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 Post subject: '06 Liberty CRD P0101 & P009A
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:42 am 
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:24 am
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Location: Heartland -- Flyover Country
Am new to LOSTJEEPS; thank you for the forum.

A little personal background: Electrical Engineer by education and vocation, life-long (young adult onward) shadetree mechanic, spent ~6 years as Systems Engineer at one of Big 3 and have owned numerous passenger car Diesels (due deference to Rudolph, it's a proper noun) many early IDI/mechanically injected but recent acquisitions (over past 5 or 6 years) the CRD and VW-TDi's (plural). CRD has 110k on the clock with TB and WP service performed 6k ago.

Have read several posts regarding P0101 and P009A. Instinct leads me to believe P009A in this case is a child code, secondary or side effect, to P0101. Vehicle lost power instaneously, had vehicle in cruise at 63 mph on backroads when I began to notice vehicle speed drift downward, without breaking cruise 'lock', over mildly undulating terrain. Depressed the throttle and noticed long hesitation before RPM's actually responded, when they did the tranny downshifted and acceleration was tediously slow.

Reluctant to leap to conclusions, particularly the one concerning worn rocker arms since power and efficiency have been constant until that specific instance in time last night. When driven conservatively (65mph) on the highway it routinely delivers ~23+mpg, that accounts for a 5% calibration adjustment due to tire radius and clocked miles vs actual vs GPS. My odo underreports elasped mileage and overstates the speed(o) by ~5%.

While having the Liberty scanned and reading P009A and P0101, at a nearby auto parts retailer, I cleaned the MAFS with a dry paper towel and smacked the air filter clear of accumulated debris.

This incident arose 175 miles into a 460 mile roundtrip. Despite the frustrating RPM fluctuations over generally flat midwestern thoroughfares (largely interstate overpasses), cruise was set predominately at 70mph, which now happens to be its max speed. With less than a quarter tank of fuel remaining, ironically I dare say fuel consumption didn't suffer greatly.

Hoping to avoid the swap till you drop mentality, first the MAF, then EGR, then..., based on the vehicle's before/aft performance is there a more definitive or concise diagnostic path? My inclination suggests a leak or more likely a sudden electrical failure, but please don't allow that to color your assessment.

Eager for some sage input and thanks for the consideration.

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2004 VW Passat Wgn TDi -- BSM Delete, ALH Oil Pump
2005 VW Passat TDi -- BSM Delete, ALH Oil Pump
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD -- 100% Stock, At This Moment


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 Post subject: Re: '06 Liberty CRD P0101 & P009A
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:36 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:12 pm
Posts: 526
Location: Central Oregon Coast
If you believe it's the MAF sensor, simply unplug it. You will get a check engine light, but not a critical one. If it runs normal again, you've found the problem.

MAF sensors usually take a longer time to gradually go bad, and can be cleaned with sensor-safe cleaners or special MAF cleaners.

You said the engine lost power instantly, but that you noticed the speed come down gradually. It sounds as if it has since been losing more power(?) If it went into Limp Home Mode, the power and speed pretty much both drop instantly. I'm having a hard time picturing this in my mind.

You mention pulling the air filter, and knocking out dust. Did you check if you can see light through it? A plugged filter will often still be plugged after knocking out loose dust / dirt / bugs, etc.

Have you noticed if there is any increase in visible diesel exhaust? (dark particulate cloud) or any other smoke?

If not, perhaps the fuel filter has plugged. Often on trips varying qualities of fuel can cause problems. Have you pumped and bled the fuel head for air? Air in fuel is a possibility if you don't have an in-tank lift pump. We must sound like broken records on this subject, but many don't understand that the system was never DESIGNED to operate without a lift pump. It was DECIDED that it COULD operate without a lift pump, in interest of cost cutting. With your background, you've probably dealt with that concept before.

The MAP sensor is another thing that could stand to be looked at. They can also be cleaned, and can get pretty mucked up, especially if your EGR is still operational. Or just replaced. They aren't expensive.

A Stuck EGR or FCV could also cause power loss, but if that's the case you would have more / different codes coming up.

The ambient air temp sensor is in the front of the grille support, but I've not heard of one going bad in the last year anyway.

Without more information it's kind of like hunting ducks at night.

Best of luck. Hope it's something inexpensive.

_________________
'06 Liberty Sport CRD 143,700mi
Sasquatch Turbo, New head, cams, rockers, valves, ARP studs, Stg 1 and 2 EGR eliminator Etecno1 5v gp set,
CAT eliminator. Flowmaster 50 series, Cummins lift pump, Duramax FPS Valve.(rail) Timing set, Hayden clutch, 11 blade fan, Sonnax booster

Future plans: TC upgrade, Transgo kit, GDE Hot-tune


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 Post subject: Re: '06 Liberty CRD P0101 & P009A
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:38 am 
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:24 am
Posts: 8
Location: Heartland -- Flyover Country
Thanks for a swift response. Unplugging the MAF is the kind of A vs B test I'm after.

As far as degraded performance is concerned it was first observed during an active ignition cycle, under cruise while at 60+ mph on a long stretch of reasonably flat & straight 2-lane road. For all I know it could have taken nanoseconds, microseconds, milliseconds or moments, once the vehicle encountered a little additional resistance (either wind or change in road contour) it began to deccelerate though not surrendering 'lock' while in cruise.

Aware that I was losing speed I pressed the accelerator and the response was pure mush. The rest is history; low power, slllllooow acceleration, 70mph top end, but it doesn't appear to have burned an excessive amount of fuel. During those times of open throttle, which were many as it attempted to reclaim cruise speed, I really didn't notice inordinate plumes of dark, sootie unburned particulate matter. Yes on occasion, but it wasn't consistent or repeatable.

Trying to drive safely (alone) on long stretches of Interstate under construction at and after dusk with moderately heavy tinting aren't ideal test conditions. Of course with sun up I can ask the wife to take the helm and run it through a few passes. She gets so excited to help and test our vehicles, NOT!

_________________
2004 VW Passat Wgn TDi -- BSM Delete, ALH Oil Pump
2005 VW Passat TDi -- BSM Delete, ALH Oil Pump
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD -- 100% Stock, At This Moment


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 Post subject: Re: '06 Liberty CRD P0101 & P009A
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:41 am 
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:24 am
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Location: Heartland -- Flyover Country
Unplugged the MAF, no difference at all. Response still very sluggish. No excessive, or out of the ordinary, plumes of soot.

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2004 VW Passat Wgn TDi -- BSM Delete, ALH Oil Pump
2005 VW Passat TDi -- BSM Delete, ALH Oil Pump
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD -- 100% Stock, At This Moment


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 Post subject: Re: '06 Liberty CRD P0101 & P009A
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:52 am 
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:24 am
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Location: Heartland -- Flyover Country
Understand the notion of a lift pump, my TDi's and pre-Duramax have 'em. How does one correlate a P0101 DTC to poor or low fuel line pressure from the tank?

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2004 VW Passat Wgn TDi -- BSM Delete, ALH Oil Pump
2005 VW Passat TDi -- BSM Delete, ALH Oil Pump
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD -- 100% Stock, At This Moment


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 Post subject: Re: '06 Liberty CRD P0101 & P009A
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:58 am 
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:24 am
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Location: Heartland -- Flyover Country
Oh yeah, one other symptom: Idle would oscillate under specific load conditions, typically low constant speed and low RPM with about a 200 to 400 RPM swing. Doesn't impact driveability at since there's very little torque currently being delivered at the low end. Guess it's safe to say the oscillations were there at higher speeds, but were quite muted or attenuated as compared to overall RPM.

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2004 VW Passat Wgn TDi -- BSM Delete, ALH Oil Pump
2005 VW Passat TDi -- BSM Delete, ALH Oil Pump
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD -- 100% Stock, At This Moment


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 Post subject: Re: '06 Liberty CRD P0101 & P009A
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:08 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:43 am
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Location: Green Cove Springs FL
WoodyBoyd wrote:
Oh yeah, one other symptom: Idle would oscillate under specific load conditions, typically low constant speed and low RPM with about a 200 to 400 RPM swing. Doesn't impact driveability at since there's very little torque currently being delivered at the low end. Guess it's safe to say the oscillations were there at higher speeds, but were quite muted or attenuated as compared to overall RPM.

At what speed are you noticing the RPM fluctuations? Is the cruise control on?
It could be because the A/C is on or, if cruise is on, its just reacting to changes in terrain.

At higher speeds where the torque converter is locked (50+ mph) you wont notice any RPM fluctuations. If there were, it would also correspond to changes in vehicle speed. But you may notice changes in engine tone/load.

The P009A code is very odd.
I'd check the connection to the little sensor on the side of the air filter box lid. Also check the connection to the MAP sensor.
Also, there is a ambient air temp sensor somewhere in the grille area. I dont remember exactly where.

_________________
Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
Cheap 1 inch lift, 245-75R-16 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: '06 Liberty CRD P0101 & P009A
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 2:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:24 am
Posts: 8
Location: Heartland -- Flyover Country
A/C compressor loading and idle compensation is a greater concern on older low-output IDI motors; don't expect an A/C compressor at start up to have more than about a 10hp peak load. Once the A/C system is thoroughly circulating and chilly I see the A/C compressor clutch having a peak load of just a couple of hp's. At a 160hp and 295 ft-lbs of torque the VM Motori would hardly flinch with the A/C on.

Nonetheless, A/C was inactive since I had passed through a cold front 2 hours prior.

The RPM fluctuations were most noticeable at lower RPM's since the swings were a greater proportion of the nominal RPM's. They appeared at certain vehicle speed and motor loading conditions. Oscillations didn't appear at a normal idle, ~800 RPM.

_________________
2004 VW Passat Wgn TDi -- BSM Delete, ALH Oil Pump
2005 VW Passat TDi -- BSM Delete, ALH Oil Pump
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD -- 100% Stock, At This Moment


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 Post subject: Re: '06 Liberty CRD P0101 & P009A
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:29 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:43 am
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Location: Green Cove Springs FL
So, the AC was off.
Noted :|

_________________
Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
Cheap 1 inch lift, 245-75R-16 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: '06 Liberty CRD P0101 & P009A
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 5:41 am 
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:24 am
Posts: 8
Location: Heartland -- Flyover Country
Gornado,

Beginning to believe it's a fuel supply issue. DTC related to MAF may well be coincidental, but disconnecting MAF and not realizing any change in performance is sobering. Will change fuel filter later this week and consider adding a lift pump.

Are we looking at generic lift pump features; i.e., 6 to 9 psi? I possess a NIB unit never installed on a pre-Duramax. It is an externally mounted pump, seems as though it should fit the bill. Is there another pump better suited for the KJ-CRD?

_________________
2004 VW Passat Wgn TDi -- BSM Delete, ALH Oil Pump
2005 VW Passat TDi -- BSM Delete, ALH Oil Pump
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD -- 100% Stock, At This Moment


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 Post subject: Re: '06 Liberty CRD P0101 & P009A
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:10 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:36 pm
Posts: 2393
Location: Central GA
WoodyBoyd wrote:
Is there another pump better suited for the KJ-CRD?

Most definitely!
Install an in-tank lift pump and forget it! Your Jeep is factory wired including the relay for it except for a short section of wire from under the rear seat to the top of the fuel tank.
The fuel line fittings are designed for pressure, not vacuum, so installing a lift pump inside the fuel tank puts the entire system under 10-15 psig so any leak will be self evident very quickly and there will be no need to replace the fuel line fittings or hose! And most important, air in fuel issues are GONE FOREVER!!! :wink:

Many members on LOST including myself have installed the in-tank fuel pump. And I still believe my engine idled smoother after the install! :shock:
There are several threads on LOST that cover the in-tank install and rationale behind why it is better option over an outside mounted fuel pump. Outside mounted pumps will work, they are still better than no pump, but they are not the cleanest install option whereas the in-tank install will look just like it came from the factory once installed.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=78950&hilit

See this for install instructions:> http://auerbach.ca/kj/lift_pump/

Seth at Sasquatch Parts has everything needed to install including a new wiring harness and pump assembly! Basically, plug and play!
https://shop.sasquatchparts.com/product ... 5143160AA/

Image Image

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk BrushGuard, IronmanCoils/Bilstein's, Yeti Stage4 MaxTune, Weeks ElbowKit &Battery Tray,
No FCV/EGR, Samcos, ProVent, SunCoast&Transgo, Carter intank-pmp, 2mic. Sec. filter,
Hella's, Flowmaster/nocat, V6 Airbox, GM11 blade fan & Hayden HD clutch
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair, HugeK&N


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 Post subject: Re: '06 Liberty CRD P0101 & P009A
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 3:01 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:24 am
Posts: 8
Location: Heartland -- Flyover Country
WW,

Sold! I'm in the tank and down with your pump recommendation. Thank you for the solid rationale. I couldn't concur more that there should be a slight push (the lift pump) of fuel instead of the long draw of the CR. Brings me back to some of the headaches I encountered with the Audi 4000, VW Quantum and Rabbit Diesels (1.5 & 1.6L non-turbo IDI's).

Sad how MB-Chrysler cut corners on such a low volume vehicle.

_________________
2004 VW Passat Wgn TDi -- BSM Delete, ALH Oil Pump
2005 VW Passat TDi -- BSM Delete, ALH Oil Pump
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD -- 100% Stock, At This Moment


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 Post subject: Re: '06 Liberty CRD P0101 & P009A
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 3:37 pm 
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LOST Junkie

Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:12 pm
Posts: 526
Location: Central Oregon Coast
When working on my Libby, I get the impression that it was intended to be a really cheap entry level 4x4, as a way to get people to step up to their bread & butter vehicles, either the Grand Cherokee or the Wrangler. It's almost like they were taken by surprise when they realized they had produced a vehicle with this much capability, when for just a bit more they could have made it more durable and much more reliable.

A lift pump will be a huge step towards reliability, in any case.
The problem with fuel supply is not so much low pressure, but actual vacuum.
The low pressure supply pump inside the CP3 unit is greatly capable and can induce vacuum in the neighborhood of 21"hg.
This makes it easily capable of not only drawing fuel from the tank, but also (the problems of) drawing air into the system at the push-lock fittings and fuel filter head, and also if fuel flow is restricted by a pinched line, contamination, or a sufficiently plugged filter, actual cavitation.
Both scenarios are beyond problematic, and actually self-destructive.
If enough gas bubbles are present and make it through the Cascade Overflow Valve, the compressability of this gas in the high pressure rail will cause pressure fluctuations, that will cause surging at lower rpms, as the fuel delivery maps aren't able to compensate for this variable, but still try to.
Putting the whole fuel delivery system, from the tank to the CP3, under a small amount of pressure eliminates risk of both aeration and cavitation.
It also eliminates a sizeable list of possibilities that could cause the symptoms you describe.

I also had an outside-of-tank pump that I intended to use, and ultimately chose not to, as that solution didn't eliminate the possibility of aeration, added a potential (but low) risk of problems with an added component with no proper mounting place, connecting fuel lines, electrical, etc. The in-tank solution uses all factory connectors, wires, fuel lines, adds no "out of place" component, and solves all pre-CP3 fuel issues.

[Ediit] I don't know if the pump module from Sasquatch will have the "sending unit float arm problem" or not. I used a module from a 2006 Dodge 1-ton w/Cummins, and had to bend the float arm to work. (The float arm is spring steel and NOT easy to bend!)

To check, set the module on a flat surface, and observe the lowest 90 degree bend of the float arm.
These pictures are of a proper CRD module.

ImageImage

The Cummins arm comes lower, to under 1/4" from the surface it is setting on, and if not modified, due to a semi-circular ridge around the module at the bottom of the tank, will only register fuel down to about 20%, and not go clear to 'Empty'.
If your pump module has the Cummins arm, the best solution is to remove the sending unit / float / arm assembly from your old unit, and swap it into the new pump module. (one clip, slides out, 2 wires for the sending unit resistor. Either swap plugs, or swap wires. Works either way)

Dropping the tank is not difficult unless it is full. The most annoying / difficult thing for me was getting the carpet and sound-deadening material out of the way to get to the wiring.

[eidits for syntax,speling, and clarity)

_________________
'06 Liberty Sport CRD 143,700mi
Sasquatch Turbo, New head, cams, rockers, valves, ARP studs, Stg 1 and 2 EGR eliminator Etecno1 5v gp set,
CAT eliminator. Flowmaster 50 series, Cummins lift pump, Duramax FPS Valve.(rail) Timing set, Hayden clutch, 11 blade fan, Sonnax booster

Future plans: TC upgrade, Transgo kit, GDE Hot-tune


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 Post subject: Re: '06 Liberty CRD P0101 & P009A
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:36 pm
Posts: 2393
Location: Central GA
The float arm is a non-issue! They simply snap on, so you simply carefully remove the float arm off the new unit and replace it with the float arm off the OEM non-pump assembly you pull out of the tank. Takes about 30 seconds and problem solved! :wink:
Least that is what I did when I installed my unit back in 2013 and gauge works perfectly provided you index the new assembly correctly...but that is covered in the installation instructions...

No need for all that bending and measuring stuff unless you just want to use the new float arm!!! :ROTFL:

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk BrushGuard, IronmanCoils/Bilstein's, Yeti Stage4 MaxTune, Weeks ElbowKit &Battery Tray,
No FCV/EGR, Samcos, ProVent, SunCoast&Transgo, Carter intank-pmp, 2mic. Sec. filter,
Hella's, Flowmaster/nocat, V6 Airbox, GM11 blade fan & Hayden HD clutch
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair, HugeK&N


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 Post subject: Re: '06 Liberty CRD P0101 & P009A
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm
Posts: 1066
P0101 can also point to worn rocker arms. Measuring MAF at idle after 1 minute of idling is good data to determine rocker arm health. It is a good sized job to fix. How many miles on the CRD?

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