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 Post subject: Re: Engine fan hub bearing!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:18 pm 
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layback40 wrote:
I have fitted these sorts of bearings in agricultural (tractor) applications in years gone by. VM have a presence in those markets with some EU tractors having VM engines.
Probably a few spots of weld on the back end of the shaft prior to assembly is what is required. A spacer (washers?) between the bearing & the pulley on the front & would be good to go.
Has anyone contacted VM engine specialists in the UK to see if they can supply the bearing?
Good luck with the project!

VM specialists are not the easiest people to deal with. Sent them some emails about the fan bracket and all they offered were some used ones.
The exchange price and shipping costs were going to be quite expensive for a used part.
Did not get into asking about a replacement bearing from them.
I still think rebuilding with new bearings is the better way to go and will be more cost effective.
Once I get it all figured out, I will set up an exchange program for anyone needing one.

If you can find the OEM bearing down under, PM me, maybe we can work something out. If you need all the measurements I can supply them to you.
I toyed with the idea of asking Yeti if he could find the OEM bearings since he is in Italy and that is where the engine was built. :idea:
Someone supplied the bearing to VM and it is probably a common off the shelf bearing in that part of the world.
Hopefully I will have one completed and available by the end of next week after all the parts and my reamer tool gets here on Wednesday.....
Will post some pictures once done!

I ordered some 20mm shaft lock collars with set screw to use on the front side of the bearing. I welded a machine washer on the back end of the shaft, so it will be well protected from any movement. The bearings I am using have to be pressed on the shaft. I even used some RED loctite when pressing the bearings onto the shaft as an added precaution. The bearings will be held in place in the housing with two 8mm set screws and loctite.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine fan hub bearing!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:54 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
layback40 wrote:
I have fitted these sorts of bearings in agricultural (tractor) applications in years gone by. VM have a presence in those markets with some EU tractors having VM engines.
Probably a few spots of weld on the back end of the shaft prior to assembly is what is required. A spacer (washers?) between the bearing & the pulley on the front & would be good to go.
Has anyone contacted VM engine specialists in the UK to see if they can supply the bearing?
Good luck with the project!

VM specialists are not the easiest people to deal with. Sent them some emails about the fan bracket and all they offered were some used ones.
The exchange price and shipping costs were going to be quite expensive for a used part.
Did not get into asking about a replacement bearing from them.
I still think rebuilding with new bearings is the better way to go and will be more cost effective.
Once I get it all figured out, I will set up an exchange program for anyone needing one.

If you can find the OEM bearing down under, PM me, maybe we can work something out. If you need all the measurements I can supply them to you.
I toyed with the idea of asking Yeti if he could find the OEM bearings since he is in Italy and that is where the engine was built. :idea:
Someone supplied the bearing to VM and it is probably a common off the shelf bearing in that part of the world.
Hopefully I will have one completed and available by the end of next week after all the parts and my reamer tool gets here on Wednesday.....
Will post some pictures once done!

I ordered some 20mm shaft lock collars with set screw to use on the front side of the bearing. I welded a machine washer on the back end of the shaft, so it will be well protected from any movement. The bearings I am using have to be pressed on the shaft. I even used some RED loctite when pressing the bearings onto the shaft as an added precaution. The bearings will be held in place in the housing with two 8mm set screws and loctite.

I think you are going about it the right way.
The bearing is not something I need at the moment & I dont have a hub in pieces otherwise I would have local bearing people in Australia looking out for me. But then never say never! Next time I am at my favorite bearing place I will ask about a 20/40 bearing or shaft bearing to suit. The fact that its a roller & ball combination concerns me a bit. Clearly the ball part is to prevent longitudinal movement & the roller to take the radial load. Dont know if the 3 ball races will have the same load rating as a roller. The front alternator bearing would be a single ball race & it survives so I suspect you will be safe.
Good luck with it!

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 Post subject: Re: Engine fan hub bearing!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:02 pm 
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layback40 wrote:
I think you are going about it the right way.
The bearing is not something I need at the moment & I dont have a hub in pieces otherwise I would have local bearing people in Australia looking out for me. But then never say never! Next time I am at my favorite bearing place I will ask about a 20/40 bearing or shaft bearing to suit. The fact that its a roller & ball combination concerns me a bit. Clearly the ball part is to prevent longitudinal movement & the roller to take the radial load. Dont know if the 3 ball races will have the same load rating as a roller. The front alternator bearing would be a single ball race & it survives so I suspect you will be safe.
Good luck with it!

I will construct a dimensional drawing of the OEM bearing and send to you so you can print it out so your local sources can view it and see if they can come up with a number to match.
Unfortunately the OEM bearing has NO identifying numbers or markings on it, I sure wish it did, it would make life simpler! :( :banghead:

I too was concerned about not having the roller bearing. But in talking to the bearing experts at Bearing & Drives he stated that by adding the additional roller bearing it should not be a concern.
We also discussed stress loading and speed ratings and he said the bearings I am using would more than handle both.
I am managing longitudinal loads and movement by adding the welded stop on the end of the shaft and by placing the 20mm shaft lock collar on the other side. Am hoping that by going from only two bearings (OEM) to three slightly larger bearings there will be more than enough surface area to handle the radial loads....
It might not be a bad idea to recommend only using this rebuilt fan hub with the 11 blade plastic fan to help reduce radial load stresses??? :juggle:

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 Post subject: Re: Engine fan hub bearing!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:02 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
I will construct a dimensional drawing of the OEM bearing and send to you so you can print it out so your local sources can view it and see if they can come up with a number to match.
Unfortunately the OEM bearing has NO identifying numbers or markings on it, I sure wish it did, it would make life simpler! :( :banghead:

I too was concerned about not having the roller bearing. But in talking to the bearing experts at Bearing & Drives he stated that by adding the additional roller bearing it should not be a concern.
We also discussed stress loading and speed ratings and he said the bearings I am using would more than handle both.
I am managing longitudinal loads and movement by adding the welded stop on the end of the shaft and by placing the 20mm shaft lock collar on the other side. Am hoping that by going from only two bearings (OEM) to three slightly larger bearings there will be more than enough surface area to handle the radial loads....
It might not be a bad idea to recommend only using this rebuilt fan hub with the 11 blade plastic fan to help reduce radial load stresses??? :juggle:

I replied to your email about 5 minutes ago. We can wait & see how long it takes to get across the pond!

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 Post subject: Re: Engine fan hub bearing!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:37 pm 
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layback40 wrote:
I replied to your email about 5 minutes ago. We can wait & see how long it takes to get across the pond!

Got it and responded!

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 Post subject: Re: Engine fan hub bearing!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:15 am 
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On a semi-related note, it is cool to see them use a ball and cylindrical bearings in a single unit. Cylindrical bearings are good large amounts of radial force, but are poor at managing force in the axial direction, thus the ball bearing.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine fan hub bearing!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:36 pm 
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65Corvair wrote:
On a semi-related note, it is cool to see them use a ball and cylindrical bearings in a single unit. Cylindrical bearings are good large amounts of radial force, but are poor at managing force in the axial direction, thus the ball bearing.

I totally agree, that is why I have searched diligently for a bearing of similar construction to the OEM bearing to no avail. There are several water pump bearings available that I found with the roller/ball bearing combo construction, but none with close enough dimensions in a usable size unfortunately. Most are too small, either the shaft diameter or the bearing OD! The OEM bearing is quite a large bearing as compared to whats available in water pump bearings that I was able to find online.
I could not find any roller bearing of the correct ID & OD size to use in combination with the two ball bearings. I wanted to use one roller and two ball bearing together in a combination to handle the loads.

I am hoping that by adding a third bearing along with having three slightly larger bearings, the load factor both axial and radial will not be a issue.
By distributing the axial and radial loads across three deep grove bearings it actually should be a more robust design than the OEM bearing since it had only one ball bearing to sustain the axial load and only one roller bearing to sustain the radial load.
Using three bearings equates to larger and more surface area to handle both type load factors.
I will still recommend using the 11 blade plastic either GM or Mopar fan to prolong bearing life and lower the load factor on the bearings for the rebuilt hub unit.

These are the load specs for the single "Deep Grove Ball Bearing" I am using.
so X3 for actual numbers:
Basic dynamic load rating--C--9.95--kN
Basic static load rating--C0--5--kN
Fatigue load limit--Pu--0.212--kN
-----
Reference speed-- --38000--r/min
Limiting speed-- --24000--r/min
Calculation factor--kr--0.025--
Calculation factor--f0--14

Any mechanical engineers see a problem, please comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine fan hub bearing!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:32 pm 
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The plot thickens!
Thanks for the drawing WW, I spoke with my bearing shop owner today. He said that some one was in about a year ago looking for the same bearing for an application on a New Holland agricultural machine. They were trying to get a non OEM bearing & he spent some time hunting. The closest he could get was 3/4" shaft 1 1/2" bearing outer & a bearing 54mm long. This is clearly a bit small in the diameters & the bearing length may be an issue. He said the guy was going to get the correct bearing from New Holland. We spent some time talking about the problem as he supplies a lot of stuff to the local jeep dealer, so much for genuine parts, they still charge their customers genuine prices.
The upside to this is that the bearing maybe obtainable from New Holland. I am not known at the New Holland dealer & so dont like my chances of them being much help to me. If some one on your side of the pond with a lot of agricultural gear could make inquiries there maybe a chance.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine fan hub bearing!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:51 pm 
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Update,
Finished reaming the hub housing to fit the new slightly larger bearings today. That reaming out and polishing is really time consuming! :banghead:
Got the new bearings installed in the hub with a 0.004mm press fit. Have a 1mm spacer between the first and second bearings to make the bearing stack the exact same length as the OEM bearing.
Will have two 1mm spacers between the first bearing the the fan belt pulley to ensure no movement allowed.
Red Loctite on everything!
All that remains is to press belt pulley on the hub shaft.
Got it all cleaned and painted today, will press pulley on tomorrow and the first rebuilt unit will be available.
I will post pictures tomorrow of finished product.

Still got a couple of members looking to source an OEM bearing in Canada and Australia.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Engine fan hub bearing!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:38 am 
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Good WORK and lots of it WW!

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 Post subject: Re: Engine fan hub bearing!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:30 pm 
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Very nice work! I wonder if sending a batch to the machine shop in the future will be worth the time savings/drive down the cost a bit? If you could run 10+ might be cheap. Not sure if they can set up a lathe to ream that, I'm guessing they'd have to also build a jig?

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 Post subject: Re: Engine fan hub bearing!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:29 pm 
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Mountainman wrote:
Very nice work! I wonder if sending a batch to the machine shop in the future will be worth the time savings/drive down the cost a bit? If you could run 10+ might be cheap. Not sure if they can set up a lathe to ream that, I'm guessing they'd have to also build a jig?

My thoughts exactly, the cast hub is such an odd shaped piece it would require some real finesse on the part of a machinist to build a precise jig since I am dealing with tolerances as small as 0.04 mm (0.0015748 in.) along with the fact it would have to be perfectly centered.
I want the bearings to be tight in the bore, but not too tight as we are dealing with cast iron here and I do not want it to crack. I heated the piece with hot water to expand it enough to press the new bearings in the bracket. Worked perfect.

I need to get my hands on a small metal lathe if this project takes on any merit, but that is a pretty hefty investment.
I actually know two people who have a lathe, one is a mechanical engineer that I worked with for years and the other is a retired tool and die maker.
I may contact one of them and see if they would be willing to bore some of the brackets out for me. Right now I only have two other brackets ready for boring/rebuilding.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine fan hub bearing!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:29 pm 
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Jeep Liberty CRD Mechanical Fan Hub (Rebuilt)
Picture of finished product:
Rebuilt using precision top quality bearings from a Commercial Bearing Supply Company. They are quite expensive as bearings go.
There are plenty of cheaper bearings available on line but I don't trust them, most are made in China or elsewhere overseas and are of questionable quality.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine fan hub bearing!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:34 pm 
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Looks great, do you plan on running it on your Jeep to prove out the durability of the new bearings?

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 Post subject: Re: Engine fan hub bearing!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:36 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Engine fan hub bearing!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:55 pm 
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65Corvair wrote:
Looks great, do you plan on running it on your Jeep to prove out the durability of the new bearings?

Was not planning on it as mine is OK right now.
Hoping to get some other fine tester who actually needs to replace theirs. :D

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