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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:05 am 
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I couldn't get the v-band clamp back on where the exhaust manifold connects to the egr tube, so I pulled the tube out entirely (guess I'm on the way to a full egr delete now) and plan to block off the manifold. I made a plug for the hole then busted up the v-band clamp trying to get it on! Spent a while spot welding the v-band clamp back together, but I think the washer I used to make the plug is too thick because the clamp will not go on. A pretty frustrating day, with what precious little time I had to devote to it.

I'll try again tomorrow with the plug. Does anyone make a slightly wider clamp? I'm afraid that if I go with thin gauge sheet metal that the exhaust will blow the plug out or distort it so that it leaks.

Gordnado, I pulled the CAC hoses earlier in the diagnosis and did not hear any of the thumping sound you mention. It's this smooth idle that has me doubting the rocker arm failure scenario, so I'm going to try everything else first, including checking the belt timing once I get the exhaust settled.

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2001 VW Jetta TDI, 265,000 miles and counting...
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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:41 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
five7driver wrote:

Concerning the possibility of rocker arm failure, would the failure cause an exhaust valve to remain open thereby allowing exhaust to escape back into the intake, or would it be more likely that an intake valve is not opening which leads to a fuel-rich/no combustion condition? Trying to wrap my head around the mechanics of this.

Typically, rocker failure just means that the valves don't fully open whether they be intake or exhaust.
Unless the rocker completely breaks apart, then the valve wont open at all.

If its an intake rocker, not enough air gets into the cylinder and would be fuel-rich.
If its an exhaust rocker, exhaust flow becomes severely restricted, which would effect turbo performance and also limit the amount of air getting into the intake.

Typical rocker failure involves worn out roller bearings which increases valve lash and creates a noticeable valve "clatter" sound.

I agree with this, except that neither Hydraulic valve adjusters nor roller followers tend to fail with all valves and all cylinders at once. When one happens you will have a distinct thumping at idle, especially if you pull the intake manifold CAC hose. The un-even-ness can be heard whether it's intake or exhaust, although intake is louder.

That it's affecting all cylinders the same, suggests more along the lines of a cam jumping a tooth, or (hopefully not) slipping within the pulley. That is why I suggest ruling that out through a timing pin check. It's quick and easy enough to do.


The ecodiesels were having issues with slipping cam gears. I find it amazing they don’t put a key or something on the cam to keep it aligned and make tb changes easier. My cam spun inside the gear on me when I was torquing it. Bent the alignment pin and f’d up the pin threads on the manifold.

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2014 F150 EcoBoost - Gearhead Tuned, AFE CAC, Bilstein 5100's, Airlift Bags, Duratracs


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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:33 am 
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I finally got the egr port on the exhaust manifold blocked off and it made no difference in the boost performance.

Going to pull the downpipe and check for cat restriction and see what I can see in the exhaust side of the turbo.
Still want to do a leak test on the injectors and check timing when I get back to it (away from home for work right now), but I'm going to go ahead and order everything I need to do a full egr delete and rocker arm changeout.

I figure if I'm going to take the intake off to have a look I may as well change them out while I'm in there whether that fixes the problem or not.

Any advice on what I will need to do the whole job? Any gaskets, seals, special tools, etc. that I need to have lined up ahead of time? Nothing like getting elbow deep in grease just to find out you can't complete the job because of a .99 cent gasket! :cry:

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2004 VW Jetta TDI
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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:11 pm 
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If you can disconnect the CAT from the downpipe, you could take it for a short test spin to see if that fixes the boost problem. It might be a little noisy!
Some replace head bolts with ARP studs one at a time while they have the intake/valve cover off. Might be worth considering since you will be staring at them.
Most on here report being able to reuse the intake/valve cover gasket.
If you have not replaced Glow Plugs yet, it would be a good opportunity and very easy to do so with the intake/valve cover off the engine.

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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:29 pm 
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Back at it today, briefly. I did an injector "leak" test using the return lines. Inconclusive, but it appears that number 3 cylinder has more return fuel than the other three by about 25% after about 15 minutes at idle. Not sure that's really telling me much.

Edit: Some numbers: Cyl #1 100 ml, #2 75 ml, #3 120ml, #4 90 ml

Tried to pull the caps to check the timing but one is stuck and the hex key hole is pretty reamed out so I'll have to pull the alternator tomorrow to really get at it.

All parts arrived today, so tomorrow, if the timing checks ok and the cat gets cut out with no effect, the top comes off to do the rocker arms.....

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2006 Liberty CRD, currently loaned out to my college girl :-(
2001 VW Jetta TDI, 265,000 miles and counting...
2004 VW Jetta TDI
2009 VW Jetta TDI (totaled)
2006 Ford F-350 diesel


Last edited by five7driver on Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:26 pm 
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The timing checks out ok--all 3 pins align, best I can tell.

Cut the exhaust pipe off at the cat. Ran like crap--went immediately into limp mode with no power at all. Probably due to the fact that I have the accessory belt removed (?) because I had to take the alternator off to check timing.

Too much disconnected now to worry about it, I'm diving into removing the intake to do the rocker arms.

Any advice on getting this stupid harness out of the way? Best I can do is try to disconnect everything on the passenger side and then pull back the "Y" harness to the drivers side and tie it up out of the way. Is that what everyone else does?

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2006 Liberty CRD, currently loaned out to my college girl :-(
2001 VW Jetta TDI, 265,000 miles and counting...
2004 VW Jetta TDI
2009 VW Jetta TDI (totaled)
2006 Ford F-350 diesel


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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:50 am 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
Remove the Nitro Hood Struts

Use a prop rod to raise the hood a bit higher

Use Bungee cords to keep the wiring out of the way.

This pic shows with the Front pass loom connected.
Image

From this point,
Remove the Battery and tray. (disconnect the power distribution module from the battery tray)
Disconnect and tag: (anti-clockwise from air filter box)
MAF Sensor
Mercedes intake sensor
Coolant Temp sensor
All Injector connectors
Both Alternator connections
Fuel Quantity Solenoid connector
A/C connectors
FCV connector
Glow Plug connector
EGR solenoid connector
(optional, helpful if you're installing Weeks kits) - Remove front drive shaft, Starter Solenoid wire, starter power wire, remove starter.
Fuel Pressure Sensor connector
MAP Sensor connector
Fuel Pressure Solenoid connector
CMP (camshaft position sensor) connector

At this point, you can take the loom from the airbox area, and fold it (with the alternator connectors and PDM) up over the brake booster area, and secure from the hood with bungees.

All Electrical will be well and completely out of your way. Once you've done this a time or 2, it will be faster to do the list, than to read it.

I may have forgotten something, but doubtful. I Did include the AC, but I can't remember for positive sure if it was absolutely necessary. I think it comes off the same loom arm with the FQS wires, but it's too wet and windy to go check right now.

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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:28 am 
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Thanks for the bungee cord tip. It works reasonably well, still have to push around the harness attached to the firewall but I guess that's as good as it gets.

I got the intake off today. The #3 exhaust valve rocker arms show signs of damage, but they are not broken. The roller bearings are worn out completely, but no needle bearings falling out yet and there is scoring on the top of the rocker arm around that roller. Also on one of the valves the lifter has come apart where it is crimped together at the top. Looks like the crimp ring broke off. I'll try to get pictures posted.
EDIT:
Image
Here you can see that the small ring that is crimped to the top of the lifter has broken off allowing the lifter to separate. Also, on the upper rocker arm you can see that the roller bearing is hanging down loose and is completely worn out. These are both off of the #3 exhaust valves.

Image

And here are the injectors, #1 at bottom, #4 at top. The suspect cylinder is #3 and you can see how dirty #3 injector is.

Image

Here is a closer view with #3 on top, #2 on bottom. #3 is covered with soot at the tip and oily gunk on the body. This looks like incomplete combustion to me.

Is what I'm seeing enough to cause the symptoms I'm having? It seems like the only result of this would be that those exhaust valves (or at least the one with the broken lifter) would simply remain closed by spring force. I'm having a hard time seeing how this would have the effects I'm getting.

Anyone?

Also, is there any reason to replace the intake bolts? Is this an "always replace" item? They don't seem to be under a lot of torque, so I'm inclined to reuse them. And is there any particular tightening order, or do I just skip around and tighten evenly?

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2006 Liberty CRD, currently loaned out to my college girl :-(
2001 VW Jetta TDI, 265,000 miles and counting...
2004 VW Jetta TDI
2009 VW Jetta TDI (totaled)
2006 Ford F-350 diesel


Last edited by five7driver on Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:58 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Exhaust valves not operating properly could certainly cause an engine not to run normally and lack power! :roll:

As to the intake, see enclosed diagram:

Image

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Last edited by WWDiesel on Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:22 pm 
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five7driver wrote:
Thanks for the bungee cord tip. It works reasonably well, still have to push around the harness attached to the firewall but I guess that's as good as it gets.

I got the intake off today. The #3 exhaust valve rocker arms show signs of damage, but they are not broken. The roller bearings are worn out completely, but no needle bearings falling out yet and there is scoring on the top of the rocker arm around that roller. Also on one of the valves the lifter has come apart where it is crimped together at the top. Looks like the crimp ring broke off. I'll try to get pictures posted.

Unless you plan to sell the vehicle right away, I recommend replacing the. whole set

five7driver wrote:
Is what I'm seeing enough to cause the symptoms I'm having? It seems like the only result of this would be that those exhaust valves (or at least the one with the broken lifter) would simply remain closed by spring force. I'm having a hard time seeing how this would have the effects I'm getting.

Your original symptoms were
#1) Decent even idle
#2) Upon acceleration / revving would develop knock/miss
#3) Black exhaust/no power.

This is a rather mixed bag.
The things that normally cause #2 /#3 don't normally go with #1. (rockers)
The things that allow #1 with #2 (Crank Main Bearing knock) usually are independent from things that cause #3.
The things that cause #3 (choked air/too much fuel) are being addressed, it seems, without success.


five7driver wrote:
Also, is there any reason to replace the intake bolts? Is this an "always replace" item? They don't seem to be under a lot of torque, so I'm inclined to reuse them. And is there any particular tightening order, or do I just skip around and tighten evenly?

I used the same ones I removed. Haven't had a problem with them.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:11 pm 
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Thanks guys. Hey WW, did that diagram come from the fsm? I looked for one without success.

Yes, all of the rocker arms/lifters are being replaced today.

I did notice that many of the roller bearings (about half) were pretty worn out with a lot of play in them, but the ones on #3 exhaust were definitely the worst.

One other thing I just discovered: the cam lobe corresponding to the rocker that had the broken lifter appeared to have a slightly rough (like orange peel) texture on the lobe, not polished smooth like all of the others. It was smooth part of the way around, but where the lobe protrudes from the shaft it was rough. Could this be from too much (or no) contact with the roller? Is this camshaft shot or is it reusable? It isn't rough like sandpaper but kind of dimpled.

EDIT: Here is a pic
Image

You can see the rough surface of the lobe on the left, what I call #3 exhaust valve 1 (left is the front of engine) and the comparatively shiny surface of the lobe on the right #3 exhaust valve 2.

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2006 Liberty CRD, currently loaned out to my college girl :-(
2001 VW Jetta TDI, 265,000 miles and counting...
2004 VW Jetta TDI
2009 VW Jetta TDI (totaled)
2006 Ford F-350 diesel


Last edited by five7driver on Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:14 pm 
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five7driver wrote:
One other thing I just discovered: the cam lobe corresponding to the rocker that had the broken lifter appeared to have a slightly rough (like orange peel) texture on the lobe, not polished smooth like all of the others. It was smooth part of the way around, but where the lobe protrudes from the shaft it was rough. Could this be from too much (or no) contact with the roller? Is this camshaft shot or is it reusable? It isn't rough like sandpaper but kind of dimpled.

What it is likely from, is the roller facing a different direction (non-parallel) from the path of the exhaust camshaft lobe, during lift.

I would not reuse that camshaft, at very least. Considering the condition of the rollers that hadn't jumped ship, either replace both, or at very least, Mic all the lobes on both cams to determine amt of wear, and if the intake one is re-useable. (likely not)

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:28 pm 
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five7driver wrote:
Thanks guys. Hey WW, did that diagram come from the fsm? I looked for one without success.

Yes, all of the rocker arms/lifters are being replaced today.

I did notice that many of the roller bearings (about half) were pretty worn out with a lot of play in them, but the ones on #3 exhaust were definitely the worst.

One other thing I just discovered: the cam lobe corresponding to the rocker that had the broken lifter appeared to have a slightly rough (like orange peel) texture on the lobe, not polished smooth like all of the others. It was smooth part of the way around, but where the lobe protrudes from the shaft it was rough. Could this be from too much (or no) contact with the roller? Is this camshaft shot or is it reusable? It isn't rough like sandpaper but kind of dimpled.

Yes, it came from the FSM!

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Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/BatteryTray
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Samcos/ProVent
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Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/NAPA HDclutch
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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Are there specs on the camshaft lobes? I checked the fsm and all I can find are journal diameters and end play.

I read that less than .01" wear is acceptable, so I'll find wear on each lobe and compare them relative to each other.

Looks like I'm heading for new cams....

This car is costing more and more every time I open the hood. I see that there is one on ebay (whole car minus the turbo) for $3,000. Hmmmmm...

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2006 Liberty CRD, currently loaned out to my college girl :-(
2001 VW Jetta TDI, 265,000 miles and counting...
2004 VW Jetta TDI
2009 VW Jetta TDI (totaled)
2006 Ford F-350 diesel


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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:17 pm 
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How about this? :wink:

Image

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05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/BatteryTray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/NAPA HDclutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair, Huge K&N


Last edited by WWDiesel on Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:29 am 
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Thanks WW, that's good info. Looks like mine are in very good shape. I put a micro on them today and nothing was more than about .005 out from original spec IIRC. Just the one lobe with the suspicious wear of the "shine". I think I'll pull it and see what my machinist has to say. I have nothing to lose since idparts has the camshafts on backorder, might as well be doing something.

Also, that intake manifold tightening diagram? That's a generic one. I found the correct one in section 9, page 1624 of the fsm. It's very different, but the idea is basically the same. If I can figure photobucket out I'll post it....

Got it:
Image

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2006 Liberty CRD, currently loaned out to my college girl :-(
2001 VW Jetta TDI, 265,000 miles and counting...
2004 VW Jetta TDI
2009 VW Jetta TDI (totaled)
2006 Ford F-350 diesel


Last edited by five7driver on Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:16 pm 
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Ok, so I figured out that photobucket was out and set up an PostImage account--great! I went back in and inserted the photos above in the appropriate posts. This should help anyone assisting this diagnosis. As you can see, it's looking like I've found a smoking gun in the #3 rocker arm/lifter failure.

The exhaust camshaft is out being inspected and polished. Hopefully everything will go back together this weekend. In the meantime the egr has been deleted and Weeks stage 1 and 2 installed. The cat will be replaced with a flex pipe as well. This should pretty much rule out everything except turbo failure, which I doubt is the problem. We'll see...

One note to anyone removing the intake: take care to lift up completely on the intake before pulling it off the head. I elected to keep the fuel rail attached, so as a result a couple of the bolts would not come completely out of the intake. When I removed the intake the bolts caught on the gasket and mangled it up pretty badly. Fortunately I had already purchased a new gasket because, as you can see, the old one is completely unusable!

Image

If I had it to do over I would take the extra time and remove the fuel rail and all of the intake bolts before trying to lift the cover. Oh well, hind sight is 20/20 :roll:

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2006 Liberty CRD, currently loaned out to my college girl :-(
2001 VW Jetta TDI, 265,000 miles and counting...
2004 VW Jetta TDI
2009 VW Jetta TDI (totaled)
2006 Ford F-350 diesel


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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:07 am 
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Ok, it's been a few weeks, but I've been busy. The cam came back looking brand new and there was no measurable wear on the lobe that was polished smooth, so it went back in. Put everything back together and got it started...smooth start, smooth idle, and when revved to 2500 rpm it had none of the rattle/ping/hammering noise that was present before, so preliminary results are good!

Finished installing the flex pipe (de-cat) last night so it should be good for a test drive today when a few more things are put in (coolant reservoir, fan shroud, which I need to cut). Wish me luck... :|

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2006 Liberty CRD, currently loaned out to my college girl :-(
2001 VW Jetta TDI, 265,000 miles and counting...
2004 VW Jetta TDI
2009 VW Jetta TDI (totaled)
2006 Ford F-350 diesel


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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:01 am 
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five7driver wrote:
Ok, it's been a few weeks, but I've been busy. The cam came back looking brand new and there was no measurable wear on the lobe that was polished smooth, so it went back in. Put everything back together and got it started...smooth start, smooth idle, and when revved to 2500 rpm it had none of the rattle/ping/hammering noise that was present before, so preliminary results are good!

Finished installing the flex pipe (de-cat) last night so it should be good for a test drive today when a few more things are put in (coolant reservoir, fan shroud, which I need to cut). Wish me luck... :|

Best of luck! You are making the right mods... :wink:

_________________
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/BatteryTray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/NAPA HDclutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair, Huge K&N


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 Post subject: Re: No Boost
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:34 pm 
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It's looking good! Took it for a short test drive yesterday and it ran flawlessly. :BANANA:

Live data shows active response from the turbo and lots of power up hills with only some smoke. I think some of the smoke could be the result of all the foreign things that went into the engine in small amounts getting burned out (ie. crud on the injectors, grease on various parts, loosened up crud in the intake, etc.) so I think that should improve. Oil change next week. I'll post some numbers, results, and lessons learned when I get back to it on Monday.

Now working on a DIY tune to get rid of the egr mil...

_________________
2006 Liberty CRD, currently loaned out to my college girl :-(
2001 VW Jetta TDI, 265,000 miles and counting...
2004 VW Jetta TDI
2009 VW Jetta TDI (totaled)
2006 Ford F-350 diesel


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