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Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87478		 Page 34 of 55
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Found a ground behind the left headlight. It's directly under a curved power steering cooling metal hose. It was connected although quite rusted. Cleaned it up and put the front end back together.

Started on a test drive but the engine would die with the transmission in Drive and a little pressure on the accelerator. This is the same conditions as when I let a local mechanic fix it. He contacted the Chrysler troubleshooter and discovered a ground not connected.

Monday I'll contact that auto repair shop and see if they'll give me the phone number and case number to Chrysler.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Went through the rest of the engine compartment seeking out grounds, and found them all, I think. Each needed a little cleaning so I did that. Still it runs the same.

So, I changed direction and started actual troubleshooting. Read the codes and there were a bunch. A set pointing at the EGR, which I have removed but not yet deleted it from the computer. Ignore them.

Several pointing toward the Oxygen Sensor which I don't remember connecting it.
Three pointing me toward the Fuel Temp which I don't have a plug that will fit there.
Two pointing toward the MAF sensor, which is connected.
One pointing toward the coolant temperature sensor.

I ordered a nice kit of multimeter test leads with an assortment of tips. I'll start checking the wiring for the Oxygen Sensor, the MAF sensor and the coolant temperature. This wire harness has been laid aside several times so I'm not surprised that I may have a couple parted connections.

Dean.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Forget the O2 sensor, the 2.8 CRD does not have any.
Forget the MAF code, its only function is to provide information to the ECM for the operation of the EGR valve and FCValve, both components of the EGR system.
The MAF will not affect the running of the engine or will it cause a "limp" mode.

One thought, are you sure you have the correct connector on the MAP sensor? There have be a couple of reports where it got mixed up with one of the other connectors of the same size in that area.

You may want to invest in a better scanner since you are getting an O2 DTC and should not be getting them on this vehicle. :wink:
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
WWDiesel wrote:
Forget the O2 sensor, the 2.8 CRD does not have any.
Forget the MAF code, its only function is to provide information to the ECM for the operation of the EGR valve and FCValve, both components of the EGR system.
The MAF will not affect the running of the engine or will it cause a "limp" mode.

One thought, are you sure you have the correct connector on the MAP sensor? There have be a couple of reports where it got mixed up with one of the other connectors of the same size in that area.

You may want to invest in a better scanner since you are getting an O2 DTC and should not be getting them on this vehicle. :wink:

Thanks WWDiesel,

I could not find any mention of the MAP Sensor for the diesel engine, only the gas engines. I'll bet you meant MAF.

The scanner I use is the INNOVA 30203, CarScan®-Code. I had understood it was a pretty good unit.

Erased the codes in the ECM and read the codes again. I'm now steady with P0403, P0183, P1140.
    P0403 is EGR system malfunction -- don't care.
    P0183 is Fuel Temp Circuit too high or low -- I'll have to check that.
    P1140 is EGR Airflow Control Valve -- don't care.
Anybody know what the ECM will do when fuel temp is out of range? Does it shut down the engine?

Dean.
Author:  layback40 [ Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
CaptainDean wrote:

I could not find any mention of the MAP Sensor for the diesel engine, only the gas engines. I'll bet you meant MAF.

The scanner I use is the INNOVA 30203, CarScan®-Code. I had understood it was a pretty good unit.

Erased the codes in the ECM and read the codes again. I'm now steady with P0403, P0183, P1140.
    P0403 is EGR system malfunction -- don't care.
    P0183 is Fuel Temp Circuit too high or low -- I'll have to check that.
    P1140 is EGR Airflow Control Valve -- don't care.
Anybody know what the ECM will do when fuel temp is out of range? Does it shut down the engine?

Dean.

Not sure how many wires are on the fuel temp sensor. If there are only 2, you could just put a suitable resistor between the wires. If you can read the resistance on another filter head it would make it easy.
Just about every temp sensor in cars is a RTK 4700 thermistor. 50c from an electronics store.
I replaced both the temp sensor thermistors in my XJ diesel. Just removed the folded over seal and pulled the thermistor out.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Well, now I'm at a loss. The engine won't start although it cranks nicely. I have fuel pressure up into the fuel rail and to the injectors.

Checked continuity through all four injectors and those seem fine. About 10 ohms.

The Auto Shut Down (ASD) circuit is puzzling. It seems I should get voltage through the ASD circuit to run the engine, but why remove power from the A/C Clutch relay and the Viscous Heater relay? Maybe it should be named the Normal Shut Down (NSD) that only unloads the engine in preparation for normal restarting.

Where do I check for troubleshooting instructions & clues to find starting problems ?

Dean.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
CaptainDean wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
Forget the O2 sensor, the 2.8 CRD does not have any.
Forget the MAF code, its only function is to provide information to the ECM for the operation of the EGR valve and FCValve, both components of the EGR system.
The MAF will not affect the running of the engine or will it cause a "limp" mode.
One thought, are you sure you have the correct connector on the MAP sensor? There have be a couple of reports where it got mixed up with one of the other connectors of the same size in that area.
You may want to invest in a better scanner since you are getting an O2 DTC and should not be getting them on this vehicle. :wink:

Thanks WWDiesel,
I could not find any mention of the MAP Sensor for the diesel engine, only the gas engines. I'll bet you meant MAF.
The scanner I use is the INNOVA 30203, CarScan®-Code. I had understood it was a pretty good unit.
Erased the codes in the ECM and read the codes again. I'm now steady with P0403, P0183, P1140.
    P0403 is EGR system malfunction -- don't care.
    P0183 is Fuel Temp Circuit too high or low -- I'll have to check that.
    P1140 is EGR Airflow Control Valve -- don't care.
Anybody know what the ECM will do when fuel temp is out of range? Does it shut down the engine?
Dean.

Dean,
No, I did not mean MAF and I do not have them mixed up!
MAF sensor is only used for EGR operation, it is worthless for engine operation or running otherwise. It is located behind in air cleaner box outlet just before the turbo intake boot.

The MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor is called a multitude of different things, but it's signal input to the ECM is essential and vital for the proper running and control of the 2.8 CRD engine. It is located/mounted on top of the combo intake manifold /valve cover at the rear of the engine.
This sensor allows the ECM to monitor air pressure within the intake manifold and is also used to monitor the incoming boosted intake air temperature.

In the Jeep FSM (factory service manual) you will only see it called or labeled a "Boost Pressure Sensor", but it is more than that, it also provides boosted intake air temperature data to the ECM. You will not see it called or labeled "MAP" sensor in the FSM, not sure why that is but the manufacture of the sensor, Bosch, calls it a MAP sensor.
Bosch calls it a: "Bosch 3.0 Bar T-Map Sensor" / PN 0 281 002 437
Some of the online Mopar vendors list it simply as a "temperature sensor", not sure why that is, but it is incorrect and misleading.

Mopar PN: 68031593AA
Description: AIR TEMPERATURE

If your scanner is giving you false or misleading data, that can be a problem... :banghead:
Author:  CaptainDean [ Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Thanks for the clarification on the MAP / Temp / Boost Pressure sensor.

I've decided to test continuity from the ECM connector to the various suspect parts: Fuel solenoid valve, engine coolant temp sensor, MAP / Boost Pressure Sensor.

Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
I think I've found the culprit for why the engine will not start. So far I think the Fuel Pressure Sensor on the fuel rail is not working. The ECM measures the Fuel Pressure Sensor to determine how much to open the Fuel Solenoid on the high pressure fuel injection pump.

Took off the fuel rail so I can have easy access to the Fuel Pressure Regulator and Fuel Pressure Sensor, and wiring harness & connectors.

Got dark by this time so I'll resume tomorrow after work.

Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Continued my troubleshooting today. Checked the voltages on each pin to sensors on the fuel rail and high pressure fuel pump. Everything checked out good.

Put the fuel rail back on, bled the fuel system and attempted a start. No joy.

There is a continuous and immediate 2294 code: Fuel Pressure Regulator, open circuit. There is no discrete fuel pressure regulator, only a group comprising the ECM, Fuel Pressure Sensor, Fuel Solenoid, an Fuel Quantity Solenoid.
Fuel Pressure Sensor reports pressure within the fuel rail.
Fuel Solenoid operated by Pulse Width Modulation signal from ECM regulates fuel into high pressure fuel pump.
Fuel Quantity Solenoid dumps excess fuel pressure at the back end of the fuel rail, which returns to the tank.

Replaced the fuel pressure sensor. No change
Read in the manual that if the Cam Position sensor fails while driving, the engine will continue, but will not start afterward. However, that is not part of the fuel pressure regulator montage.

I'd like to find a list of faults that will prevent the engine from starting.

Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
I've been scratching my head and digging through the wiring diagrams and connector pin-out tables. Finally put together a few corrections to the manual.

There are two Fuel Pressure Solenoids and the people who wrote the manual got them mixed up. One is the Fuel Pressure Solenoid and it's located at the back end of the fuel rail. The other is the Fuel Quantity Solenoid which is mounted on the High Pressure Fuel Pump. The last one related to the Malfunction Indication Fault code P2294 "Fuel Regulator circuit open".

Here are some corrections to the wiring diagrams that the rest of you may find helpful. The Fuel Quantity Solenoid was not depicted in the diesel wiring diagrams anywhere.

After discovering the connector pin-out information, here is the Fuel Quantity Solenoid for the wiring diagrams.
Image

The manual has the Fuel Quantity Solenoid incorrectly labeled as Fuel Pressure Solenoid.
Image

The manual has the Fuel Pressure Solenoid connector incorrectly labeled as the Fuel Quantity Solenoid connector.
Image

Tomorrow I hope to get down to some serious and meaningful troubleshooting.

Dean.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Yes there are several areas in the FSM that are lacking! But unfortunately, it is all we have. :banghead: :furious: :dizzy:

Have you looked or researched the 2006 FSM? It does have much better coverage on the Fuel Quantity (metering) Solenoid in both codes and wiring diagrams.
It, the 2006 FSM, also has a fairly good troubleshooting section covering all the fault codes listed below.
See Section 9, ENGINE DIESEL DIAG
starting on page 727 thru pages 740 (*CHECKING THE FUEL QUANTITY SOLENOID CIRCUITS)
Quote:
P0090-FUEL QUANTITY SOLENOID OPEN CIRCUIT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .pg. . 727
P0091-FUEL QUANTITY SOLENOID SHORT TO GROUND. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .pg. . 730
P0092-FUEL QUANTITY SOLENOID SHORT CIRCUIT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .pg. . 733
P0251-FUEL QUANTITY SOLENOID OPEN OR SHORT CIRCUIT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . pg. . 873
P0252-FUEL QUANTITY SOLENOID CIRCUIT MALFUNCTION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .pg. . 876
P0253-FUEL QUANTITY SOLENOID SHORT TO GROUND. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . pg. . 880
P0254-FUEL QUANTITY SOLENOID SHORT CIRCUIT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .pg. . 883

Although the wiring illustrated drawings showing locations are still a snafu when it comes to showing the correct location of the Fuel Quantity (metering) Solenoid.
But if you look in section 14, page 64, it shows the correct location for the Fuel Quantity Solenoid and gives a good description and covers operation in detail.

:SOMBRERO:
Author:  CaptainDean [ Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Thanks WWDiesel,

I did download and examine the 2006 Factory Service Manual (FSM). It included the very wires that I had to sniff out of the connector tables. It also has a huge amount of troubleshooting aids. The 2005 FSM is 2500 pages long, the 2006 is 6000 pages. Lots of good stuff.

Dean.
Author:  iakj11 [ Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
CaptainDean wrote:
The 2005 FSM is 2500 pages long, the 2006 is 6000 pages.


:dizzy: That is an eye opening observation. Thanks!
Author:  WWDiesel [ Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
iakj11 wrote:
CaptainDean wrote:
The 2005 FSM is 2500 pages long, the 2006 is 6000 pages.

:dizzy: That is an eye opening observation. Thanks!

Just be careful and do not let it mislead you if you are working on a 2005 model.
The electronics and communication protocol is totally different on the 2006 vs the 2005.
2006 models does not have a "Front Control Module" and their ABS system is totally different than a 2005.
Some things are the same, while some of the other electrical circuits are totally different and unique only to their respective year model.
Just use as a cross reference when researching....
BE VERY CAREFUL!!! :juggle: :wink:
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Thanks WWDiesel,

The differences between 2005 and 2006 are significant. Compared the 2005/2006 wiring from the ECM to Fuel Quantity Solenoid and back and they are different.
2005:
ECM Fuel Quantity Solenoid Supply (P1-28) to Fuel Quantity Solenoid (pin 1)
ECM Fuel Quantity Solenoid Control (P1-76) to Fuel Quantity Solenoid (pin 2)

2006:
ECM Fuel Quantity Solenoid Supply (P1-4) to Fuel Quantity Solenoid (pin 2), not pin 1
ECM Fuel Quantity Solenoid Control (P1-52) to Fuel Quantity Solenoid (pin 1), not pin 2

I've connected +12v & Ground to the solenoid in both directions and it energized each way.

Regarding my vehicle, I can check voltages along the solenoid wiring and I get +12 throughout the circuit. Definitely the ECM is not providing a path to ground to energize the solenoid. Examined the pins on the ECM and the wiring connectors and all seems fine. No bent pins, no pushed back pin sockets.

Maybe I should check the current going through the solenoid; maybe the current draw is not enough to make a change in the voltage.

I think the next step is to reload the programming on the ECM and see what happens.

Any comments out there?

Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Which WiFi OBD2 adapter should I get? I don't want to spend $100 but I will if necessary.

Which Android smartphone app should I get? Like to stay with a free download if possible.

I need to scan for codes and clear them. I also need to delete the EGR system. I may like to display Fuel Pressure. Who knows what after that.

If I need to use a laptop, I can do that.

Went through the P2294 troubleshooting section in the 2006 Factory Service Manual. (BTW, it uses the 2005 wiring pin-outs) It led me down the path to find every part of the Fuel Quantity Solenoid and Fuel Pressure Solenoid circuits are good. In the end, it had me short the Fuel Pressure Solenoid connector pins together to simulate the P2295 fault. My Innova Car Scan wired OBD2 scanner it didn't find it.

So, just as WWDiesel suggested early on, I should get a new OBD2 adapter. I do have a WiFi version of the VeePeak but it isn't working anymore. My smartphone app Torque Lite would not find it. Downloaded 3 others and they didn't find it either.

Dean.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
CaptainDean, I possess two hand held scanners and one Bluetooth device, I use them for different needs. I have an Innova, a Actron, and a OBDMX Bluetooth device.

When it comes to scanners, purchase the best one you can afford or that fits your needs and your budget.
The better the scanner and the more tasks & functions it can perform, the more expensive it gets in cost.
You can spend anywhere from a few hundred dollars up to several thousand dollars for a state of the art scanner.
But at the end of the day, you always have to ask yourself, how much info do I really need from one and how often do I plan to use it.
My scanners sets in a tool box most of the time, unused. But my Actron Elite Pro is my go to when I need to do any serious diagnostics.
Any of the three will provide a DTC PCode and / or reset a DTC.
Keep in mind though, the Jeep Liberty is not real scanner friendly for communicating with some of it's modules. :banghead: :furious:

You will find there are many varied opinions on the best scanner for the money on this forum and elsewhere, best of luck in your choice! :wink:
Author:  CaptainDean [ Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Arriving home from work today I spotted my 3rd code scanner hiding in plain site. It's been riding with me in the Ford Ranger on the console for about a few months. This one is an ELM 327 Bluetooth Interface. I'll try it tomorrow with Torque Lite on a Windows XP laptop. and with my Android smartphone.

Dean.
Author:  CaptainDean [ Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
Messed around with all three code scanners and got all of them to work. Just had to 'forget' everything in Bluetooth and re-pair it. Also had to make adjustments in Torque Lite to make it look for a Bluetooth interface. Same routine for the WiFi code scanner.

All of them came up with the same codes: EGR system (which is removed) and Open Circuit in Fuel Regulator. I've checked the vehicle wiring for the fuel regulator circuits and they test good. The final part of the circuits are inside the ECU. Took it out, warmed the back and opened the lid. It does have continuity from the Fuel Regulator pins to the circuit board, so maybe the Control inputs are bad on the computer chips. There are no obvious burned components.

Are there places that would test an ECU prior to me purchasing one outright to [hopefully] fix the Jeep?

I see refurbished ECUs on the Internet for $195 guaranteed but I have not called them yet. I'm expecting $195 will be for the gasoline engine ECUs, and the diesel ECUs will be $500. Has anybody tried these ECUs?

Dean.
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