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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:02 pm 
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On the transmission - the drainback problem is not a CRD specific issue, ANY vehicle with this transmission has this problem where it doesn't want to get moving for about 20 seconds in the first run of the day. There is a rubber flap in the spin-on filter that is supposed to prevent the torque converter from draining and letting the fluid back to the pan. If that flap is sagging, then it will not close and cause a pressure lock as the converter tries to drain by gravity.

This is not a problem, it is just an annoyance. Start and idle the engine FIRST and then situate yourself, put away your things for the day, put on seatbelt etc... And then it will be ready to leave.

As for the level - the dipstick is TOO LONG from the factory and hits the bottom of the pan and turns - it should not do this and because of this, "full" on the stick is actually JUST ABOUT AT THE BOTTOM OF THE ACCEPTED RANGE. From the "full" mark, these seem to be happiest with either 1 or 2 quarts extra. The system is HUGE, there is plenty of room for a bit extra. Trust how it performs, not the stick level - at least initially. Then mark the stick (scratch it with a file) at the correct level when you are satisfied.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:37 pm 
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geordi wrote:
On the transmission - the drainback problem is not a CRD specific issue, ANY vehicle with this transmission has this problem where it doesn't want to get moving for about 20 seconds in the first run of the day. There is a rubber flap in the spin-on filter that is supposed to prevent the torque converter from draining and letting the fluid back to the pan. If that flap is sagging, then it will not close and cause a pressure lock as the converter tries to drain by gravity.

This is not a problem, it is just an annoyance. Start and idle the engine FIRST and then situate yourself, put away your things for the day, put on seatbelt etc... And then it will be ready to leave.

As for the level - the dipstick is TOO LONG from the factory and hits the bottom of the pan and turns - it should not do this and because of this, "full" on the stick is actually JUST ABOUT AT THE BOTTOM OF THE ACCEPTED RANGE. From the "full" mark, these seem to be happiest with either 1 or 2 quarts extra. The system is HUGE, there is plenty of room for a bit extra. Trust how it performs, not the stick level - at least initially. Then mark the stick (scratch it with a file) at the correct level when you are satisfied.


Copy that. Had forgotten about the transmission dipstick; will check fluid levels after driving some more later today and see where it sits.

Did manage to bypass the turbo vacuum actuator to see if that made any difference, which it didn't. Not considering that to be a potential cause for now.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:32 pm 
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Good advise on the too long dipstick. Some simply cut about a half inch off the bottom of the stick and remark it.
I bent a lazy "Z" in mine to shorten it but still run it a quart overfull.
The SunCoast may hold a little more ATF, but overfilling the tranny according to the full mark on the stick will make it happy.
These transmissions perform best when slightly overfilled.... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:03 pm 
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casm wrote:
geordi wrote:
On the transmission - the drainback problem is not a CRD specific issue, ANY vehicle with this transmission has this problem where it doesn't want to get moving for about 20 seconds in the first run of the day. There is a rubber flap in the spin-on filter that is supposed to prevent the torque converter from draining and letting the fluid back to the pan. If that flap is sagging, then it will not close and cause a pressure lock as the converter tries to drain by gravity.

This is not a problem, it is just an annoyance. Start and idle the engine FIRST and then situate yourself, put away your things for the day, put on seatbelt etc... And then it will be ready to leave.

As for the level - the dipstick is TOO LONG from the factory and hits the bottom of the pan and turns - it should not do this and because of this, "full" on the stick is actually JUST ABOUT AT THE BOTTOM OF THE ACCEPTED RANGE. From the "full" mark, these seem to be happiest with either 1 or 2 quarts extra. The system is HUGE, there is plenty of room for a bit extra. Trust how it performs, not the stick level - at least initially. Then mark the stick (scratch it with a file) at the correct level when you are satisfied.


Copy that. Had forgotten about the transmission dipstick; will check fluid levels after driving some more later today and see where it sits.

Did manage to bypass the turbo vacuum actuator to see if that made any difference, which it didn't. Not considering that to be a potential cause for now.


Did you bypass the one with the little air filter, or the other one with the blue nubs? The one with the air filter is the vacuum modulator, the one with the blue nubs is a vacuum solenoid. The solenoid is a popular failure point, and is completely useless of a part - it closes to seal off the vacuum storage box so that the turbo is maintained with vacuum energy even when the engine is off. Why this matters, I haven't a clue. But when it dies, it frequently gets stuck closed, and the turbo gets no vacuum so you get no boost.

You can bypass that very easily - pull the supply hose from it and connect that directly to the vacuum box. The sizes are a bit different, a small ziptie can help as a "hose clamp" here for the test.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:33 pm 
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For reference and as a test, this is what he is talking about:
Connect hose "A" to position "B" as shown in second picture. This bypasses the vacuum reservoir solenoid and the vacuum reservoir.
The vacuum solenoid has a history of failure.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:46 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
For reference and as a test, this is what he is talking about:
Connect hose "A" to position "B" as shown in second picture. This bypasses the vacuum reservoir solenoid and the vacuum reservoir.
The vacuum solenoid has a history of failure.


That's exactly the method I used, but it made no difference.

Wasn't able to get the transmission sufficiently warmed up to be able to check fluid levels (and overfill) before it got dark last night. Will do that today.

Unexpectedly busy week already. Trying to cram everything in is... Interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:54 pm 
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Pardon me for not reading every post in this thread...

You've determined that its not a fuel system problem, correct?
And you now think its a low turbo boost problem?
Have you checked the MAP sensor?
Do you have a way of reading actual boost from the turbo?
What codes are you getting?

If you really want to test the turbo itself, connect a vacuum line directly from outlet port of the vacuum reservoir to the vacuum actuator on the turbo.
This will bypass both solenoids and set the turbo to FULL boost.
Then take it for a drive.
You shouldn't get too far before a overboost code is set and the engine goes into limp mode.
If it doesn't go into limp mode, then there is definitely a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:59 pm 
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Was able to get the transmission fully-warm and had a few minutes to check levels. Fluid was exactly on the top hot mark on the dipstick, which is where it's been since the TC and pump were replaced. This is a good sign, as it means there are no leaks.

Added approximately a half-quart of Castrol Transmax ATF+4. This brought the fluid level up to roughly a half-inch above the top hot mark. Drove around for a few minutes and noticed a definite improvement in terms of performance off the line as well as through the gears. Will have to wait for tomorrow morning to see how the cold start behaviour is, but this promising.

Soot's still about the same, but at least one issue seems to be in the process of being resolved :mrgreen:

Thanks for the help, folks; it's very much appreciated. More news to follow as I have it.

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Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
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Last edited by casm on Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:05 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
Pardon me for not reading every post in this thread...

You've determined that its not a fuel system problem, correct?


At this point, there are no apparent leaks. I'm not ruling out air in the fuel completely, but I'm also not seeing it as necessarily being the cause.

Quote:
And you now think its a low turbo boost problem?


Maybe. Low transmission pressure may also have been partially at play, at least as far as some of the performance issues went; see my reply above.

Quote:
Have you checked the MAP sensor?


Yes. Pre-emptively cleaned it and put it back in service. No reason to believe that it has failed at this time, though it is possible that it may be in a limbo state that isn't throwing a code.

Quote:
Do you have a way of reading actual boost from the turbo?


Yes, via OBD-II. Will check again when time permits.

Quote:
What codes are you getting?


None, and no codes were stored as of the last check two days ago.

Quote:
If you really want to test the turbo itself, connect a vacuum line directly from outlet port of the vacuum reservoir to the vacuum actuator on the turbo.
This will bypass both solenoids and set the turbo to FULL boost.
Then take it for a drive.
You shouldn't get too far before a overboost code is set and the engine goes into limp mode.
If it doesn't go into limp mode, then there is definitely a problem.


I've done the bypass check WWDiesel outlined above. There was no change in soot or performance, and no codes thrown. Is this the same bypass you're referencing?

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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:02 pm 
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ebbnflow wrote:
Sounds like you're getting air in the fuel system. Does your card have a gen 2 fuel filter head? Check the heater plug on the filter head for diesel. The pins in the plug fail and allow air to enter the fuel head there. A gen 2 fuel head and a lift pump are the cure for air in fuel issues.

I didn't do the in tank pump. I added a facet lift pump next to the battery and that cured my air in fuel issues. This doesn't cure Air in Fuel problems. All it does is mask them by forcing the air through the already overworked Cascade Overflow Valve and return the majority of the forced-in air to the tank with the extra cooling and lubricating diesel from the CP3. But if masking the issue is good enough, it is the cheaper option.

Edit:. The main fuel pump (cp3) rarely fails. Absolutely true.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:16 am 
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Minor update: did a 50-mile round trip yesterday after doing the first half-quart transmission overfill. There was a noticeable improvement in responsiveness and shift quality, but it's still not quite what I'd consider 100%. Will add another half-quart of ATF+4 later today after I can get it warmed-up again and see where things sit after that.

Ordered a replacement MAP sensor (another GM 55206797). Notes showed that it was replaced in January of 2018, which was before the Weeks kit went in. Knowing that it had been cleaned multiple times as part of chasing down various things, I decided to work on the assumption that it had finally given up the ghost and replace it in the interests of seeing if there was any change.

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HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:51 pm 
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casm wrote:
Minor update: did a 50-mile round trip yesterday after doing the first half-quart transmission overfill. There was a noticeable improvement in responsiveness and shift quality, but it's still not quite what I'd consider 100%. Will add another half-quart of ATF+4 later today after I can get it warmed-up again and see where things sit after that.
Ordered a replacement MAP sensor (another GM 55206797). Notes showed that it was replaced in January of 2018, which was before the Weeks kit went in. Knowing that it had been cleaned multiple times as part of chasing down various things, I decided to work on the assumption that it had finally given up the ghost and replace it in the interests of seeing if there was any change.

That's a very good preemptive move to rule out the MAP sensor as causing a problem. I actually tote a spare MAP sensor in my glove box just in case.

I still don't believe you have entirely ruled out "air in fuel" as being a contributor? Only sure way is to add an in-tank fuel pump or at a minimum an in-line fuel pump.
The whole system is under a vacuum (suction) from the back of the CP3 to all the way inside the fuel tank, so if there is a "LEAK", it will suck air in, it will NOT leak fuel OUT in most cases! So you will not see visible signs of fuel leakage at a leak point.

If you go the simpler in-line fuel pump route, replace both the slip on factory fittings, one on top of the fuel tank and the other where the rubber hose connects to the metal line at the body that goes all the way to the fuel filter head. Those slip on fittings are designed for pressure sealing and are not designed to seal vacuum.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:40 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
I still don't believe you have entirely ruled out "air in fuel" as being a contributor? Only sure way is to add an in-tank fuel pump or at a minimum an in-line fuel pump.


Agreed that it's not 100% ruled out, but I am considering it to be less-likely for now. Having said that, I'm also in agreement re: the in-tank pump. Unfortunately, that one's going to have to wait.

Quote:
The whole system is under a vacuum (suction) from the back of the CP3 to all the way inside the fuel tank, so if there is a "LEAK", it will suck air in, it will NOT leak fuel OUT in most cases! So you will not see visible signs of fuel leakage at a leak point.


Understood. The check for leaks has been to reassure myself that there isn't something obviously-wrong happening; having said that, the scenario you're describing is still a possibility.

Quote:
If you go the simpler in-line fuel pump route, replace both the slip on factory fittings, one on top of the fuel tank and the other where the rubber hose connects to the metal line at the body that goes all the way to the fuel filter head. Those slip on fittings are designed for pressure sealing and are not designed to seal vacuum.


Gotcha. I've decided to skip the inline pump and do the in-tank one instead, but that's going to be on hold for a while. This last round of work was not cheap, and I need to get out from under that before moving on to this one. Tyres are also looking as though they'll be necessary sooner rather than later, and those may end up nudging out the pump in order of priority.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:17 pm 
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casm wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
I still don't believe you have entirely ruled out "air in fuel" as being a contributor? Only sure way is to add an in-tank fuel pump or at a minimum an in-line fuel pump.

Agreed that it's not 100% ruled out, but I am considering it to be less-likely for now. Having said that, I'm also in agreement re: the in-tank pump. Unfortunately, that one's going to have to wait.
Quote:
The whole system is under a vacuum (suction) from the back of the CP3 to all the way inside the fuel tank, so if there is a "LEAK", it will suck air in, it will NOT leak fuel OUT in most cases! So you will not see visible signs of fuel leakage at a leak point.

Understood. The check for leaks has been to reassure myself that there isn't something obviously-wrong happening; having said that, the scenario you're describing is still a possibility.
Quote:
If you go the simpler in-line fuel pump route, replace both the slip on factory fittings, one on top of the fuel tank and the other where the rubber hose connects to the metal line at the body that goes all the way to the fuel filter head. Those slip on fittings are designed for pressure sealing and are not designed to seal vacuum.

Gotcha. I've decided to skip the inline pump and do the in-tank one instead, but that's going to be on hold for a while. This last round of work was not cheap, and I need to get out from under that before moving on to this one. Tyres are also looking as though they'll be necessary sooner rather than later, and those may end up nudging out the pump in order of priority.

All good points, but if it won't run properly, tires get very little wear.... :juggle:

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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:49 am 
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Things are progressing slowly on this front right now due to real life getting in the way, but I'm hoping to pick up some speed as the week goes on.

Replaced the MAP sensor with another GM part. Throttle response definitely improved somewhat, but soot remains the same.

Reflashed the ECU with Yeti's Stage 4 tune just in case there was something goofy stored in it. No appreciable change.

Replacement fuel filter should get here tomorrow. I don't think that changing it is going to make much difference, but seeing as how the fuel system had to be decontaminated it can't hurt to replace it; it's possible that the filter elements are gunked or damaged.

One thing that has been consistent throughout this whole episode is low-end power delivery: there's plenty of soot along with very little going on below about 1600rpm, followed by the engine waking up and suddenly deciding to get moving. However, even above about 2000rpm, power output feels limited compared to what it was previously.

This is really looking like a multi-layered problem - and I'm not disregarding the in-tank pump idea by saying that - but if the issue's in the intake path, I haven't been able to track it down, which is frustrating. I'll see where things sit after the fuel filter, though I suspect there will be more troubleshooting to come.

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OME 1.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:31 pm 
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Had another thought on your problem that just hit me! Since your problem started right after filling up with most likely contaminated fuel.
And you have changed filters, and treated with diesel fuel conditioners and it has not fixed the problem.

What if; the problem is the fine mesh intake screen pickup inside the fuel tank is almost completely clogged?
Even though you do not have an in-tank fuel pump installed, your fuel tank module still has a fine mesh screen pickup inside the OEM module at the bottom from where the CP3 has to suck the fuel.

If you have to drop the fuel tank to check, it may be a good time to install an in-tank fuel pump module.
Just thinking..... :ALONE:

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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:13 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Had another thought on your problem that just hit me! Since your problem started right after filling up with most likely contaminated fuel.
And you have changed filters, and treated with diesel fuel conditioners and it has not fixed the problem.


Filter change will happen tomorrow - but yep, not expecting much of a change once that happens.

Quote:
What if; the problem is the fine mesh intake screen pickup inside the fuel tank is almost completely clogged?


That's a reallly good point. Hadn't considered that, but you're right: it very well could be clogged.

Quote:
Even though you do not have an in-tank fuel pump installed, your fuel tank module still has a fine mesh screen pickup inside the OEM module at the bottom from where the CP3 has to suck the fuel.

If you have to drop the fuel tank to check, it may be a good time to install an in-tank fuel pump module.
Just thinking..... :ALONE:


Nope, those are really good points. Need to get clear of the cost of the last round of work, but I do agree. And if there's one thing I really loathe, it's doing the same job twice...

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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:48 pm 
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Today was an interesting one as far as this issue goes.

Went on about a 50-mile round trip. 90% of it was freeway driving. On the way up, performace started intermittently coming close to where it was before all of this started. Soot was still the same, though.

On the way back, the same behaviour continued. However, the Jeep finally threw a CEL. Codes were:

  • P0101 (MAF Sensor) - interesting, because I deleted the MIL for this code from the tune (Yeti's Stage 4) that I'm running. Will double-check that this is the case, but I'm 100% positive that it is.
  • P0093 (Fuel leak problem) - not sure how it's determining a fuel leak, but I'm skeptical that this is the actual fault.
  • P2264 (Water in Fuel Sensor Circuit) - OK, maybe I have a crappy WIF sensor, or it's not reading correctly since the filter was changed a couple of weeks ago.

Any ideas on the above?

In any event, the replacement fuel filter arrived today. Haven't installed it yet; that will have to wait for morning.

_________________
2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
225/75R16 Goodyear TrailRunner ATs
OME 1.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
V6 Airbox


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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:07 pm 
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Location: Central GA
casm wrote:
Today was an interesting one as far as this issue goes.
Went on about a 50-mile round trip. 90% of it was freeway driving. On the way up, performace started intermittently coming close to where it was before all of this started. Soot was still the same, though.
On the way back, the same behaviour continued. However, the Jeep finally threw a CEL. Codes were:
  • P0101 (MAF Sensor) - interesting, because I deleted the MIL for this code from the tune (Yeti's Stage 4) that I'm running. Will double-check that this is the case, but I'm 100% positive that it is.
  • P0093 (Fuel leak problem) - not sure how it's determining a fuel leak, but I'm skeptical that this is the actual fault.
  • P2264 (Water in Fuel Sensor Circuit) - OK, maybe I have a crappy WIF sensor, or it's not reading correctly since the filter was changed a couple of weeks ago.
Any ideas on the above?
In any event, the replacement fuel filter arrived today. Haven't installed it yet; that will have to wait for morning.

Is yours the 811 file like mine?

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 Post subject: Re: Hoping this isn't a sign of a failing fuel pump
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:19 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Is yours the 811 file like mine?


Yep, but edited to remove DTCs for codes P0101, P1140, P0401, and P0403.

_________________
2005 KJ CRD Limited 4x4:
225/75R16 Goodyear TrailRunner ATs
OME 1.5" Lift
JBA Lifted A-Arms
IRO WJ Short Rear UCA/WWDiesel mount
Skid Row Skidplates
HDS Model 001 Thermostat (190°F)
Suncoast TC
Full Weeks Kit
Bosch 5V glow plugs
Hayden 2986 fan clutch / GM 11-blade fan
Samco / Sasquatch Intake Hoses
Carter in-tank pump
Provent 200
V6 Airbox


Top
 Profile  
 
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