder walls above the first ring and that took care of it. ...or maybe merely killed the butterflies.

With the crank at 90º and all pistons halfway down, I poured ½ cup of diesel in each cylinder and waited for it to drip down, but it remained pretty well. Is that expected? ...or should I take the pistons out and clean around the rings?

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:42 am 
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I'm thinking with all the cleaning of your piston tops, and liners, there isn't much lube left. that 'screaming butterfly' noise :roll: is just the sound of rings scraping the liners...

Yes, rings are to seal the piston to the liner wall, and it will hold back liquid.
You should get that diesel fuel all out. 'washed out rings' is a real 'thing'. Not near as bad as gasoline, but not as good as engine oil either!!
Run each piston to the top.. mop out what you can.
Then blow out with compressed air (it's going to make a heck of a mess, so be prepared)

roll engine over several times, and stop when piston is at bottom. Wipe clean any debris that 'stuck' to the cylinder wall when the piston receded.

Then take a clean rag, with some clean engine oil, and mop the cylinders. Doesn't have to be soaked, but a nice film. Roll engine over several times. check for any more debris and wipe clean yet again. (can't do this too many times!)
Anytime I have a head off, Invariably some crud gets down a cylinder. I make a point to check each piston top, and look for ANY small chunks that made it past the top of the piston, and is now sitting on top of the first ring.. I use magnifying reader glasses and a bright light.

I'll use a shop vac, blow nozzle... to clean it up.

_________________
2006 KJ CRD, bought 9/11/14, 70,500 miles. Circulating Rotella T6 5w-40
11-3-14 oem stat installed
11-5-14 gen II FH installed.
Sasquatch elbow kit, samcos, GDE eco FT. 11-26-14
80,500 miles, engine is disassembled, awaiting parts 3/18
Budget?? Sure! 'Everything I have'.
New "Pet" name for My Jeep; 'Soul Sucker'


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:11 pm 
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Thanks Rangerman,

I did clean up the cylinders pretty well, but I will do it another couple times and mop the cylinder walls with engine oil as well.

My next chore is to re-lap the valves since there was a little diesel seepage in the center two cylinders exhaust valves. That would explain the No. 1-400 lbs., #2-300#, #3-300#, #4-400# compression readings.

Afterward, my plan is to re-assemble with the old gaskets and bolts for the purpose of another compression test. If good, I'll get new gaskets & bolts (or studs) and disassemble and reassemble again for keepers.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:08 am 
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Today (Saturday) I re-lapped all the exhaust valves and 3 of 8 intake valves. One exhaust valve in #2 cylinder had a noticeable flaw in the seat that re-lapping eliminated. #1 intake valve had rust on it, and the other #1 had particles of sand on it. Tomorrow I'll finish the remaining 5 intake valves, and check all the valves with gasoline. I have some old 2-cycle chain saw gas that needs a purpose.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:58 am 
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Finished lapping the 5 remaining intake valves. Cleaned them with the old 2-cycle chain saw gasoline by filling the intake/exhaust ports and rapping the valves with a rubber mallet. Reassembled the engine and got it all timed. Didn't have enough time to do a compression test before nightfall. I could feel compression in all cylinders but I'm not confident they all feel the same. Next weekend I'll do a compression test and determine where to go from there.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:12 pm 
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Got the beast together last weekend and did a compression test today (Sunday) on the engine stand. Results are #1-370#, #2-370#, #3-380#, #4-370#. That seems really good as they are all well within 10% (37#) of each other. Last time I had some cylinders with 400#; possibly this time is 370 because I used the same head gasket.

My plan was to assemble it with the old gaskets and assess the engine, then pull it apart and re-assemble with new gaskets. Getting 370 pounds makes the decision to pull it apart pretty difficult since it's already pretty good.

Also have to find the right turbo to install. I have 3. The pretty-shiny-clean one leaks pressurized oil that ends up in the intake tube. At first it seemed to be coming from the oil separator atop the engine, but that did't make sense. I refrained from installing the turbo and capped-off the oil supply line while cranking it today for the compression test. No oil came from the oil separator tube other than oily vapors.

I believe my true next step is to spray fuel down the intake while cranking and see if it will start. I have one of those glass jars with an aerosol paint sprayer on top. That should vaporize the fuel enough to start it. I'll have to have a can of starting fluid staged nearby.

If you hear a distant sound of an explosion, that will be me.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Reconnected EGR piping, plugged EGR at intake, removed butterfly valve, removed crossover pipe, plugged exhaust port.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member.
Running on 2 cylinders, big clunking in engine, water in oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:56 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:12 pm
Posts: 2094
Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
Try using a can of WD40.(no tube) That's better and less hazardous than ether.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


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