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 Post subject: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:39 pm 
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I am going to be replacing the spacer lift that was on my KJ when I bought it with OME Shocks and Springs front and rear. If I need to add a bit to the front to level it out is there any difference between using a top plate spacer or a clevis lift? In other words do they effect anything (alignment) differently depending on which you use?

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:45 pm 
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EGF ? As in East Grand Forks maybe?

After doing the Franky on mine, the rear is the end that is .5" lower. If your front is, I would think the 2" washers on the clevis would be quickest to level it out.

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:54 pm 
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Adding space in the clevis with conduit nuts (or anything else that fits) or adding the same amount of top plate spacer will yield you the same increase in height. It will add almost twice what you space it. So a 3/8" plate would give nearly 3/4, and 3 conduit nuts would probably give you about the same.

Nice thing about a top plate spacer is that you can keep your clevis completely engaged with the strut end, as intended. Or, if you want more lift, you can keep it engaged as much as possible by using the minimum amount of conduit nuts.

Any increase or decrease in your height will require an alignment. Equal amounts of lifting from either of these methods will have the exact same effect on your alignment, springs, CV angles, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:50 pm 
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what boiler said

plus its a good idea, but not entirely manditory (depending on how it was aligned initially) to get it realigned after the coils settle for a 1k or so

good news is, even with stock UCA's if you still run stock uca's, they're still very alignable, there's apparently a pretty good amount of adjustment available in the LCA cam bolts

mine was aligned right after i lifed with OME, extra rear iso's and 3 conduit nuts in the front, i never got it realigned because after it settled it actually was better aligned that it was initally

about 15-20k later i put jba 4.5 uca's on it and got it realigned and the alignment isn't quite as good as it was before, but.. the guy that aligned it probably didn't do a great job so i'll just get it aligned again at a better shop after i finish putting new sway bar links/bushings and tie rods on it

after the initial lift and alignment, i had some slight cupping on the inside edge of my front tires, which as it settled smoothed out and went away entirely

i'm not real good about rotating my tires either :oops:

but at 30Kish miles they're all wearing rather evenly but i wouldn't suggest that course of action :P

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:57 pm 
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Like mentioned above can run either same effect or even both, I have ran a 3/8 inch top plate along with a "few" conduit nuts for a clevis with no problems

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:06 am 
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95BadBoy wrote:
EGF ? As in East Grand Forks maybe?

After doing the Franky on mine, the rear is the end that is .5" lower. If your front is, I would think the 2" washers on the clevis would be quickest to level it out.


Yes, East Grand Forks is the EGF in the name.

Thanks guys for the info. I want to eliminate as many surprises as I can and this forum and the people on it are a great resource.

Thanks Again.


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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:25 pm 
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KJinEGF wrote:
95BadBoy wrote:
EGF ? As in East Grand Forks maybe?

After doing the Franky on mine, the rear is the end that is .5" lower. If your front is, I would think the 2" washers on the clevis would be quickest to level it out.


Yes, East Grand Forks is the EGF in the name.

Thanks guys for the info. I want to eliminate as many surprises as I can and this forum and the people on it are a great resource.

Thanks Again.




Ha ha, I saw your rig about a month or more ago, sitting by Crown Motors on Gateway Drive - on the west side of the building. Small planet this is. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:51 pm 
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But using a spring lift + clevis lift= no need for extra bumpstops however plate+ spring lift= requires bumpstops as you're going to cause the strut to overcompress, which will not occur with only spaces UNDER the strut

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:22 am 
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I believe he is asking about a top plate spacer like the one shown here that I make. It goes between the strut top plate and the body mount and in no way precompresses the spring like some of the plastic spacers that go inside the spring & strut assembly. Personally I don't think binding the spring to be in a certain position permanently makes any sense if you can avoid it, as it is effectively the same as having one big spacer like the daystar plus a short spring. The OP is not talking about that though, I don't believe. I believe he is talking about this:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:38 am 
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Which I do also. That infact, is acting just like a OTT spacer lift. which causes the requirement of a longer bumpstop. If it was a spring lift or a spring + clevis lift the full compression of the strut would be the same point that OE is which is what the struts we use are designed for. Which is why if you are NOT stacking the coils in away a longer bumpstop is not need for a coil lift. I have no idea why this idea has spread like wild fire.

Any form of a OTT space lowers the strut mounting plate there for once the A-arm hits the OE bumpstop the strut will have taken the full impact of the suspension not the bumpstop.

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:45 am 
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What????? You need longer bumpstops no matter what, cheap insurance if nothing else, the rest of it??????? :? :? :? :? :?
I think you are confused somewhat

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:51 am 
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No, you don't need them...

Explain why if there is NO stacking there is a need for bumpstops if you're not using a OTT spacer. As ppl say the sagging is caused by coil to coil contact. If that idea changes to one that says it's caused say by increased compression beyond a manufactor's max compression spec then fine. But we'd need to have that data. Being the HD springs are only designed to be a 1.5" lift and then compressed in suspension travel I really doubt we're over compressing them with a stock weight libby

If I recall everyone ran coil lifts on the kj before terra flex... Heck that was the reason used at the time to not by a spacer lift because the need to limit up travel of the suspension. No one talked about sagging coils or harsh rides on spacerlifts being the reason

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:03 am 
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What do you mean NO Stacking? You can have stacking if you do not use a bumpstop .
Rule of thumb for years was inch of lift inch of bumpstop
there was a reason they started to make bumpstops , why do you think that was? Because they are needed in most all cases if not to prevent stacking then to also keep the tires from ripping off flares. Bumpstops are very beneficial.
I blew out one front strut and one rear shock right after I installed my lift , maybe had 2500 miles on it. At that point is when I started hunting , rear was easy, front not so much until Teraflex .

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:20 am 
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Here this can be my last post on this thread.. But I've thought this way through the whole debate so. PM me to prove it to me otherwise. Quoted from another individual.. Respect you Tom, you've helped a lot but on this I disagree.

Just posted this over on LOST. I guess it fits perfect here too.


Well, Someone said that if you want the truth, get it straight from the source. Sooooo. I decided to ask ARB aka OME their thought about the usage of extended bumpstops. I think we can all agree that they would be considered the experts in this field. Right?

Here is my original message to them...
---------------------------------------
I have a technical question regarding the usage of the OME 927 springs to lift the Jeep Liberty. There is a large community of KJ owners at lostkjs.com which frequently have questions regarding lifting the KJ. It is generally accepted that the OME springs are hands-down the best, and most reliable long-term lift option for our KJs. However, there is always a debate around whether or not extended bumpstops are needed, required, or just a good safety net. For simplicity sake, I am limiting this to front suspension of the KJ.

Using the OME lift, OME 927 springs and NS131 shocks are used. No bumpstops are provided with this lift. Hear-say says that the reason no bumpstops are needed is because the OME front shocks have a bumpstop built into the shock internally. Is this true?

Another popular combination is the OME 927 springs and Rancho RSX 17505 shocks. In this case it is generally said that extended bumpstops be used to keep from over compressing or stacking the OME springs.

So the basic question I am asking is:

1. Does over compressing or stacking the OME springs weaken them, cause them to sag over time, lead to early failure, or cause added fatigue on the springs? (being an engineer myself, I know this answer, but would like to relay it directly from the manufacturer to others in this community that do not understand spring dynamics)

2. What is the designed minimum compressed length of the OME 927 springs? By this I mean the maximum compression not to exceed on a regular basis without causing permanant deformation of the springs.

Here is one of the many discussions regarding this bumpstop dilemma: http://www.lostkjs.com/forum/phpBB2/...=410789#410789 Although the picture shown here has a spacer lift, I would assume that the same concept applies when adding longer springs such as the OME 927's.

Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this subject.
----------------------------------------------
I quickly got a response from Marc. The same guy Tom had mentioned earlier. He is a tech specialist for Arb. But he didn't know the exact answer to the depth of design that I wanted, so he passed it on to engineering. Here is their reply - directly from the senior design engineer of OME spings.
---------------------------------
By adding a spring spacer without a bump stop spacer, you are creating a situation where you may over compress the spring. In the worst case, the spring will go solid before the bump stop has been contacted. The factory spring has been designed to work from its free height through ride height to minimum compressed height so that stresses do not exceed the limit of the spring material.

By adding the spring spacer without a bump stop spacer, you are increasing the deflection of the spring before the suspension bottoms out on the bump stop. As you increase spring deflection, you increase stress. You may increase stress to the point where the stress is higher than the limit for that spring material. In this situation, the spring will sag, lose height, or fail.

When designing the OME spring, we calculate the maximum stress that spring design will encounter when it is compressed past maximum bump stop compression. We use a high stress material to produce OME springs. This means the material can withstand very high stresses before it gets to the point where it will sag and lose height.

The amount of stress the spring experiences can be altered by changing wire diameter, spring body diameter and number of coils. Of course altering these variables also changes the spring rate, free height, and solid height. The spring rate needs to be correct to carry the load. The free height needs to be right to give the correct ride height and long enough so that the spring does not become untrapped and fall out at the full extension of the strut or shock. The solid height is also important. If the spring has too many coils or wire diameter is too thick, the spring will go solid before contacting the bump stop.

By adding a spring spacer to the factory spring and a bump stop spacer of the same thickness, the factory spring will not experience any greater stress than with the factory setup (so spring spacers or bump stop spacers). In this situation you have higher ride height but the same up travel or compression as the factory setup. With the OME spring you have the benefit of lift and extra travel as we do not require fitting a bump stop spacer to prevent the spring being overstressed.

Marc your customers should be confident that the maximum stress the spring will encounter when correctly installed for its intended application will be within the maximum stresses the material can handle.

Senior Design Engineer
Old Man Emu
ARB Corporation Limited
------------------------------------------------
Now, all of that being said, I guess if you use OME springs alone to lift your KJ, then you don't need extended bumpstops. They say that they have designed the OME springs to allow for increased travel. No need to limit it by adding extended bumpstops.

But... From what they said, if you are installing a spacer lift (and this would include the OMEs when used in a Frankie) extended bumpstops are needed to prevent over compressing the springs.
--------------------------------
And for not using HD coils on a stock rig, I beg to differ there too. The warning that ARB states regarding this is that if you use HD coils on a "stock" rig, your KJ will ride higher than designed. Therefore, the CV angles MAY (but not necessarily WILL) be too steep and cause problems. But will the HD coils stack or over compress under the same flex as MD or LD coils? Nope.
---------------------------------
There you have it. Let the horse beating begin....

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:43 am 
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I don't think most people suggest the use of extended bumpstops to prevent overstressing of the spring, but to prevent over compression and bottoming out of the shock, and to prevent larger tires from binding against the bodywork. If my 32's were to get shoved as high into the wheel well as the stock bumpstop would allow then they would no longer be able to turn and I would without a doubt rip off the fender flares.

It doesn't matter how you lift the vehicle, whether with springs or spacers or a combination, every inch of lift you add is another inch the UCA has to travel to reach the bumpstop.

I suppose if you kept stock size tires and lifted only with springs and used a shock that has a longer stroke than the full travel range of the suspension then you could get away with using the stock bumpstops.

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:22 pm 
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Certainly if you never encounter a situation where you fully compress your springs, you do not need to have longer bumpstops. Your average mall parking lot is what I am thinking here. But for decades, the 1" lift = 1" bumsptop increase has been the rule of thumb.

To me, the tech guy answered a specific set of questions about a specific set up that left out 1/2 of the claims originally put forth in the earlier post.

Use just the OME springs and whatever shocks you want, and you will probably improve ride & handling. But the limited gain in the tire clearance department makes this a money-waster for those wanting off-road ability. I run the 927's + a 3/8" spacer and 245/75's barely clear. That is not a big tire and not a huge jump from the stockers. I don't want to "lift" my vehcile to run the same size tire and not increase the ground clearance at the lowest point, which is about what an OME only set-up would allow for.

Besides, bumpstops is cheap insurance.....

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:06 pm 
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exactly,

20 friggin bucks or whatever versus several hundred dollar flares or shocks

pretty easy decision considering the limited fender space we have in the front and the general desire to run something larger than a 235/70

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:12 pm 
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I for one never said anything about bumpstops being needed or not. Here we are discussing the differences between spacers that go between the top plate and the body mount versus a clevis lift. There are no differences between the two in the eyes of the other suspension components. The only thing that could be a little different is the cost and the amount of grip between the clevis and the strut, which if you stick to just a few conduit nuts or less is inconsequential.

However, you said

Dave08 wrote:
But using a spring lift + clevis lift= no need for extra bumpstops however plate+ spring lift= requires bumpstops as you're going to cause the strut to overcompress, which will not occur with only spaces UNDER the strut


Besides not being what he asked, it is also not true. Clevis and top plate spacer lifts have the exact same effect on the compression of the spring...basically none! But yes, they will require bumpstop modification.

Lets consider a setup (#1) of a spring that by design is allowed to travel 8" (for example) before it is overstressed causing a permanent deformation. If you add no spacers (inside or outside of the assembly) and no clevis lift, lets assume (from your email with OME) that the springs are designed to not reach their permanent damage length before contact is made with the stock bumpstop. Great, no longer bumpstops needed. (this is just for argument sake)

Now for setup #2: add my top plate to #1, giving you an additional 3/4" lift. The spring will have to compress 3/4" more before it hits the bumpstop which means we need longer bumpstops or we jeopardize the spring.

Now, for setup #3: add clevis lifting to #1. Lets assume 3/8" of clevis spacing, netting about 3/4" of lift. The spring will have to compress 3/4" more before it hits the bumpstop, which means we need longer bumpstops or we jeopardize the spring, just like in #2!

Adding both lifting methods will require an even longer bumpstop. Even with a clevis lift, you're adding room to move the wheel up, possibly compressing the spring farther, therefore needing more bumpstop. I agree, it would be great to have longer springs & struts than the OME/RANCHO, about another 1/2" would be great. It would reduce the amount of spacers you needed to put in there, and reduce the chance of overcompressing the springs (ie: increase the travel distance allowable).

Maybe you can get away with no bumpstop extension with JUST adding OME + rancho, I can't argue that either way. Not many do that lift though, and nobody asked about it. He's asking the difference between top plate spacer lift and clevis lift. And we're telling him that the rest of the suspension / alignment do not care which is done or what combination. The total length of spacing done on either end of the spring assembly is really all that matters.

InCommando wrote:
Certainly if you never encounter a situation where you fully compress your springs, you do not need to have longer bumpstops. Your average mall parking lot is what I am thinking here. But for decades, the 1" lift = 1" bumsptop increase has been the rule of thumb.


I agree with you in principle, just not in theory. Springs aren't "ok unless they are fully compressed". In design they have a maximum deflection recommendation that is the point at which they start to take on a permanent deformation. This is not just when they are fully compressed, it is often around 70% compressed. That isn't a rule of thumb %, just an observed approximate percentage from using spring catalogs in designs at work. They all tell you compressed length, and also design length or "not to exceed" length, which is the point at which springs start to break down.

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:20 pm 
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Boiler wrote:
I agree with you in principle, just not in theory. Springs aren't "ok unless they are fully compressed". In design they have a maximum deflection recommendation that is the point at which they start to take on a permanent deformation. This is not just when they are fully compressed, it is often around 70% compressed. That isn't a rule of thumb %, just an observed approximate percentage from using spring catalogs in designs at work. They all tell you compressed length, and also design length or "not to exceed" length, which is the point at which springs start to break down.


Good info

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 Post subject: Re: Top Plate Spacer VS. Clevis Lift
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:25 pm 
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Dave08 and others
This is about the 20th go around of this conversation over the years
also about the 10th time someone says they contacted Marc at ARB

WELL GUESS WHAT I DID AS WELL over 4 YEARS AGO :wink:
his answer then was a cover our ARB butts statement, using OME springs and OME shocks you should not have to use a bumpstop. Well yes since you are only doing a 1.5 inch lift, anymore and it voids the warranty due to .........drumroll please, POSSIBLY OVER COMPRESSING THE SPRINGS
How many have a 1.5 inch lift on here or any site ? 1 or 2 % I bet is all

Oh well after over 30 years of lifting all kinds of junk, I know what works well and will continue to do what I think is the right way.

Plus I have Boiler on my side! :goink:

One thing great about being older, you've seen a bunch of younguns come and go :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :pepper: :BANANA: :BANANA: :BANANA: :ROTFL: :ROTFL: :ROTFL: :ROTFL:

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