Dealership ECU Reflash? GDE EcoTune seems to be gone.

ShaqDiesel · **Posted:** Fri May 22, 2015 9:43 pm

While away on business in San Diego, I had my fiance take my CRD in to the local Jeep/Dodge dealership to get the timing belt done (using ID Parts kit). All seemed to be well, but when I got home a month later I noticed three things:

1) The mileage decreased on the CRD. With the Ecotune I consistently got 28-29 highway miles and about 25-26 in the city. I am now getting 24-25 highway and 21-23 city. These are the exact MPG stats I got before the Ecotune.

2) Visible smoke at fast acceleration. When pressing hard on the pedal, black smoke plumes out behind the CRD. This is exactly what happened before the Ecotune.

3) A lack of turbo response when throttling up at low RPMs. Again, same characteristics of the stock configuration.

The question: Has anyone else experienced this with their dealership? I've visited them and they of course claim they did nothing, nor is there anything in the paperwork indicating a reflash. I'd like to believe them, but they are the only ones who have touched the vehicle during that time.

I've contacted Keith at GDE and purchased the ECU update and threw on the Hot tune while I was at it. These are currently in the mail. Since I only rented the flash tool last time, I'm going to purchase it this time so I can switch between tunes.

dirtmover · **Posted:** Fri May 22, 2015 9:53 pm

If you send Keith the file he can probably help you figure out what is in there but more likely the dealer screwed up the TB job and the timing is off a bit :roll:

ShaqDiesel · **Posted:** Fri May 22, 2015 10:01 pm

What's the best way to adjust the timing? Do I have to take everything apart to access the timing belt?

flash7210 · **Posted:** Fri May 22, 2015 10:53 pm

I'd check your boost hoses first. That seems most likely.
I dont see why they would mess with the ECU when only doing a timing belt.
Sure, they could have screwed up the t belt but the only way to know is by inserting the crank and cam shaft Alignment pins. If the pins dont fit, they screwed so ething up.

ShaqDiesel · **Posted:** Sat May 23, 2015 12:28 am

The wheels are spinning on this one. Not sure why I suspected the tune was gone. Good ideas with the boost hoses and the timing being off.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Sat May 23, 2015 12:43 am

You can make the pins, or buy the little timing kit off of ebay for about $80 and have all you need to verify the timing. Well, you'll need some other basic tools to remove the fan and shroud. Let us know if you need the instructions to check it. It doesn't take a mechanic to verify the timing.

You can leave the fan and shroud off until you get a competent certified mechanic to verify if the timing is off, if you need it for small claims, if the stealership won't fix it for free.

You may get lucky, and they destroy the engine and you get a new engine with a 100k warranty. Just make sure to document who touches what and when. Don't let them know you touched anything if you, or anyone else does verify the timing...

They will likely attempt to slime their way out of this :furious:

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sat May 23, 2015 9:00 am

Thoughts:
1. it is possible that the Dealer did an ECU update although I would be surprised if they did so without noting it on the ticket and/or charging for the update. If they did do an update then it overwrote the GDE tune. FYI the few times I've been to the dealer I've written on the ticket a prohibition on connecting to the computer unless they have my permission in writing even though I own the GDE flash unit.
2. a characteristic of the GDE tune is at start-up the rpms "flair" to about 1000 and then drop back. How different this is from the rpms on a KJ CRD without a GDE tune I simply don't remember but it's worth checking.
3. they probably removed both CAC hoses doing the job so checking for proper fit is definitely worth doing.
4. a quick and dirty check for timing can be done without special tools - remove fan and shroud (do yourself a favor and cut the shroud in half just below the bolt mounting tabs and throw away the bottom half - makes reinstall and future work much easier); remove both cam pin hole blocking bolts; manually rotate the engine clockwise until you can insert a pin (allen key, drill bit, ground down metric bolts based on dimensions at viewtopic.php?f=98&t=72201) into BOTH cam alignment holes; see if a long shaft 1/4" or 6mm allen key will go in flywheel hole. See 05 FSM or Sir Sams timing write up for more details and pictures. If the timing is off 1 tooth the pins won't all go in.

kjdieselfever · **Joined:** Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:49 pm **Posts:** 24

Dealer will always check the ECU and update without informing you or charging you. Even if you stipulate that the ECU is not to be touched, they will update it before performing any maintenance. The only way to avoid this is to keep two ECUs and swap out before taking to a dealer. I am betting that GDE will re-flash the tune for you at a discounted rate. Call them and see.

ShaqDiesel · **Posted:** Sat May 23, 2015 4:27 pm

Just downloaded the file to the GDE Scan Tool and emailed it over to Keith. Probably won't hear back until Tuesday, so I'll keep you all updated.

Also spoke to the dealership; the guy who worked on the vehicle isn't back until Tuesday. Questions will be asked then.

To summarize the situation, one of three things could wrong with the vehicle (hopefully not more than one):

1) Dealer messed up the timing belt job and it's off by a tooth or so.
2) Dealer did not properly reconnected one of the boost hoses.
3) Dealer reflashed the ECU and the GDE EcoTune got deleted.

Anything else you guys could see is an issue?

Man, I just love interacting with the dealership. My goodness.

ShaqDiesel · **Posted:** Sun May 24, 2015 1:10 pm

Posted a video to YouTube that details starting up the engine, idling, revving, and accelerating. Can you guys tell me if anything sounds abnormal?

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DURv9t1lZEI&feature=youtu.be

geordi · **Posted:** Sun May 24, 2015 7:19 pm

I can't look at the video right this second, but it will check it later. I would be highly suspicious of talking to "the mechanic" as the dealer would rather he was working and making them more money, not being on the phone. The RPM flare on startup is the thing to trust on whether the tune still exists or not. It WILL flare to 1000/1200 with any GDE tune. If not, it was erased.

If the dealer did a "mark and pray" timing belt change, the system was probably not reset to perfect timing, and they just retained the existing stretched positions. The problem with this is that as the new belt stretches in, the resulting positions could shift beyond the available tolerances. If this happens, rockers can be broken. The engine won't be destroyed, this is the designed failure point, but it will be expensive and the dealer won't know how to deal with it - many have gone before you and spent $8000 (complete new engine) for a $3000 designed repair job.

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ShaqDiesel · **Posted:** Mon May 25, 2015 12:27 am

Thanks Geordi. To me, the engine sounds fairly normal, however I am still new to the CRD world. If the timing was off by only a tooth, would the engine make a noticeably different sound? Not sure how drastic a change one tooth could make.

I also just got the file back from GDE, who said that the Ecotune was not erased. Just want my Jeep back to normal!

dirtmover · **Posted:** Mon May 25, 2015 7:55 am

geordi wrote:

If the dealer did a "mark and pray" timing belt change, the system was probably not reset to perfect timing, and they just retained the existing stretched positions. The problem with this is that as the new belt stretches in, the resulting positions could shift beyond the available tolerances.

I've read this a few times but I don't agree with the description. The crank drives the cam sprockets by pulling on the belt at the right hand side of the engine so as the belt stretches the cams will fall a touch behind the crank. The slack will be taken up by the tensioner. If you use that method and put on a belt identical in dimension to the one that was last installed when it was brand new you will return the timing to exactly where it was at that point in time.

It all comes down to the tolerance of the belts when new and without looking up the specs I'm pretty sure that this is tight enough that the mark and pray method shouldn't require the pray part.

The main issue with that method is that you don't know how well it was timed last time and you need to remove the cam sprockets to get to the rear timing cover off if you wish to change the coolant pump.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon May 25, 2015 9:19 am

Much as I trust geordi's work I'm inclined to somewhat agree with dirtmover but for different reasons. On a regular belt, such as the serpentine belt, the purpose of the tensioner is to tension the belt (in the olden days before tensionsers one used a pry bar on the alternator and rechecked belt tension several days later to take up slack) and automatically take up slack. On a toothed belt, such as the timing belt, the purpose of the tensioner is to take up slack in the belt, necessary to get the belt on, there by forcing the belt teeth to engage the various gear and pulley teeth and to keep those teeth engaged.

I know the 2 cams, the CP3 pump pulley, and the crank all have teeth into which the belt engages and I think the water pump pulley has teeth, I'm to lazy to check my spare WP to see. In any case while the timing belt can stretch a bit during use it cannot stretch much between individual teeth. To put it another way the number of timing belt teeth remain constant between all the "toothed" cams/pulleys as the belt wears. A replacement belt has the same number of teeth and will be slightly shorter than a slightly stretched used belt but the new belt teeth have to go into the same places.

Thus assuming the engine is in time (if not all bets are off) in the first place (crank mark at 3 o'clock, cam pins in place, flywheel pin in place) then marking cam teeth including the opposing teeth, the CP3, and counting the number of belt teeth between the cams will enable you to put the new belt on while keeping the engine in time. Of course manually test rotating the engine and rechecking pins and marks is critical not to mention a brief test run before closing up the timing belt cover.

dirtmover · **Posted:** Mon May 25, 2015 1:11 pm

Just to put things into context, according to Gates, any stretch that we are talking about is less than 0.1%. Over the total length of our belt this represents a fraction of a tooth.

Put the new belt back the way the old one came off and you're good to go. No need to worry about stretch and no need to loosen the cams to re-time, best case it puts the timing back to where it was when the previous belt was new.

Of course, I don't believe any of us would recommend replacing the belt without also replacing the water pump. Having felt the play in mine after 100K I certainly wouldn't consider it.

Going back to the OP, if the timing is off it's more likely because they've tried to re-time it having removed the cam sprocket and got it a bit wrong. This is a dealership we're talking about, after all, so the probably tried to go by the book.

ShaqDiesel · **Posted:** Mon May 25, 2015 11:15 pm

Thanks for all of your help here everyone. Just a quick ping to check out the video below, which I took of my CRD. I've got video of idle, revving, and acceleration. Does the engine sound normal? Thanks again for your time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DURv9t1lZEI&feature=youtu.be

ShaqDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:00 pm

To bring closure to this issue, the CAC hoses were indeed the problem. I purchased the ID Parts replacements hoses and the Weeks stage 1 kit. The T-bolt style clamps work much better than the regular hose clamps. Jeep runs like a top - mileage and power is back up.

SargeIndustries · **Posted:** Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:05 pm

The idle does not appear to ramp up in the video like a GDE tune does. My guess is the GDE tune is gone...

ShaqDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:34 pm

I got word from Keith at GDE that the Ecotune was indeed still there, based on the file readout from the ECU. After replacing the CAC hoses and using t-bolt style clamps, the problems have gone away.

Dealership ECU Reflash? GDE EcoTune seems to be gone.

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