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Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87478		 Page 27 of 55
Author:  CaptainDean [ Wed May 29, 2019 1:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
WWDiesel wrote:
Just curious, why not order 4 new oil jets from ID Parts?
https://www.idparts.com/oil-spray-jet-s ... -3886.html

Thanks WWDiesel,

Sometimes I need a slap in the face to get out of a slump. I've looked at IDParts many times but haven't clicked on the Lubrication System category button since forever. Thanks.

I'm calling them tomorrow (Wed) to update an order. I can include this too.

Dean.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Wed May 29, 2019 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
CaptainDean wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
Just curious, why not order 4 new oil jets from ID Parts?
https://www.idparts.com/oil-spray-jet-s ... -3886.html

Thanks WWDiesel,
Sometimes I need a slap in the face to get out of a slump. I've looked at IDParts many times but haven't clicked on the Lubrication System category button since forever. Thanks.
I'm calling them tomorrow (Wed) to update an order. I can include this too.
Dean.

Good move! Glad I mentioned it. :BINGO:
Author:  layback40 [ Wed May 29, 2019 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
WWDiesel wrote:
CaptainDean wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
Just curious, why not order 4 new oil jets from ID Parts?
https://www.idparts.com/oil-spray-jet-s ... -3886.html

Thanks WWDiesel,
Sometimes I need a slap in the face to get out of a slump. I've looked at IDParts many times but haven't clicked on the Lubrication System category button since forever. Thanks.
I'm calling them tomorrow (Wed) to update an order. I can include this too.
Dean.

Good move! Glad I mentioned it. :BINGO:


It takes a village to rebuild a VM successfully !
We have a good one in this group!
Author:  CaptainDean [ Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Wanted to get to the Jeep this weekend but some big yard work got in the way. Anyway, the 1-2" micrometer and new parts from IDParts have not arrived. Next weekend should show some results.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
IDParts parts arrived today. Crankshaft main bearings (yes, I'll pull the crankshaft again since there was an oil pressure problem), rod main bearings, rod wrist pin bushings, under-piston jets, new torque converter bolts, new rod main bolts, and oil pickup tube o-rings.

Next payday I'll get new hydraulic valve lash adjusters.

Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Payday. Just ordered a complete set of hydraulic lash adjusters. $345 qualifies for free shipping but only on contiguous 48 states. It amazes me how many companies don't recognize Alaska and Hawaii as US states, even when we select United States Postal Service for shipping method -- which is the same price to the 48 states and Alaska & Hawaii.

Dean.
Author:  WolverineFW [ Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Just to make you feel more screwed, when you ship something to Point Robert's Washington, it counts as lower 48 even though it can only be accessed by land from Canada. So trucks have to cross border from Washington to British Columbia, then drive to another border crossing and re enter the United States at Point Robert's. Lol
CaptainDean wrote:
Payday. Just ordered a complete set of hydraulic lash adjusters. $345 qualifies for free shipping but only on contiguous 48 states. It amazes me how many companies don't recognize Alaska and Hawaii as US states, even when we select United States Postal Service for shipping method -- which is the same price to the 48 states and Alaska & Hawaii.

Dean.


Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Interesting topic WolverineFW,

I read about Enclaves and Exclaves but the term doesn't exactly meet your situation. Nor do Semi-Enclaves and Semi-Exclaves. The next paragraph in Wikipedia hit it on the head and even mentions your town. You live in a Pene-Exclave. Cool. Visit the link --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington
Image
For further reading, here is a link to Wikipedia "Enclave and Exclave" --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclave_and_exclave

Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Back to the subject of Jeeps...

The new under-piston nozzles arrived during the week so I put them in today. A tiny amount of sealant on the o-rings and a thorough amount on the screw threads. They went in easy but I will examine their operation later.

Found oil galley end plugs at NAPA. They searched under Make and Model but had nothing listed. Searched by the Chrysler part number (05066837AA) but also came up blank. However, searching by Freeze Plug size, or Oil Galley Plug size they found the right part. Size of the oil galley plug is 0.472" diameter and the part number at NAPA is 3813193. Oddly enough the receipt showed 2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L 171 CID L4 DOHC as the description. They cost $0.99 each. The machinist had removed 4 so I bought 4.

Started my progression of cleaning by pumping diesel through the lubrication system and back into the pan. The pan drains back into the 5-gallon bucket with the original diesel. The first pass last week made the diesel jet black; this week the diesel came out mostly clean. Here is what the oil galley looks like without the plug installed.
Image

Started pumping then installed the first one where the diesel ran out first -- front right surface. A dose of Permatex gasket sealer, then tap it in flush. Seated it further in with a 8mm socket and extension.
Image
Next leaking spot was the back end of that galley so plugged it.

I expected the next place to leak would be the left side front but it never arrived. Hmmm. There are two oil galleys running longitudinally on both sides that provide oil to the hydraulic lash adjusters. Right side is getting cleaning diesel flow, left side not.

There is one lateral oil galley that I thought connected the two longitudinal galleys so I removed the plug. It was way too easy. Used a center punch in the center of the plug.
Image

Then used a self-drilling roofing screw and a 14mm socket to drill into the plug and draw it out. It was out before I realize it.
Image
Image

Once removed, I found a very filthy oil galley. This picture does not show the standing grit and gunk I found there.
Image

Attempted to flush it out by pumping diesel again but it still would not come out. Stuck a long drill into the galley and it only went a short distance. Turns out oil comes up from the block further inboard and the lateral galley only connects a vertical galley to the longitudinal galley.

Took the engine top off (cam shaft assembly) and found the problem. With the hydraulic adjusters removed, large passages ways are open along each longitudinal galley to allow all the pressure to spill out.
Image

With the hydraulic lash adjuster installed, then cleaning diesel started pouring out the last galley plug that was removed.

Since I took out the 5th galley plug, I will have to stop at NAPA tomorrow and get another one. Then I'll be able to rotate the crankshaft & oil pump and flush diesel, engine flush and actual oil through the system.

Dean.
Author:  layback40 [ Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
You have probably discovered why rocker bushes fail. I am learning from your misfortune of what I need to do when I disassemble the engine from my 2007 KJ (Kj number 1). The cleaning out of the oil galleries is one thing that most home rebuilders don't do. I wonder if yours has a history of non diesel lube oil being used.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
:POPCORN:
Author:  WWDiesel [ Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Dean, Back in my machine shop days, we routinely removed oil galley plugs from blocks before hot tanking them. Some were threaded plugs and some were press in type plugs.
Sometimes depending on the metal the press in plugs were made of, if we did not remove the plugs, the hot tank chemical would dissolve the plug anyway. Nothing but steel could go into the hot tank.
We called the chemical "Panther Piss", it was some bad stuff, had to wear rubber gloves, rubber apron, and a respirator when loading or unloading blocks in or out of it.
We then after steam cleaning block, washed the block real good with a cleaning solvent, then would use a gun cleaning bore brush on a long gun cleaning rod to thoroughly clean out and then swab out all the oil galleys.
It is amazing how dirty those oil galleys can become! :shock:
Author:  layback40 [ Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
WWDiesel wrote:
Dean, Back in my machine shop days, we routinely removed oil galley plugs from blocks before hot tanking them. Some were threaded plugs and some were press in type plugs.
Sometimes depending on the metal the press in plugs were made of, if we did not remove the plugs, the hot tank chemical would dissolve the plug anyway. Nothing but steel could go into the hot tank.
We called the chemical "Panther Piss", it was some bad stuff, had to wear rubber gloves, rubber apron, and a respirator when loading or unloading blocks in or out of it.
We then after steam cleaning block, washed the block real good with a cleaning solvent, then would use a gun cleaning bore brush on a long gun cleaning rod to thoroughly clean out and then swab out all the oil galleys.
It is amazing how dirty those oil galleys can become! :shock:



Your "Panther Piss" is probably a very strong caustic based cleaner. An engine rebuilder that I know has 2 wash tanks, one for steel & iron, the other for alloy. Put an alloy head in the steel tank overnight & it wont be there the next day.
There used to be a product similar to paint stripper (~35 years ago) for removing carbon build up from cast iron heads. If it got on alloy (pistons) it would eat it away. I have heard of people using oven cleaner, but its caustic based & so cant be used on alloy. You cant use normal paint stripper (methylene chloride based) as it to will eat away at alloy.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
layback40 wrote:
You have probably discovered why rocker bushes fail. I am learning from your misfortune of what I need to do when I disassemble the engine from my 2007 KJ (Kj number 1). The cleaning out of the oil galleries is one thing that most home rebuilders don't do. I wonder if yours has a history of non diesel lube oil being used.

Thanks Layback40,

That is an interesting point you make of "...non diesel lube oil being used...". That is one point I didn't think about. Certainly I know about only using diesel engine oil for diesel engines, but there must be side affects from using gasoline engine oils in diesels. I had always assumed it would be wear issues. Apparently gasser lube oil cannot take the heat of the oil burners? Are there another points you're driving toward?

Dean.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Gas engine motor oils are formulated for suspending solvents and sludge.

Diesel engine motor oils are formulated for suspending carbon

Both are primary products of blow-by for each of these types of engines, and the additive packages are somewhat specific.

There are oils that are a little of both for people that want an oil to use with everything, and to some degree, they do, but except for yard machines and generic farm equipment I stay away from them anymore.
Author:  layback40 [ Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
CaptainDean wrote:
layback40 wrote:
You have probably discovered why rocker bushes fail. I am learning from your misfortune of what I need to do when I disassemble the engine from my 2007 KJ (Kj number 1). The cleaning out of the oil galleries is one thing that most home rebuilders don't do. I wonder if yours has a history of non diesel lube oil being used.

Thanks Layback40,

That is an interesting point you make of "...non diesel lube oil being used...". That is one point I didn't think about. Certainly I know about only using diesel engine oil for diesel engines, but there must be side affects from using gasoline engine oils in diesels. I had always assumed it would be wear issues. Apparently gasser lube oil cannot take the heat of the oil burners? Are there another points you're driving toward?

Dean.


What GordnadoCRD said is right.
Oil temp around turbo can be very hot, This can occur with gassers as well. High carbon levels eventually drop out especially when the oil cools overnight, so the carbon gunk in the oil galleries sticks to the walls. When you have large galleries with low flow there is plenty of oil to cause problem & then slow flows that dont strip the crud out. its a perfect storm, they design in large oil galleries to make them less likely to block, this in turn results in more crud settling out when the oil cools down.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
GordnadoCRD wrote:
Gas engine motor oils are formulated for suspending solvents and sludge.
Diesel engine motor oils are formulated for suspending carbon
Both are primary products of blow-by for each of these types of engines, and the additive packages are somewhat specific.
There are oils that are a little of both for people that want an oil to use with everything, and to some degree, they do, but except for yard machines and generic farm equipment I stay away from them anymore.

Thanks GordnadoCRD and layback40,

The last time I got this engine running I studied a little about the diesel SAE ratings. At that time I came away with some ratings are for newer engines with newer & different sensors that were protected by new additives in the oils. I had forgotten about sludge killing oils that loosened the carbons and maintained them in solution.

This is all a good lesson and reminder of using the right oil for your engine. Searching the Internet for SAE ratings is different than searching for specific diesel SAE ratings. I'll have to go back to the parts store and spend an hour searching specific SAE ratings for diesel oils.

Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
CaptainDean wrote:
The last time I got this engine running I studied a little about the diesel SAE ratings. At that time I came away with some ratings are for newer engines with newer & different sensors that were protected by new additives in the oils. I had forgotten about sludge killing oils that loosened the carbons and maintained them in solution.

This is all a good lesson and reminder of using the right oil for your engine. Searching the Internet for SAE ratings is different than searching for specific diesel SAE ratings. I'll have to go back to the parts store and spend an hour searching specific SAE ratings for diesel oils.

Dean.

I'm willing to admit my mistake in "...studying about diesel SAE ratings..."

I found my notes when I studied a little about API oil classifications. Modern diesel engine oil classification CJ-4 is a highly recommended for our engines. I am starting to believe that GordnadoCRD and layback40 have uncovered a danger in "switching" to a highly recommended oil. IT CLEANS TOO GOOD.

Image
Image

It his highly probable that my engine had not been given proper care, thus causing excessive buildup of carbons and whatever. When I put it back into service I started using one of the correct oils. (Mobile 1 Diesel Truck 5W-40, Royal Purple Duralec 15W-40, or Shell Rotella T6 Synthetic Diesel 5W-40) I think I used the Mobile 1. It may have started to clean my engine from the inside and clog the finer orifices. Starting with the tiny hole in the Hydraulic Lash Adjusters, then the bearing journals. That is the same order that I started hearing noises; first the hydraulic valve adjusters clacking, then the rods knocking.

This concept is scary because I do not want to repeat it again. I think a trip to the machine shop for a good boiling is in order. Thanks for the education. Here is one of the earliest pictures I took right after getting this Jeep.
Image
This is the EGR pipe leading to the intake flow valve that I can never remember the correct name. [Edit: Flow Control Valve. Thanks GordnadoCRD]

Dean.
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
CaptainDean wrote:
This is the EGR pipe leading to the intake flow valve that I can never remember the correct name.
Dean.

You mean the Flow Control Valve (FCV)? :goink:


One other thing to be aware of, is that the API does not test every oil made for every possible specification.

When an oil manufacturer produces a motor oil targeted for a particular specified market segment, they PAY the API to test a production sample for that particular NEW specification. (ex: CJ, CK, etc)

whether or not it meets other specification (SI, SJ) is normally not tested.

Some oils do, such as Delo400 15w-40, but as testing is very expensive, most, do not.

One more thing, historically, when an oil package passes the latest designated government specification, (such as SN) it also passes all previous specifications. (SL, SK, SJ, etc.)
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
You've heard me mention massive yard work getting in the way of working on my engine, today was a rock issue.

I've been bringing in 3/4-minus Base Course gravel so I can get the pickup (2003 Chevy S-10 2WD) around the brewery, then up into the yard. Seems I wasn't quite ready to make the pass as one big-ass rock got in my way. If the gravel had not given way I would have cruised right over it. It only had a tip poking up through the ground at first. :dizzy:

In this picture, I had to build up the gravel under the wheels while digging a hole for the rock to fall into as I backed up.
Image
If you look hard, you can just make out the second tip of the rock in front of the axle.

Another 1-hour job turned into a half-day experience.

I should be able to get back to the engine on Fathers' Day. :BANANA:

Dean.
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