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 Post subject: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:02 pm 
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It just dawned on me that the original spare under the vinyl cover, although showing no signs of sidewall cracking nor age, may not be viable.

Would you keep it as a spare or should I keep one of my present tires as a spare the next time I buy tires?

Or should I replace it now?

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:57 am 
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next time you buy tires, buy five new ones all the same size.
rotate all five tires about every 5000 miles or so, making sure they all get used and worn evenly, maximizing the tread life of all your tires.

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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:58 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
next time you buy tires, buy five new ones all the same size.
rotate all five tires about every 5000 miles or so, making sure they all get used and worn evenly, maximizing the tread life of all your tires.

X2
Just as Flash stated, spare tires should always be included in the tire rotation regiment. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:44 pm 
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I would not trust it for much use given the age but being covered for it's life time it should not be TOO bad. 5 tire rotation is fine given the KJ has a full size spare; 4 tire rotation is fine too if when you change tires you replace the spare with the best of the 4 on the ground. I tend to do 4 tire so I don't have to lay out $s for 5 when they all come due for replacement.

If you just bought new tires I'd be inclined to see if you can score a good used tire to replace the spare.

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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:41 pm 
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Tires manufactured in the year 2000 or later, the date of the tire's manufacture is the last four digits of the DOT code which is stamped into the sidewall of the tire.
The first two digits are the week of manufacture, and the last two digits are the year.
Example, if the last four digits of the DOT code are 0209, that means that the tire was manufactured during the second week of the year 2009.

Tire dealers tell me 5 years is the recommended life span of a tire, so if it is older than that, you may not want to put it in service on a vehicle... :wink:
Older tires can and do come apart when you least expect it even though they look in perfectly good shape! :roll:
Had it happen to me last year on a big expensive truck tire. Slung the tread cap completely off at 65mph, scared the heck out of me! :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:44 am 
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Ditto.

Happens with trailers all the time, especially if used little, they get forgotten. Tires look fine, lots of tread but age catches up with them.

Having said that I've driven bias tires that are 20-50 years old and are fine (rather hard though) but seldom at highway or higher speeds. But they are a different animal altogether.

If I couldn't pay for 5 new ones I'd do as recommended when buying 4 and keep the best old one.

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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:58 am 
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With thermal cycling over time, the components of tire tread compound that makes them pliable and tractive, evaporate away.
You end up with a tire that looks fine, with lots of tread, but when taken on a road and required to perform, it's little better than hard plastic.

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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:17 pm 
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Also most tire shops won't fix or mount a tire once it is 10+ years old. So even it is fine and you get a flat no one will fix it.

Best to avoid older tires, although I admit to pushing the envelope a bit sometimes. Might be OK as a spare which never gets used. But if you ever needed it and were doing hiway driving on it, I'd be concerned.

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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:10 am 
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I just took off 6 tires from my RV that still have 80% of their tread and no rot at all.

But they are from 2003.

Would I use one as a short-term spare? On a passenger vehicle, maybe. The spare under the floor in my VW is pretty old, but also completely shielded from weather and sunlight. On the back of the Jeep... Only for a very short time.
I will say this much, my family has pretty much quit rotating tires, we drive a LOT and the results have been that the mileage is still the exact same - front tires on FWD might wear down a tad quicker, but not enough to make much difference - and they are all still wearing square anyway. Tires on the RVs don't get rotated OR balanced, and in general most RV and trailer tires "age out" long before they run out of miles... But trailer tires also are usually made at complete crap quality levels. I've suffered probably 6 different trailer peel-offs of Chinese tires that weren't old OR out of tread, they just fly apart.

Just keep them in good condition and change them before they are too old, and even running used tires isn't an issue. (That was what I put on the RV, a full set of DEEP tread truck tires (2 years old) installed for less than $1000... Would have been about $3600 new!

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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:44 pm 
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geordi wrote:
I will say this much, my family has pretty much quit rotating tires, we drive a LOT and the results have been that the mileage is still the exact same - front tires on FWD might wear down a tad quicker, but not enough to make much difference - and they are all still wearing square anyway.

I can tell you 100% that this statement is a flat out lie and not true,more so on a FWD vehicle.


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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Oh goody the trolling begins. The yelling about tire rotation has been going on since I got my first vehicle (front wheel drive) in 1969 (I'll skip over rebuilding a '65 Mustang and '55 MGA - don't ask me about Lucas electrics and positive ground) and probably for decades before that which is the same as the yelling about oil change intervals. In both cases to some extent the yelling revolves around what was true in 1969 or earlier is less or not true in 2017. I've rotated/not rotated on both rear wheel and front wheel drive vehicles. Observed fact rotating "seems" to extend tire life for those tires on the ground but that "fact" is somewhat deceptive. In the real world rotation merely distributes the wear evenly across the tires on the ground (ex. moving fast wearing front tires to the rear slows the wear on those tires down but then the rear tires that were moved to the front start to wear faster).

Observed fact - radial tires track straighter and wear longer than bias tires; today's vehicles hold alignment vastly better than vehicles built in the latter part of the 1900s when alignment AND balancing was a necessity at least once a year.

In the long run assuming good alignment/balance; proper inflation; quality radial tires; little to no off road use; no suspension problems you can rotate or not (NOTE I do at each 6K mile oil change) as you see fit. Won't make a whole lot of difference in the number of tires you buy during the life of the vehicle.

Others are entitled to whatever opinions they have but let's minimize the gratuitous mud slinging.

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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:20 pm 
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papaindigo wrote:
Oh goody the trolling begins. The yelling about tire rotation has been going on since I got my first vehicle (front wheel drive) in 1969 (I'll skip over rebuilding a '65 Mustang and '55 MGA - don't ask me about Lucas electrics and positive ground) and probably for decades before that which is the same as the yelling about oil change intervals. In both cases to some extent the yelling revolves around what was true in 1969 or earlier is less or not true in 2017. I've rotated/not rotated on both rear wheel and front wheel drive vehicles. Observed fact rotating "seems" to extend tire life for those tires on the ground but that "fact" is somewhat deceptive. In the real world rotation merely distributes the wear evenly across the tires on the ground (ex. moving fast wearing front tires to the rear slows the wear on those tires down but then the rear tires that were moved to the front start to wear faster).

Observed fact - radial tires track straighter and wear longer than bias tires; today's vehicles hold alignment vastly better than vehicles built in the latter part of the 1900s when alignment AND balancing was a necessity at least once a year.

In the long run assuming good alignment/balance; proper inflation; quality radial tires; little to no off road use; no suspension problems you can rotate or not (NOTE I do at each 6K mile oil change) as you see fit. Won't make a whole lot of difference in the number of tires you buy during the life of the vehicle.

Others are entitled to whatever opinions they have but let's minimize the gratuitous mud slinging.

Your roads must be 1000% better then any around here.See 2-3 broken/cracked rims a week from pot holes,OE rims included.

I have yet to see 1 brand new vehicle that was in alignment yet and I do alot of them,"new" meaning less then 500 miles on it.


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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:45 pm 
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Florida roads pretty much suck too but maybe for different reasons.

I've done a lot of alignments too and found that half the time the alignment was in spec and that any customer perceived "pulling" was due to uneven road surfaces.
Still other times the "pulling" was fixed by simply rotating the tires.

Its up to the owner to decide whether or not they want their tires rotated. For better or for worse.
I'm an advocate of rotating tires.
Unless you have a hotrod with skinnies up front and fats in back, those you simply dont rotate.

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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:57 pm 
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Well I've driven my personal vehicle(s) in 38 of the lower 48 and other vehicles in the "missing" 10 without a broken suspension part or rim but then I don't do any true off road (excluding some FL sand roads where you can get stuck in a heartbeat but no rocks) and no where with much in the way of potholes like folks in snow country experience so maybe I'm just not that hard on alignment and/or balance. Not to say I have not had tire belt separation or clear alignment/balance issue. Not to mention the time a not so old trailer tire shed all its tread at 60mph; steel belt held though.

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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:09 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
geordi wrote:
I will say this much, my family has pretty much quit rotating tires, we drive a LOT and the results have been that the mileage is still the exact same - front tires on FWD might wear down a tad quicker, but not enough to make much difference - and they are all still wearing square anyway.

I can tell you 100% that this statement is a flat out lie and not true, more so on a FWD vehicle.


No slinging intended, just stating some facts to consider!
unless you are hauling a huge amount of weight in the rear of a vehicle the front tires will always wear faster than the rear due to the following reasons:
    1. Front engine vehicle tires always have more front biased weight on them than the rear tires. Vehicle weight bias generally runs around a 60/40% ratio at standstill.
    2. More stress placed on front tires, especially the shoulders, from normal turning left and right cornering (camber wear)
    3. Another huge factor, Braking force (brake bias) is always much greater on the front tires (and brakes) due to the sheer weight of the car up front along with weight transfer when applying brakes (about 50% of the vehicle weight is transferred at a 1.0g braking deceleration and can increase on downward inclines) and this puts a lot of additional stress on the front tires which will also increase wear rates on them. This is why front brake components always have larger bores and brake pads wear out much faster on the front than the rears.

:SOMBRERO:

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Blk Brush Guard/Hella's
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Yeti Stage4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit & Battery Tray
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Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast&Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic. Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat,
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan / Hayden HD clutch
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair, Huge K&N


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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:18 pm 
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Trailer tires are just not built to the same quality of tread-adhesion, I've had several that were not old enough to be too old, peel the tread right off without warning. Nice big stripe all the way around, shoulder to shoulder.

I'm sure this will also garner a response from the Failurestone Tire crowd, but I also don't automatically put everything rubber at 35psi like it seems tire shops always do. Doesn't matter what vehicle I've had done, they *always* set them at 35psi, even with tires that are 50psi max, which means that the tire has now been set 40% lower than the rating. From the Ford Explorer lawsuit years ago, tire manufacturers stated that they were increasing the potential for heat failure (due to increased flex) with tires lower than 10% below the max and that the car manufacturers were not specifying correct pressure numbers.

I run my tires pretty much all at the sidewall max, and before anyone has the chance to scream that this must be happening - No they aren't wearing out in the middle first, they are wearing square across the tread. Also not every car has as much adjustment as they used to. My VW Jetta has basically no adjustment for the camber, so said an alignment shop. Only the toe can be adjusted. So if those tires want to wear strangely... Rotation is the only "cure" and it isn't a cure, it just moves the wear around. Last set of tires I put on that car had run for longer than their mileage warranty (75k miles) so I think I'm doing pretty good.

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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:54 pm 
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geordi wrote:
Trailer tires are just not built to the same quality of tread-adhesion, I've had several that were not old enough to be too old, peel the tread right off without warning. Nice big stripe all the way around, shoulder to shoulder.

I'm sure this will also garner a response from the Failurestone Tire crowd, but I also don't automatically put everything rubber at 35psi like it seems tire shops always do. Doesn't matter what vehicle I've had done, they *always* set them at 35psi, even with tires that are 50psi max, which means that the tire has now been set 40% lower than the rating. From the Ford Explorer lawsuit years ago, tire manufacturers stated that they were increasing the potential for heat failure (due to increased flex) with tires lower than 10% below the max and that the car manufacturers were not specifying correct pressure numbers.

I run my tires pretty much all at the sidewall max, and before anyone has the chance to scream that this must be happening - No they aren't wearing out in the middle first, they are wearing square across the tread. Also not every car has as much adjustment as they used to. My VW Jetta has basically no adjustment for the camber, so said an alignment shop. Only the toe can be adjusted. So if those tires want to wear strangely... Rotation is the only "cure" and it isn't a cure, it just moves the wear around. Last set of tires I put on that car had run for longer than their mileage warranty (75k miles) so I think I'm doing pretty good.

You really don't have a clue on how load ratings work and air pressure do you?

"Just set at max psi" and your good is not a good idea,even for trailer tires that often never see anywhere close to max load.

Oh and by the way your VW does have both camber and caster adjustments,granted you can't set individual camber/caster but you can adjust to even camber/caster between the left and right sides.


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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:56 pm 
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Sidewall weight ratings on radial tires state the amount of weight that the tire can safely carry at that particular cold pressure. Lower weight on the same air pressure results in a smaller (slightly) contact patch front-to-back and less overall rolling resistance. This is basic physics, it is how many pounds per square inch the air is supporting. At 35 lbs per square inch the contact patch is larger because the weight per square inch is lower to match the lower force.

Trailer tires will also have lower rolling resistance and are typically designed with a center rib that is the main carrier when the tire is lightly loaded. Trailer tires are designed to ride more "round" however and may still be bias ply rather than radials. I personally try to avoid bias ply trailer tires however and stick with radials. That doesn't change the fact that most of them seem to be made in China and have questionable-at-best quality controls.

As far as my VW, how exactly would it have a side-to-side camber adjustment exactly? There is no direct connection between the front wheels other than the anti sway bar or the steering rack itself. It is a ball jointed arm system with struts, independent front suspension. The holes for the ball joint bolts are supposed to be slotted according to the alignment tech, and they are not. But hey, you know everything about everything working in a chain tire shop, so tell me again how I know nothing about my own cars?

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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:29 pm 
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geordi wrote:

As far as my VW, how exactly would it have a side-to-side camber adjustment exactly? There is no direct connection between the front wheels other than the anti sway bar or the steering rack itself. It is a ball jointed arm system with struts, independent front suspension. The holes for the ball joint bolts are supposed to be slotted according to the alignment tech, and they are not. But hey, you know everything about everything working in a chain tire shop, so tell me again how I know nothing about my own cars?


Image

Same procedure for almost every newer VW/audi.


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 Post subject: Re: 2005 original spare tire-bad practice?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:04 am 
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Ok, I stand corrected - although I would think that those bolts might only need to be loosened and adjusted after an accident. I can't think of any way that the entire subframe would move from the factory setting without a SEVERE impact somewhere.

The IFS vehicles I have worked with other than these VWs (that have all been the same generation of Jetta anyway) have had slotted ball joint sockets and if there was a camber issue it was usually only on one side. That was also why you are supposed to mark the joint when removing to service the knuckle, so you could put it back and not (hopefully) need a fresh alignment for something as simple as changing a bearing. The subframe never entered into it.

To install a tow bar mount on the Jeep you are supplied with two bars that go to the subframe under the engine - same thing, you are supposed to get an alignment after using those. If they are done one at a time however the subframe can't move.


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