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 Post subject: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:49 am 
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I installed the adjustable rear upper control arm from Iron Rock. I can reduce (and actually don't have much of a choice) the rear drive shaft angle to nearly straight at the differential. This would support a double cardan or "CV" joint (not really a CV joint just often called that). They are supposed to support lifts much better and vibrate much less.

This wouldn't require a slip yoke eliminator. The driveshaft would be made to the actual length I need so I don’t think there is any trouble to be had from the slip yoke. I would rather not have a slip yoke but the jumps the cost up quite a bit.

I am replacing the driver’s side cv shaft with a high flex from JBA and intend to raise the front to 3.25 inches.

Anyone have any experience or input?


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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:02 pm 
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Science and Energy wrote:
I installed the adjustable rear upper control arm from Iron Rock. I can reduce (and actually don't have much of a choice) the rear drive shaft angle to nearly straight at the differential. This would support a double cardan or "CV" joint (not really a CV joint just often called that). They are supposed to support lifts much better and vibrate much less.
This wouldn't require a slip yoke eliminator. The driveshaft would be made to the actual length I need so I don’t think there is any trouble to be had from the slip yoke. I would rather not have a slip yoke but the jumps the cost up quite a bit.
I am replacing the driver’s side cv shaft with a high flex from JBA and intend to raise the front to 3.25 inches.
Anyone have any experience or input?

These people build a conventional double cardan shaft for the Jeep Liberty and it does have a slip joint on the differential end.
See this web site for details and prices:> http://www.4xshaft.com/

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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:13 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Science and Energy wrote:
I installed the adjustable rear upper control arm from Iron Rock. I can reduce (and actually don't have much of a choice) the rear drive shaft angle to nearly straight at the differential. This would support a double cardan or "CV" joint (not really a CV joint just often called that). They are supposed to support lifts much better and vibrate much less.
This wouldn't require a slip yoke eliminator. The driveshaft would be made to the actual length I need so I don’t think there is any trouble to be had from the slip yoke. I would rather not have a slip yoke but the jumps the cost up quite a bit.
I am replacing the driver’s side cv shaft with a high flex from JBA and intend to raise the front to 3.25 inches.
Anyone have any experience or input?

These people build a conventional double cardan shaft for the Jeep Liberty and it does have a slip joint on the differential end.
See this web site for details and prices:> http://www.4xshaft.com/

Image


That's cool, except for the fact they require you to replace the pinion flange with requires you to replace the crush sleave and nut which requires you to replace the pinion seal and remove the rear pinion bearing and remove the differential so you can get the preload correct on the new crush sleave. I would get that double cardan joint if it weren't for all the other effort to change the flanges. :5SHOTS:

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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:43 am 
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I was thinking something more like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/182003885081?ul_noapp=true


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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:57 pm 
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Science and Energy wrote:
I was thinking something more like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/182003885081?ul_noapp=true


That driveshaft doesn't have flanges either that our Liberty's require?

Here is a direct answer to my question from 4xshaft.com. I think this is a kludge way to go and I would setup the pinion preload with a new crush sleeve and nut. Why 4xshaft.com doesn't make a direct replacement for our Liberty's beats me. Here's Tom's comments

Quote:
Yes, changing the pinion flange, to a yoke, would be required. However,,,, The purpose of the crush sleeve is to set the pre-load between the pinion head and tail bearings. With not enough pre-load, the pinion will thrust sideward under a load and destroy the ring & pinion gear. Too much pre-load and the bearings will fail prematurely if they don't just seize up. Setting the crush is simply compressing the crush sleeve, lengthwise, until it is the correct length required to properly space the pinion head & tail bearings.

Per factory instructions, in order to correctly install a crush sleeve, the differential needs to be completely disassembled. The crush sleeve is placed between the pinion head and tail bearing. Then the new yoke is installed, and the nut tightened. Correctly adjusting the "crush" or pre-load requires tightening the nut until it takes approximately 7 to 10 inch pounds of torque to rotate the pinion.

The above is a lot of work. This is the approach I give. It has worked well for me for about 30 years now:

Because the crush sleeve usually takes in excess of 200 FT/LBS. of torque on the nut to compress, and if you do not come close to reaching this torque on the nut, you will not over-crush the sleeve. So, I suggest when replacing the yoke, you clean the threads on the nut and the pinion with some good de-greaser. Then apply a liberal coating of a high temp, high strength, permanent thread locking compound such as Loc-Tite.

After doing this you simply tighten the nut to about 160 FT/LBS. of torque. This will not be enough to compress the crush sleeve, but it will be tight enough to properly load the bearings. With the combination of the torque on the nut and the thread locking compound, the nut should not back off.

Some people think that marking the nut in relation to the pinion and tightening the nut until the marks align is a good way to go. I suppose it would be, if you are reusing the original yoke. However, since you are using a new yoke, which may be slightly longer or shorter through the bore, I have my doubts on the accuracy of this method.

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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:12 am 
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One side is a sleeve for the slip yoke, the other mates with the universal on the flange. Your reuse your cast iron flange and attach it to the universal shown in the picture. I also sent him pictures and he told me what to measure and verified it would fit.

I only have about 3.25 lift in the back. In the future I might want to go to 4. With this cut to my current optimum length, I could lift it to 4 in the future without issue. No one seems to be having problems with their slip yoke and I doubt I would ever build this till I needed to do a SYE. The double cardan should eliminate most vibration and extend the life of the joints and diff/transfer case by having smoother operation and less flex at each joint. This seems like a very good upgrade.


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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:54 pm 
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Science and Energy wrote:
One side is a sleeve for the slip yoke, the other mates with the universal on the flange. Your reuse your cast iron flange and attach it to the universal shown in the picture. I also sent him pictures and he told me what to measure and verified it would fit.

I only have about 3.25 lift in the back. In the future I might want to go to 4. With this cut to my current optimum length, I could lift it to 4 in the future without issue. No one seems to be having problems with their slip yoke and I doubt I would ever build this till I needed to do a SYE. The double cardan should eliminate most vibration and extend the life of the joints and diff/transfer case by having smoother operation and less flex at each joint. This seems like a very good upgrade.


I guess I'm just dense. Are you saying we can get this driveshaft and just add our factory driveshaft rear flange to the new shaft end ujoint? If so I will get one. Yes the cardan is used when the output and input of the shaft are not in parallel as is the case with many lifts on many vehicles.

As seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=gmV4qwLfOMY

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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:33 am 
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I am not much more familiar with this than you, didn't mean to imply you are dense or something. Everything I can figure out on this says it is a great idea and that it works. We just reuse our flanges and have less vibrations and wear. Don’t know when I can afford to make the change but I will this summer.

"Are you saying we can get this driveshaft and just add our factory driveshaft rear flange to the new shaft end ujoint? " yes


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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:43 pm 
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Science and Energy wrote:
I am not much more familiar with this than you, didn't mean to imply you are dense or something. Everything I can figure out on this says it is a great idea and that it works. We just reuse our flanges and have less vibrations and wear. Don’t know when I can afford to make the change but I will this summer.

"Are you saying we can get this driveshaft and just add our factory driveshaft rear flange to the new shaft end ujoint? " yes


Didn't take anything you said as negative. I wrote the vendor and asked the same question mentioning a member on lostjeeps had inquired about using them on our libbys. He said he didn't see why it wouldn't work. I currently have a second order vibration between 40 and 50 that my Bosch Vibration Diagnostic device determined was the driveshaft. This is a second order vibration so it's not the ujoints (that's a first order) but a driveshaft alignment error. This happened after I installed the OME lift kit. I have the adjustable differential control arm I was gonna attempt to use to remove the vibration but that could be some trial and error to adjust the pinion flange angle correctly (i.e. trim height). I will use the new control arm but using this cardan joint it will not matter if the output and input flange angle are parallel.

So since life is short I just ordered one and will post up with the results. Since the output spine from the TC is gonna be exposed somewhat I need to find a boot to cover up this area.

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10/17 96K, New Head, Injectors, ARP Studs, HDS T-Stat
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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:40 pm 
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Just an update, my measurement for them was 31 1/4 inch. I should have the new drive line next week. 249.00 and 80.00 shipping, ouch!

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Purchased 2006 LIberty CRD 82K 01/16
SS Cat Back Exhaust, Full EGR Delete,Provent, Michelin 245/70 R16 AT/2
Stock Tune, Serpentine Belt Service,160 Amp Alternator
10/17 96K, New Head, Injectors, ARP Studs, HDS T-Stat
04/18 99K, New Reman Trans
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01/19 106K, OME Lift, Eaton TruTrac LSD in new rebuilt diff


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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 11:46 am 
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Did you put yours in yet?


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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 12:04 pm 
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Science and Energy wrote:
Did you put yours in yet?


Not yet, there was a delay in shipping. It should be here Monday. Will post updates then.

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Purchased 2006 LIberty CRD 82K 01/16
SS Cat Back Exhaust, Full EGR Delete,Provent, Michelin 245/70 R16 AT/2
Stock Tune, Serpentine Belt Service,160 Amp Alternator
10/17 96K, New Head, Injectors, ARP Studs, HDS T-Stat
04/18 99K, New Reman Trans
09/18 104K, Lift Pump
01/19 106K, OME Lift, Eaton TruTrac LSD in new rebuilt diff


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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 8:13 pm 
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Okay so I got the driveshaft today. It is really nice, precision balanced because dabs of weld material where added to the balance dicks as need. The 31 1/4 length was correct. The cardan joint has a removable forward yoke held down by grade 8 bolts.

BUT the yoke is for a 1 1/8 inch OD shaft and ours are 1 3/8 OD. 32 spline if I'm counting correctly. So I sent a message off to the vendor in NC and will update tomorrow.


Image

Image

Image

Image

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Purchased 2006 LIberty CRD 82K 01/16
SS Cat Back Exhaust, Full EGR Delete,Provent, Michelin 245/70 R16 AT/2
Stock Tune, Serpentine Belt Service,160 Amp Alternator
10/17 96K, New Head, Injectors, ARP Studs, HDS T-Stat
04/18 99K, New Reman Trans
09/18 104K, Lift Pump
01/19 106K, OME Lift, Eaton TruTrac LSD in new rebuilt diff


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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 11:06 am 
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What did they end up doing?


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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 2:59 am 
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Science and Energy wrote:
What did they end up doing?


I had to send the shaft back, they built the one for the np231 transfer case. the np242 has 32 spline and they use a 3 inch torque tube. Maybe I get the right shaft in a another 7 days. will update

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Purchased 2006 LIberty CRD 82K 01/16
SS Cat Back Exhaust, Full EGR Delete,Provent, Michelin 245/70 R16 AT/2
Stock Tune, Serpentine Belt Service,160 Amp Alternator
10/17 96K, New Head, Injectors, ARP Studs, HDS T-Stat
04/18 99K, New Reman Trans
09/18 104K, Lift Pump
01/19 106K, OME Lift, Eaton TruTrac LSD in new rebuilt diff


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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 5:43 pm 
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Any luck on the new shaft? I want to order one too but would be nice to know your setup outsider the length, I have a 242 as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 6:51 pm 
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Make sure you order the shaft for the NPN242

Here are the photos, you can see the gap I had pushing the shaft all the way forward onto the transfer case about 5/8 inch. You can see the final slip spacing after the shaft is bolted in. The measurement I gave them was 31 & 1/4 inch. I'm still evaluating it's vibration dampening.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Purchased 2006 LIberty CRD 82K 01/16
SS Cat Back Exhaust, Full EGR Delete,Provent, Michelin 245/70 R16 AT/2
Stock Tune, Serpentine Belt Service,160 Amp Alternator
10/17 96K, New Head, Injectors, ARP Studs, HDS T-Stat
04/18 99K, New Reman Trans
09/18 104K, Lift Pump
01/19 106K, OME Lift, Eaton TruTrac LSD in new rebuilt diff


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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 1:32 am 
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Update on the driveshaft. It's either completely out of balance the addition of the factory rear driveshaft flange (doubtful?) or it's not right for this vehicle for some reason. The 45-50 vibration I had with the factory shaft is less under power but I have a marked deceleration vibration (in or out of gear) and a radical vibration around 75-80.

I think I own a paperweight. Will email oliver's tomorrow and ask the shop. Ideas welcome.

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Purchased 2006 LIberty CRD 82K 01/16
SS Cat Back Exhaust, Full EGR Delete,Provent, Michelin 245/70 R16 AT/2
Stock Tune, Serpentine Belt Service,160 Amp Alternator
10/17 96K, New Head, Injectors, ARP Studs, HDS T-Stat
04/18 99K, New Reman Trans
09/18 104K, Lift Pump
01/19 106K, OME Lift, Eaton TruTrac LSD in new rebuilt diff


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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 1:50 am 
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It may just be my eyes or some trick of the light in the photo, but if it's possible, try putting your old front slip-yoke on the new driveshaft.

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 Post subject: Re: Double Cardan Upgrade?
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 7:37 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
It may just be my eyes or some trick of the light in the photo, but if it's possible, try putting your old front slip-yoke on the new driveshaft.


I have not checked that the length of the front slip yoke will be correct (enough) to replace the new driveshaft slip yoke. It could be too long, will check but before I do change anything please elaborate on why you would attempt this change? Do you suspect the weighted disk on the factory slip yoke prevents vibration? References?

While drive line assembly is something I use to bang out (literally changing ujoints daily) it's not my preference today. Thanks for the input.

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Purchased 2006 LIberty CRD 82K 01/16
SS Cat Back Exhaust, Full EGR Delete,Provent, Michelin 245/70 R16 AT/2
Stock Tune, Serpentine Belt Service,160 Amp Alternator
10/17 96K, New Head, Injectors, ARP Studs, HDS T-Stat
04/18 99K, New Reman Trans
09/18 104K, Lift Pump
01/19 106K, OME Lift, Eaton TruTrac LSD in new rebuilt diff


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