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Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87478		 Page 26 of 55
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sat May 11, 2019 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Examined the piston assembly closer on Friday. I found the top of the connecting rod has two oil receiver ports, so it wouldn't matter if I installed any of the rods backward. Also, the rod - wrist pin - piston connection is easy to move but has no excessive clearance. They do not move silently -- there is some rough noise when gyrating the wrist pin joint.

I put wrist pin bushings in my shopping cart at IDParts.

Dean.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Sat May 11, 2019 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
If they are all the same, they wouldn't be the cause of the knocking you described.

When it was running, what was the oil pressure at that time?

Sorry, if you covered that in a previous post, I missed it skimming through.

You've pretty much disproven any mechanical source of a rod-bearing-type knocking sound.

Perhaps it's a result of a weak combustion event followed by the attempt to bring the idle speed back up. Such as if you unplug one of the injectors while it's running, or do a cylinder drop test. The combustion even next in the firing order will hammer pretty hard and make a similar sound to a rod knock. Were you able to isolate it to a particular cylinder?
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sat May 11, 2019 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
GordnadoCRD wrote:
If they are all the same, they wouldn't be the cause of the knocking you described. When it was running, what was the oil pressure at that time? Sorry, if you covered that in a previous post, I missed it skimming through.

You've pretty much dis-proven any mechanical source of a rod-bearing-type knocking sound. Perhaps it's a result of a weak combustion event followed by the attempt to bring the idle speed back up. Such as if you unplug one of the injectors while it's running, or do a cylinder drop test. The combustion even next in the firing order will hammer pretty hard and make a similar sound to a rod knock. Were you able to isolate it to a particular cylinder?

Thanks for the help GordnadoCRD.

As yet I have not connected an oil pressure gauge, and the factory instrument panel does not have one. Does oil pressure get reported through the diagnostic plug - diagnostic adapter - diagnostic mobile phone program ? Regarding improper combustion, the engine ran real good and had excellent power.

Today I ordered a set of Telescopic Inside Measurement tools for the micrometer. Next week I can measure the actual clearance between the piston - wrist pin - rod bushing. I think it will be within tolerances merely because the wrist pin - piston joint felt pretty good.

My next course of action is to pull the crankshaft again (ugh !!!) and check the clearances. I'm ordering a new set of main bearings anyway. Right now the crank turns really sweet but my next paragraph will explain...


...next paragraph: I believe I have identified the strange mud the machinist found in the head. It must be ugly crap leftover from the EGR system. The intake was CAKED thick with black gooey, crumbly, sand-like guck. When I was assembling the engine the first time I found this crumbly goo, and ended up soaking the cam shaft - intake section in Oxy Clean - water solution overnight. That cleaned it up amazingly well.

I also cleaned the cavernous interior of the block with a spray bottle and various solutions of cleaners, metal prep, degreasers. However I never ran any thing through the oil galleys. This time I plan to either drive the oil pump somehow, or connect an exterior pump so I can clean the oil galley system. I suppose I'll pump diesel through the system until it comes out clean. Maybe I'll soak the entire block in Oxy Clean for 24 hours. I'll take out the piston oiler nozzles and ensure they are clear. I'm expecting to find a ton of guck backed up against those.

Even after cleaning the engine as much as I did, the oil still turned soot black immediately. I was hoping to merely change the oil a few times and clear it out, but this guck seems to be a bigger problem.

Dean.
Author:  layback40 [ Sun May 12, 2019 12:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
To get oil through galleries, first blow them out with air, then you can use a large syringe & pump it using that or if you have a bottle you can fill it with oil & pressurize it to blow oil through.


Could the rough feeling in the wrist pin you mentioned previously been the pin rubbing against the retaining clip? Unusual to have roughness, you would be able to see it on the surface of the pin.

A small favour,
If you are around the car could you please measure the diameter of the CV boot on the LHS inner on the drive shaft & the shaft diameter & the boot length. I want to replace that one on my KJ number 2 as it has surface cracks. I saw some the other day on a clear out table at a parts place very cheap. Its too cold & wet here to climb under it. With the engine out of yours you can probably just lean in from the top.

thanks
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sun May 12, 2019 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
layback40 wrote:
To get oil through galleries, first blow them out with air, then you can use a large syringe & pump it using that or if you have a bottle you can fill it with oil & pressurize it to blow oil through.

Could the rough feeling in the wrist pin you mentioned previously been the pin rubbing against the retaining clip? Unusual to have roughness, you would be able to see it on the surface of the pin.

A small favour,
If you are around the car could you please measure the diameter of the CV boot on the LHS inner on the drive shaft & the shaft diameter & the boot length. I want to replace that one on my KJ number 2 as it has surface cracks. I saw some the other day on a clear out table at a parts place very cheap. Its too cold & wet here to climb under it. With the engine out of yours you can probably just lean in from the top.
thanks

Thanks for the tips layback40,

Glad to do a favor/favour, but let me assure I understand you first. LHS means Left Half Shaft? And you want these dimensions.
Image
Boot diameter at large end: 9.5cm (30cm circumference)
Boot length: 9cm
Axle diameter sticking out of boot: 2.25cm

Dean.
Author:  layback40 [ Sun May 12, 2019 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Those were the 3 I wanted. Thanks Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Tue May 14, 2019 1:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
When I do re-assemble this engine, I want to ensure my torque wrenches are calibrated correctly. I used to calibrate torque wrenches in the military, it was the beginner's chore in the Instrumentation department. Recently I was planning to build a testing bench but have now discovered a very simple method. Check out the following but realize they published incorrect math in their web page. (26" X 20 pounds = 520 inch pounds ...but does not equal 50 foot pounds !! ...actually equals 43.3 foot pounds.) However, their ideas for checking torque wrenches are excellent.

https://www.wikihow.com/Calibrate-a-Torque-Wrench
Image

Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Thu May 16, 2019 2:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Here is the information you will need to test your torque wrenches. The picture is how you will mount the torque wrench in a vise for testing. The tables below are for hanging a weight from the handle. [Edit: I have updated the tables below. The first were too difficult to use. These are much simpler and easy to read.]

Put a mark on the handle at the median location on the torque wrench handle. Notice the median distance in the tables. For example, one table lists [4", 5", 6", 7", 8"] -- 6" is the median location. There are also tables for hanging the weight at 12", 18", 24", 30" and 36". Set your torque wrench to the median torque setting. Hang the weight at the median location first and see if it clicks. Don't change the setting, but reposition the weight until you can determine which location makes the torque wrench click. If necessary, adjust the wrench until it clicks perfectly at the median location.
Image

This table is based on hanging a weight 6" from the socket drive, plus or minus 2 inches.
Image
Adjust the wrench so it clicks at the 6" setting.

This table is based on hanging a weight 12" from the socket drive, plus or minus 2 inches.
Image
Adjust the wrench so it clicks at the 12" setting.

This table is based on hanging a weight 18" from the socket drive, plus or minus 2 inches.
Image
Adjust the wrench so it clicks at the 18" setting.

This table is based on hanging a weight 24" from the socket drive, plus or minus 2 inches.
Image
Adjust the wrench so it clicks at the 24" setting.

This table is based on hanging a weight 30" from the socket drive, plus or minus 2 inches.
Image
Adjust the wrench so it clicks at the 30" setting.

This table is based on hanging a weight 36" from the socket drive, plus or minus 2 inches.
Image
Adjust the wrench so it clicks at the 36" setting.

Have fun and make all your torque wrenches work perfectly.

Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Mon May 20, 2019 1:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Flushed the oil galleys in the engine today with diesel fuel, and checked all four nozzles that spray up under the pistons.

Flushing went well by using an electric transfer pump connected to the oil filter threaded center connection. When I get the engine halfway back together, this method will enable me to "aim" each nozzle directly at the hole in the pistons.
Image

Had to close one port that delivers oil to the head and cam shafts. A simple nail set tapped once into the hole did the job nicely. This was the only place where lube oil would spill onto the surface of the head.
Image

Was able to flush everything and catch the return through the oil drain plug/valve. The interior looks very clean now and I know the galleys are cleared.

Also checked each of the nozzles that spray into the hollow undersides of the pistons.
Image
It was interesting to discover that each nozzle has an internal check valve. This prevents all points higher than the nozzles from draining when shut down.

Here is a closer look at each of the nozzles.

Nozzle #1. It worked but not very good.
Image

Nozzle #2. This one sprayed twice as high as an Elephant's eye.
Image

Nozzle #3. Clogged.
Image

Nozzle #4. Clogged.
Image

With the nozzles removed, I pumped diesel through the galleys again and it GUSHED out of those ports. Had to hold a finger over each empty nozzle port so fuel would course through the entire system.

After pumping diesel through the oil filter threaded fitting, I also spun the crankshaft with a drill to drive the oil pump. That would complete the cleaning of the oil passageways.
Image

Driving the oil pump resulted in having to catch the oil as it would normally enter the oil filter. Without any restrictions, the engine oil pump pushes a lot of volume of oil.
Image

Dean.
Author:  layback40 [ Mon May 20, 2019 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Great work Dean! The oil system flush has shown a few issues with the sprays & fixing them will sure help.
In other forums in the past I have been told the best thing to do flushing with is biodiesel as it is a very good solvent for crud.
Once all the diesel has drained out, I would be blowing compressed air through & then pushing a bit of engine oil through to make sure there are no pockets of diesel
Have you heard anything concerning the head?
Author:  WolverineFW [ Mon May 20, 2019 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
So what are you thinking now Dean? Is the theory that the 2 wristpins were making your noise due to no lubrication from theb2 clogged nozzles?

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
Author:  CaptainDean [ Tue May 21, 2019 12:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
layback40: Yes, I have heard that biodiesel is a great cleaner. However, I happen to have a bottle of Engine Flush in my cabinet so I'll use that. Even though I wasn't thinking small pockets of diesel would be problematic, I will flush it out with engine oil afterward.

I took the nozzles to work and blew them out with air compressor air. Three made shuddering sounds like the check valve was fluttering (probably good) and one just passed air like the check valve was "gooey". I'll dig into the *other 2006 CRD engine* and clean them as well. I'll take the 4 best of 8 and use them in the engine.

No one is selling new nozzles anymore. Not IDParts, not OEM Chrysler, not Buy Auto Parts, not CarParts.com, Sasquatch, not Rock Auto. I think I'll be fine with nozzles from these two engines.

WolverineFW: This week I received a set of Telescopic Inside Measurement tools from Amazon that I will check the piston / wrist pin clearance. Don't know if these cheap Chinese tools will provide accurate information. I think that comparing vertical and horizontal measurements in the piston's wrist pin bore will tell me if the tools are performing properly.

However, clearly cylinder 1 was only getting some lubrication, and 3 & 4 were getting none. I'll blow out the hollows and ports in the pistons while I'm at it. My 'best practices' path is to replace all the bearings throughout the engine. Last time I only changed the rod/crank bearings and re-used my original crankshaft main bearings; the new ones from VM Specialist in England did not fit right. Even though the thought of taking the crankshaft out again is painful, it seems to be the correct choice. I know I would always wonder about the main bearings if I didn't change them.

Dean.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Tue May 21, 2019 1:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Perhaps 'relieved' isn't the most accurate word, but I would definitely feel at least somewhat 'justified' in having the fresh engine back out, stripped down, and gone through again, as much of a pain, expense, etc. you've suffered, and resisting the temptation to haul it up the hill and make it an offering to Pele.

At least you've found things failed/wrong/potentially problematic that needed correction. In my life of observation, whenever I've seen inaccuracies of "inside mic." measurement it's always been "operator error", so unless the clamps slip, I think you'll be alright, and that's something you'll notice right away.

Hang in there! You'll soon have a brand new Jeep, and a wealth of knowledge & experience!
Author:  CaptainDean [ Wed May 22, 2019 2:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
GordnadoCRD wrote:
Perhaps 'relieved' isn't the most accurate word, but I would definitely feel at least somewhat 'justified' in having the fresh engine back out, stripped down, and gone through again, as much of a pain, expense, etc. you've suffered, and resisting the temptation to haul it up the hill and make it an offering to Pele.

At least you've found things failed/wrong/potentially problematic that needed correction. In my life of observation, whenever I've seen inaccuracies of "inside mic." measurement it's always been "operator error", so unless the clamps slip, I think you'll be alright, and that's something you'll notice right away.

Hang in there! You'll soon have a brand new Jeep, and a wealth of knowledge & experience!

Thanks for the kind words of wisdom and hope GordnadoCRD.

I'm sure you're right about all of this as I will continue to make progress. The last time I used an Inside Micrometer was when I learned about them in the 70's. Being 50 years later now, I expect to have the patience to take measurements several times until I start to feel "the knack" for getting it right.

Got the head back from the machinist yesterday. He removed all four freeze plug style plugs at each end of the oil galleys. He didn't have any new ones to replace them so he threaded the holes in preparation for plugs. I'd like to reinstall freeze plug plugs -- does anyone know a good source ? (I'll start at the local NAPA store.)

This coming weekend I will continue my process of flushing the block by installing the 'up the skirt' nozzles as well as the head and cam shaft section. This will be some extended use for the old head gasket and your generous head bolts.

Dean.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Wed May 22, 2019 5:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Ahh the '70s. Many things were learned in those days.. not all of them particularly useful at this stage of life, but somehow I'm still here and learning things.

If the head gasket had no leaks, I doubt re-use of an MLS gasket would cause problems, but I really really hope you don't intend to re-use the OEM TTY head bolts, unless it's just a mock-up for testing the oil flow to the cam and lash adjusters.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Thu May 23, 2019 1:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
GordnadoCRD wrote:
Ahh the '70s. Many things were learned in those days.. not all of them particularly useful at this stage of life, but somehow I'm still here and learning things.

If the head gasket had no leaks, I doubt re-use of an MLS gasket would cause problems, but I really really hope you don't intend to re-use the OEM TTY head bolts, unless it's just a mock-up for testing the oil flow to the cam and lash adjusters.

No I am not assembling the engine for use, this is just to finish the oil passage cleaning process. Having the head on the engine is a convenient place to flush and verify flow to all the lash adjuster ports.

I plan to go gang busters by installing the cam shaft assembly and running this diesel / engine flush solution through everything. Spinning the driveshaft / oil pump / vacuum pump without any pistons installed is a easy and OCD way to clean this engine.

Dean.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Thu May 23, 2019 1:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
I've never seen one done that way, but it seems like it would work just as well as an ultrasonic tank cleaning, with the extra benefit of being able to observe whether any passages still have blockage somewhere.

:POPCORN:
Author:  CaptainDean [ Fri May 24, 2019 12:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
GordnadoCRD wrote:
I've never seen one done that way, but it seems like it would work just as well as an ultrasonic tank cleaning, with the extra benefit of being able to observe whether any passages still have blockage somewhere.

:POPCORN:

I don't have a large ultrasonic tank, and if I give it to the local machinist I won't get it back for another 3 to 6 weeks. This is the island-life way of coping.

Just have to get through Friday then I'll have a 3-day weekend to get some stuff done.

Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Tue May 28, 2019 1:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
CaptainDean wrote:
Just have to get through Friday then I'll have a 3-day weekend to get some stuff done.

It always amazes me how 3-day weekends get whittled in half by house repairs and yard work. Drat.

Put the under-piston nozzles back in after soaking them in diesel and blowing them out with compressed air. Still, only one worked.

Dug into the *other 2006 CRD engine* by removing the head and draining the original oil. The oil was black as soot and thick. The head seems undamaged and the piston tops look relatively normal. No valve tops stuck in them and the cylinders look good. Piston #1 was the only one indicating a good burn, the others were caked with carbon and oily. The crank is somewhat difficult to turn so I'm thinking it suffered a spun bearing. Used a large handheld electric drill to spin the crank with the head off. Might have turned 400 or more RPM. No knocking or scraping sounds.

Never quite got inside to the under-piston nozzles. The fading sun and a growling stomach marked the end of the day.

When I do get the pan off, I'll remove the pistons and clean the block by pumping diesel through it. That seems to work really well. I plan to compare the parts from the *other 2006 CRD engine* with mine. I might end up mixing and matching the best parts from each.

Ordered a 1-2 inch and a 2-3 inch micrometers that should be here just inside of June. Also ordered bearings and bolts from IDParts for the final and clean reassembly. Took advantage of the Memorial Day 10% off special -- to bad the free shipping only applies to the contiguous 48 states.

Dean.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Tue May 28, 2019 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
CaptainDean wrote:
CaptainDean wrote:
Put the under-piston nozzles back in after soaking them in diesel and blowing them out with compressed air. Still, only one worked.
Dean.

Just curious, why not order 4 new oil jets from ID Parts?
https://www.idparts.com/oil-spray-jet-s ... -3886.html
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