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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:12 am 
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That's one Item I wouldn't take a chance on, especially the exhaust valves.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:00 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Be sure and review this LOST thread! There are different pistons/weights and they are NOT interchangeable! There are 2 different types of piston/rings used on this motor.
viewtopic.php?f=98&t=83326

nothingbutchryslers and mountainman -- are you guys still out there? Since you've rebuilt your engines already, I would like to hear from you. Thanks for all the good information you already shared.

It is a dark and stormy night tonight, so I finally had a chance to completely read nothingbutchryslers' thread. It was quite informative; now I understand the 0.095" and 0.125" predicament. It is really odd that IDParts is misnomer'ing the "ring gap" nomenclature.

Tomorrow I'll measure the thickness (height) of the top ring. Just from memory, I don't think it is a full 1/8" ...as though I have calibrated eyes. :shock:

Regarding piston weight, nothingbutchryslers weighed the possibilities of filing a little off the new pistons if they were heavier. He did not say whether the new ones really were heavier or lighter. In the end, he could have filed the old pistons if the new ones were actually lighter.

My alternative take is replacing pistons in opposing pairs. At least two new pistons would counter balance each other.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:20 am 
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CaptainDean wrote:
Tomorrow I'll measure the thickness (height) of the top ring. Just from memory, I don't think it is a full 1/8" ...as though I have calibrated eyes. :shock:

Pulled out the old micrometer that I bought in Jr. College, 1 year after high school. It's 46 years old but still works great. I've kept it in the original plastic box with a light oily cloth ever since.

The top ring is not 0.095" nor 0.125" thick; it's 0.112" and the piston groove is slightly larger. This means I should be able to buy a complete set of rings through IDParts. This engine had a lot of blow by so I'm anticipating a new set of rings will stop that. The cylinder walls still look good and still have the original cross-hatch scoring - and no ridges at the top of the cylinders.

The evidence doesn't really add up for 95K miles. I wonder if this engine has been rebuilt and somebody put new sleeves and the wrong rings. Could that be possible? ...or maybe these sleeves are much harder than the old cast blocks of older American engines.

Just for grins, I stopped at the Jeep dealer here in Kona. One piston through Jeep is $526. An entire engine is $8000 plus $3000 core plus $800 freight to Hawaii. The core has to be a complete and sound engine. Good thing I was not pining for a new engine.

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2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:06 am 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
CaptainDean wrote:
This engine had a lot of blow by so I'm anticipating a new set of rings will stop that. The cylinder walls still look good and still have the original cross-hatch scoring - and no ridges at the top of the cylinders.

The evidence doesn't really add up for 95K miles. I wonder if this engine has been rebuilt and somebody put new sleeves and the wrong rings. Could that be possible? ...or maybe these sleeves are much harder than the old cast blocks of older American engines.

143700 on mine when I bought it and tore it down to the short block. No ridge and perfectly visible crosshatch on all 4. I figure it's more of a characteristic of a diesel. Even though the auto diesel today has less lubricating properties than in the past, It's still not the straight up solvent nature of gasoline, so they don't suffer the kind of wear that is characteristic of gas engines.

Did you check the ring edge clearance to the groove? If that's in spec on the one(s) you buy, I wouldn't worry too much about the precise thickness. [edit] If you buy 2 in the interest of balance, just make sure to use the 2nd one in #4 cylinder. You probably already knew that, but I just wanted to make sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:01 am 
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CaptainDean wrote:
This engine had a lot of blow by so I'm anticipating a new set of rings will stop that.
That's actually normal on this engine; most of it isn't actually blow by, but exhaust from the vacuum pump (which exhausts into the crankcase).

LOST JEEPS • View topic - Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:51 am 
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joe_ wrote:
CaptainDean wrote:
This engine had a lot of blow by so I'm anticipating a new set of rings will stop that.
That's actually normal on this engine; most of it isn't actually blow by, but exhaust from the vacuum pump (which exhausts into the crankcase).

LOST JEEPS • View topic - Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby

X2, and why many install a ProVent filter to keep the oil vapors out of the intake system... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:16 am 
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Thanks everyone for ramming that subject home again. I needed a second beating.

The link to WWDiesel's thread that joe_ shared had a great writeup by gmcdt about sources of blowby and sources of other air cycling through the crankcase. That thread also had a great explanation of comparing cylinder wear between diesel and gasoline engines.

I'm smarter today than I was yesterday. Thanks everyone.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


Last edited by CaptainDean on Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:24 am 
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I measured the ring gap today.

Cylinder 1 = .016", .40mm
Cylinder 2 = .020", .50mm
Cylinder 3 - damaged sleeve
Cylinder 4 = .019", .48mm

[edit] 2.8L Service Manual gives ring gap tolerances as,
"...The ring gap measurement must be made with the ring positioning at least 12 mm (0.50 in.) from bottom of cylinder bore (Fig. 99)... ...Top compression ring gap .30 to .45mm (.0118 to .0177 in.)... "

They must have meant "...from top of cylinder bore..."

Figure 99
Image

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


Last edited by CaptainDean on Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:37 am 
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Anybody know how to 'read' piston tops? There is always information about gasoline engines and reading the spark plugs to get an idea of the health of the engine. There must be similar information about diesel engines.

Cylinder #1 is on the left, then #2, #3, #4 on the right.
Image
#1 has an exhaust manifold leak. That end of the exhaust manifold gasket was blacked with soot and the lamination separated. I'll have the exhaust manifold shaved so it mates perfectly.

#2 is slightly beat up and had a small piece of something lodged at the edge at the 10 o`clock location. The machinist will probably tell me something about it when he gives me a list of parts to buy. I didn't notice any damage on the cylinder wall, but I'll examine it closely tomorrow.

The head gasket did not show any signs of leakage throughout the entire length. I did, however notice #4 cylinder sleeve not exactly flat all around. I should pull that sleeve and re-install it.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


Last edited by CaptainDean on Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Looks like to me #2 was either running a little to rich or getting some oil on top of the piston?
As to the foreign particle stuck to the top of the piston on #2, can you tell if it is metal or ceramic? Was #2 glow plug missing of its tip? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:44 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Was #2 glow plug missing of its tip? :roll:

I didn't look at the glow plugs. The head is at the machine shop, I probably won't hear anything for 3 weeks. But I do have a picture of the head. I've cropped & saved the picture 4 times, one for each cylinder. Looks like you called it right, WWDiesel. You win a dancing banana. :BANANA:

Cylinder #1 (Exhaust manifold leaky gasket, ring gap .016")
Image

Cylinder #2 (No tip on glow plug, ring gap .020")
Image

Cylinder #3 (Mashed to smitherines, hole broken into sleeve)
Image

Cylinder #4 (Seems normal, ring gap .019")
Image

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:47 am 
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Over the holiday weekend I have been getting all the parts cleaned up and painted. Almost finished, ran out of the final coat paint. I'll be ordering parts this week and it looks like it may be a $3200 rebuild. I could do more but it just seems like gilding the lily.

In the meantime, I'm curious about the labels on the front of the engine. One is certainly the block serial number. So I am guessing another is the configuration of the engine (EGR, A/C, bla bla bla). What is the third one?

And, do you think there is some relevance to the raised artistic letters? OuI, or (OuI), or COuIS.
Image

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:56 am 
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Mopar Part No.: 53014014AB -- ENGINE-COMPLETE (*discontinued)

The other two bar code numbers did not Google any matches!

The "I" & "O" stamped into the cover are most likely for "Inlet" & "Outlet"?

:SOMBRERO:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:09 pm 
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CaptainDean wrote:
In the meantime, I'm curious about the labels on the front of the engine. One is certainly the block serial number. So I am guessing another is the configuration of the engine (EGR, A/C, bla bla bla). What is the third one?
One of those is apparently the injector codes:
MrMopar64 wrote:
There is a barcode label on the front of the black timing cover. It has 24 digits written on it underneath the barcode on the label, 6 per injector and it's listed in physical order (1-4, front to back).

The injector codes are also written on the very flat top of the solenoid body. It should be alphanumeric (something like 7AI8HN for example).
source: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=51230


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:21 pm 
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joe_ wrote:
CaptainDean wrote:
In the meantime, I'm curious about the labels on the front of the engine. One is certainly the block serial number. So I am guessing another is the arraingement of the engine (EGR, A/C, bla bla bla). What is the third one?

One of those is apparently the injector codes:
MrMopar64 wrote:
There is a barcode label on the front of the black timing cover. It has 24 digits written on it underneath the barcode on the label, 6 per injector and it's listed in physical order (1-4, front to back). The injector codes are also written on the very flat top of the solenoid body. It should be alphanumeric (something like 7AI8HN for example).

source: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=51230

Thanks joe_,

That checks out. The 24-digit label is: AI83AI81HYFS81Z26E7RG85E and #3 injector is 81Z26E.

This will help me ensure I get the injectors back in the right holes. It seems then, that the computer is programmed to control the time each injector squirts. That would explain why the engine runs so smoothly.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:01 am 
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Thanks WWDiesel and joe_,

That explains all three stickers.
  • Engine serial number: 32C77115
  • Complete engine p/n: 53014014AB
  • Injector installation: AI83AI81HYFS81Z26E7RG85E

Now I can clean and paint that front panel.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:50 am 
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CaptainDean wrote:
Thanks WWDiesel and joe_,
That explains all three stickers.
  • Engine serial number: 32C77115
  • Complete engine p/n: 53014014AB
  • Injector installation: AI83AI81HYFS81Z26E7RG85E
Now I can clean and paint that front panel.
Dean.

Thanks Joe & Dean, that is very good information to know on the engine serial number and injector installation code!
But unfortunately, two of the stickers on my cover are so worn that only the PN 53014014AC one is still fully readable. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:38 am 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
If (when?) you replace the cylinder 3 injector, the new injector will have it's own identification code on the top. Make sure to have your ECM programmed to the new injector ID. Dealerships or GDE can help you with this.

Quote:
(Refer to 14 - FUEL SYSTEM - WARNING) There are individual fuel injectors (1) for all cylinders. Each injector nozzle has seven holes (2). The fuel injectors are used to spray fuel into the Combustion chamber. Each injector has a six digit alphanumeric code on the injector top which identifies it’s calibration. This number must be entered into to ECM using the scan tool. Specific moving parts inside the injector are graphite coated to assist with the lubrication process.


Quote:
INJECTOR CLASSIFICATION NOTE:
Fuel Injectors have different flow rates. When ALL injectors are removed, re-enter all injector six digit codes. If more than one injector is replaced, remove the injector sticker on the front of the timing cover. Classified injectors can be recognized by the six digit alpha-numeric code (2) on the magnetic head. The code corresponds to the classification stage. The classification stage may be checked against the fuel injector identification sticker (1) on the front of the timing cover. Number one cylinder will be the first six digits, number two cylinder will be the second six digits, and
so on.
The classification of injectors describes the fuel flow quantity characteristic of the injector. This will make it possible in the future to match the engine software to the tolerances of the injector within a more narrowly graduated range.
Classification can be clearly recognized, and assigned only by means of a scan tool. These general conditions equally apply if, as a result of replacing an engine, carrying out repairs to the cylinder head etc., the cylinder selective assignment of the injectors or the engine control module assignment may have changed. If proper attention is not paid to the classification on these vehicles driveability and smoking concerns could result.
If an injector is replaced, it is then necessary to assign the classification code to the corresponding cylinder in the engine control module with the appropriate scan tool.
INJECTOR CLASSIFICATION PROCEDURE
1. Turn ignition switch “ON”.
2. Using the scan tool, select ENGINE then MISCELLANEOUS.
3. Select LEARN INJECTORS.
4. Using the up and down arrows, scroll to the appropriate injector.
5. Using the right and left arrows, set injector to proper classification code.
6. Once injectors are classified, cycle ignition to complete.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:20 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
CaptainDean wrote:
Thanks WWDiesel and joe_,
That explains all three stickers.
  • Engine serial number: 32C77115
  • Complete engine p/n: 53014014AB
  • Injector installation: AI83AI81HYFS81Z26E7RG85E
Now I can clean and paint that front panel.
Dean.

Thanks Joe & Dean, that is very good information to know on the engine serial number and injector installation code!
But unfortunately, two of the stickers on my cover are so worn that only the PN 53014014AC one is still fully readable. :roll:

Fortunately you still have the engine Part Number sticker. The other two you can re-create. Certainly you already know the engine serial number is immediately above the driver's side motor mount. Also, you can copy the 6-digit codes off the injectors. (Good luck reading them :dizzy: without removing the injectors.) I used a Jeweler's Loop to read mine -- tiny black letters on black plastic. You can download bar code printing patches for your computer. A little studying can direct you to the right bar code format.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard to find noise -- clinking and clanking
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:32 am 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
If (when?) you replace the cylinder 3 injector, the new injector will have it's own identification code on the top. Make sure to have your ECM programmed to the new injector ID. Dealerships or GDE can help you with this.

Quote:
(Refer to 14 - FUEL SYSTEM - WARNING) There are individual fuel injectors (1) for all cylinders. Each injector nozzle has seven holes (2). The fuel injectors are used to spray fuel into the Combustion chamber. Each injector has a six digit alphanumeric code on the injector top which identifies it’s calibration. This number must be entered into to ECM using the scan tool. Specific moving parts inside the injector are graphite coated to assist with the lubrication process.


Quote:
INJECTOR CLASSIFICATION NOTE:
Fuel Injectors have different flow rates. When ALL injectors are removed, re-enter all injector six digit codes. If more than one injector is replaced, remove the injector sticker on the front of the timing cover. Classified injectors can be recognized by the six digit alpha-numeric code (2) on the magnetic head. The code corresponds to the classification stage. The classification stage may be checked against the fuel injector identification sticker (1) on the front of the timing cover. Number one cylinder will be the first six digits, number two cylinder will be the second six digits, and
so on.
The classification of injectors describes the fuel flow quantity characteristic of the injector. This will make it possible in the future to match the engine software to the tolerances of the injector within a more narrowly graduated range.
Classification can be clearly recognized, and assigned only by means of a scan tool. These general conditions equally apply if, as a result of replacing an engine, carrying out repairs to the cylinder head etc., the cylinder selective assignment of the injectors or the engine control module assignment may have changed. If proper attention is not paid to the classification on these vehicles driveability and smoking concerns could result.
If an injector is replaced, it is then necessary to assign the classification code to the corresponding cylinder in the engine control module with the appropriate scan tool.
INJECTOR CLASSIFICATION PROCEDURE
1. Turn ignition switch “ON”.
2. Using the scan tool, select ENGINE then MISCELLANEOUS.
3. Select LEARN INJECTORS.
4. Using the up and down arrows, scroll to the appropriate injector.
5. Using the right and left arrows, set injector to proper classification code.
6. Once injectors are classified, cycle ignition to complete.

Thanks GordnadoCRD,

I wondered if there might be a difference between injectors. Now I see it is a much bigger deal but the engine will run smoother with all the injectors plugged into software. Do you suppose the 3 original injectors might not issue the same amount of fuel after 96000 miles? However, I'll bet a good fuel systems shop can re-calibrate all my injectors for the cost of a weekend trip to Disney World.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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