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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:22 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
TKB4 wrote:
Anyone know what California rules are for antique cars ( only about 10 more years to go!) ? What about engine swaps or transmission swaps?

1975 and older is exempt from emissions testing.
For engine swaps, it depends on which is newer, the engine or the chassis.
If you put a 2018 Chevy LS engine in your ‘55 Chevy, it has to meet 2018 standards.
If you are assembling a new custom or reproduction chassis and want to put a 1968 428 Cobra Jet engine in it, the engine has to meet the emissions standards for the date the chassis was assembled and assigned a VIN.

In the case of the ‘55 and the LS. As long as the car is registered as a 1955 and no “official” questions you about what’s under the hood, then all is good. But if you included all the cats and other emissions parts with your engine swap, you will have little to worry about.


One addition to that: any emissions devices fitted from 1968 onwards must now be installed and functional. Pre-1976 vehicles are still not required to be tested, but are subject to random inspection and if emissions gear is found to be missing, tampered, or broken can be impounded.

And yep, roadside inspection is a real thing. Got pulled into one three days before we moved out of California and one day after I'd had the car I was driving (being sold to someone else in California) smogged. The CHP officer manning the station refused to even look at the pass sheet from the day before and wasted 45 minutes of my day making it be re-smogged, then got pissed off that it passed. Guess I did something wrong by keeping my 25-year-old vehicle in proper running order.

That State... Oy.

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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:21 am 
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The problems come back to money - CARB has figured out that they can make WAY MORE money and have virtually no lobbyist interference with their crusade against anything motorized and not electric. Then there is the EPA, who for many years has just rubber-stamped whatever bull$#it CARB has coughed up, and tried to apply it to the rest of the country. To try and suggest that it has ANYTHING to do with Obama (or even Trump for that matter) is comedy.

This is bureaucracy. Administrations come and go, but bureaucracy is forever.

CARB a few years back was caught using completely garbage "science" in their anti-diesel crusade, b/c their chief scientist was debunked by his peer group and he was tossed out of his association.... BUT a CARB administrator (I think it was the head) was a fan of his work and was asked on the way to a meeting if she knew about his debunking.... And went to the meeting and presenting his trash anyway, so they could make policy based on it. This was all before the VW scandal, but IIRC it related to the nonsense contention that the diesel soot causes asthma or emphysema or genital warts or something.

The problem is that they aren't using good science. Soot can't be re-burned in a diesel, it isn't fuel. It is pure carbon. The soot also isn't capable of causing diseases, b/c the diesel particles are far too large (over 30 micron) to be absorbed by the body. The body can filter down to about 15 microns, anything larger than that is rejected. But the soot from a Prius (and YES it does exist!) is more like 5 micron in size... Easily able to pass through the lungs into the bloodstream. THAT'S science.

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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:05 am 
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geordi wrote:
The problems come back to money - CARB has figured out that they can make WAY MORE money and have virtually no lobbyist interference with their crusade against anything motorized and not electric. Then there is the EPA, who for many years has just rubber-stamped whatever bull$#it CARB has coughed up, and tried to apply it to the rest of the country. To try and suggest that it has ANYTHING to do with Obama (or even Trump for that matter) is comedy.


This is absolutely correct. CARB is completely hostile towards motor vehicles and their owners, and uses the 'common-sense regulation' line to justify it. They've been doing it since the 1970s, and have more or less run unchecked since that time.

There are so many things that agency has done that are anti-car and anti-car-owner it's not even funny. Keeping the air clean has nothing to do with their existence; forcing California's emissions and vehicle ownership agenda on the rest of the country (and, I believe, Quebec) is.

Quote:
This is bureaucracy. Administrations come and go, but bureaucracy is forever.


It's also a prime example of why government agencies with no public reporting or review responsibility are dangerous.

Quote:
CARB a few years back was caught using completely garbage "science" in their anti-diesel crusade, b/c their chief scientist was debunked by his peer group and he was tossed out of his association.... BUT a CARB administrator (I think it was the head) was a fan of his work and was asked on the way to a meeting if she knew about his debunking.... And went to the meeting and presenting his trash anyway, so they could make policy based on it. This was all before the VW scandal, but IIRC it related to the nonsense contention that the diesel soot causes asthma or emphysema or genital warts or something.


Don't forget the diesel certification stunts that CARB pulled back around the 2003-2004 timeframe. Basically, CARB certified a bunch of 2004 MY diesels for sale in California in 2003, then decided that the certifications were invalid after the cars had been on the market for three or four months. They revised the emissions targets, forcing manufacturers into a stop-sale on those models while they reworked the vehicles to meet the new targets. Once that was taken care of, the vehicles went back on sale... For another three or four months, at which point CARB pulled the same trick again on both 2004 and 2005 MY vehicles and history repeated itself.

Tangentally, I've heard that this is the reason why the KJ CRD was never sold new in California. Apparently DCX got so fed up with California's antics while trying to get the CRD approved for sale there that they just decided to skip the California market entirely rather than jump through the continuous certification hoops and subsequent build changes CARB was demanding. Because of this, the CRD was kept out of the single largest car market in the US, which in turn kept its production volume significantly lower for North America than it otherwise would have been. The next time you can't easily get <insert part here> for your diesel Liberty, be sure to thank CARB.

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The problem is that they aren't using good science. Soot can't be re-burned in a diesel, it isn't fuel. It is pure carbon. The soot also isn't capable of causing diseases, b/c the diesel particles are far too large (over 30 micron) to be absorbed by the body. The body can filter down to about 15 microns, anything larger than that is rejected. But the soot from a Prius (and YES it does exist!) is more like 5 micron in size... Easily able to pass through the lungs into the bloodstream. THAT'S science.


They've also claimed that fine-particulate dust suspended in the air is an automotive pollutant. You know, the stuff that blows in from the desert (or, if you're in the Central Valley, everywhere around you). The basis for this claim, when they were called on it, was that because the dust mixes in the air with automotive emissions, it's an automotive pollutant.

They were not amused when asked where that left birds, helicopters, and hang-gliders.

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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:28 am 
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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:17 am 
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Oh dear. It sounds like you guys are having the same issues we have in the Uk :banghead: Over here our so called “elected” dirtbags have been on the anti diesel warpath for a couple of years now. After 15 or so years of pushing diesel hard, almost overnight it all changed. It’s all a bit sneakier over here though, first the price of vehicle tax was put up on high polluting vehicles, which suddenly and based on some very dodgy science, diesel had become. Then the price of diesel started to creep up, as much as 15pence per litre above petrol. And trust me, our fuel prices are bloody criminal as it is. We also have an MOT test over here. It is supposed to be an annual vehicle safety test. But over the years it has become less about safety and more about governmental control. It has been illegal for some years to tamper in any way with emissions systems, but they have now made it part of the test, so if it has been, it gets classed as defective and you cant use it on the road until it is put back to manufacturers spec.They also check emissions, which if over manufacturers spec, is also a fail. There are all sorts that get checked, including your number plate, (License plate) which must have a British standards label on it, the plate must be a certain size, letters must be a certain size etc. Why?? Safety?? Nope, so that the thousands of ANPR camera’s that are dotted around this little island can read them, just for police use though, yeah right. Anyway back to diesel, there is now a huge push on electric vehicles, constant ads on tv, electric vehicles pay no road tax & you get a government incentive payment to put towards the price of the vehicle. Several cities, and more are following suit, are charging us penalty fees for driving in them, again based on how polluting your vehicle is, and of course a 2.8 diesel is right up there!! Hybrid or electric vehicles are of course free. The plan is quite simple, try to make owning a diesel so expensive & inconvenient that everyone gives up on them. Petrol will of course follow quickly behind. The environmentalists are the biggest voice now in the UK, despite the use of some very shaky science at times. Political parties want to be seen to be “green” and as long as they are, they can push through whatever political doo doo they like whilst all the time protecting the businesses & industries that are actually polluting the crap out of us all. Oh and on top of all this, if the police see or suspect that your vehicle is modified they can pull you & give you a vehicle defect order, and you guessed it, fix it & take it to an MOT station to get inspected within 14 days or it’s illegal to use on the road. :roll: Apparently, so I’m told, this is a free country!! :ROTFL: :ROTFL: Freedom= :dead:

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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:52 pm 
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Steve_N wrote:
Oh dear. It sounds like you guys are having the same issues we have in the Uk :banghead: Over here our so called “elected” dirtbags have been on the anti diesel warpath for a couple of years now. After 15 or so years of pushing diesel hard, almost overnight it all changed. It’s all a bit sneakier over here though, first the price of vehicle tax was put up on high polluting vehicles, which suddenly and based on some very dodgy science, diesel had become. Then the price of diesel started to creep up, as much as 15pence per litre above petrol. And trust me, our fuel prices are bloody criminal as it is. We also have an MOT test over here. It is supposed to be an annual vehicle safety test. But over the years it has become less about safety and more about governmental control. It has been illegal for some years to tamper in any way with emissions systems, but they have now made it part of the test, so if it has been, it gets classed as defective and you cant use it on the road until it is put back to manufacturers spec.They also check emissions, which if over manufacturers spec, is also a fail. There are all sorts that get checked, including your number plate, (License plate) which must have a British standards label on it, the plate must be a certain size, letters must be a certain size etc. Why?? Safety?? Nope, so that the thousands of ANPR camera’s that are dotted around this little island can read them, just for police use though, yeah right. Anyway back to diesel, there is now a huge push on electric vehicles, constant ads on tv, electric vehicles pay no road tax & you get a government incentive payment to put towards the price of the vehicle. Several cities, and more are following suit, are charging us penalty fees for driving in them, again based on how polluting your vehicle is, and of course a 2.8 diesel is right up there!! Hybrid or electric vehicles are of course free. The plan is quite simple, try to make owning a diesel so expensive & inconvenient that everyone gives up on them. Petrol will of course follow quickly behind. The environmentalists are the biggest voice now in the UK, despite the use of some very shaky science at times. Political parties want to be seen to be “green” and as long as they are, they can push through whatever political doo doo they like whilst all the time protecting the businesses & industries that are actually polluting the crap out of us all. Oh and on top of all this, if the police see or suspect that your vehicle is modified they can pull you & give you a vehicle defect order, and you guessed it, fix it & take it to an MOT station to get inspected within 14 days or it’s illegal to use on the road. :roll: Apparently, so I’m told, this is a free country!! :ROTFL: :ROTFL: Freedom= :dead:

And Steve, how does your county across the pond in the UK generate electricity to charge those wonderful electric vehicles the government and environmentalists are pushing?
Electricity is not free! There will never be enough solar and wind generation in the world to replace fossil and nuclear generation.
Environmentalists and idiots in governments never ever want to talk about this little fact. As electric vehicle use goes up, so does demand for electricity which causes more fossil and nuclear fuel to be burned. :grim:
And who creates the most pollution going into the atmosphere and into the ground i.e. mercury, arsenic, heavy metals, coal ash, in the air and into the ground (ash ponds) and spent nuclear fuel going underground that will be radioactive for hundreds of years.
I rest my case your Honor! I worked in the Power Industry for over 40 years and know more than I want to know.
Don't get me started on these idiotic lunatic environmentalist hypocrites. :furious:
Diesels are a drop in the bucket when it comes to actual pollution generators world wide but I guess they were easy targets! :juggle:

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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:03 pm 
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You gotta admit. Electric cars are pretty cool.
You get to fill up your tank every time you come home from work.
And if you’re lucky you can even fill up while you’re at work.
But they are not the transportation solution for every commuter and transportation service.

I grew up in Southern California.
In that region the greatest contributor to air pollution is cars and trucks.
Back in the 80’s air quality was really really bad.
In the 90’s air quality improved.
Now, the population in the region has grown, there a more cars on the road, traffic is twice as bad, and air quality is as bad as it was 35 years ago.
So I understand why California feels the need to have tougher emissions standards.
But those standards shouldn’t be forced on the rest of country.
Some states require emissions tests on vehicles but most do not.
Some enforce emissions only in urban areas while rural areas are exempt.

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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:55 am 
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Steve_N: just to give you some background: I'm Irish, now living in the US. Also spent 4 years in the UK at University, and remember very well what happened when both countries went fully-unleaded (and subsequently introduced emissions controls). A few things regarding that:

Steve_N wrote:
Oh dear. It sounds like you guys are having the same issues we have in the Uk :banghead: Over here our so called “elected” dirtbags have been on the anti diesel warpath for a couple of years now. After 15 or so years of pushing diesel hard, almost overnight it all changed.


The parallels here with the situation in the UK (and rest of Europe) are staggering. It hasn't quite reached the same point yet, but I can see it sliding that way.

Quote:
It’s all a bit sneakier over here though, first the price of vehicle tax was put up on high polluting vehicles, which suddenly and based on some very dodgy science, diesel had become. Then the price of diesel started to creep up, as much as 15pence per litre above petrol. And trust me, our fuel prices are bloody criminal as it is.


If we were driving from Northern Ireland back into the Republic (or taking the ferry back, etc.), it used to be that the last thing we'd do before crossing the border was fill up the car because petrol (and diesel) prices were 20% to 30% lower. Now it's the other way around - fill up before entering the North, or getting on the boat in Ireland.

What annoys me is that the people fighting the hardest to price diesel out of the market fail to understand how much industry and commerce are dependent on it. Ships, HGVs, trains, generators, etc. all run on the stuff. By pushing up the price of the fuel (even when purchased at a reduced VAT rate), there are knock-on effects on the economy. And I'd like to know how an electrical generator is supposed to be powered by electricity in order to generate electricity.

Quote:
We also have an MOT test over here. It is supposed to be an annual vehicle safety test. But over the years it has become less about safety and more about governmental control. It has been illegal for some years to tamper in any way with emissions systems, but they have now made it part of the test, so if it has been, it gets classed as defective and you cant use it on the road until it is put back to manufacturers spec.They also check emissions, which if over manufacturers spec, is also a fail.


Just like California (more on them in a bit), except that California only tests for emissions, not roadworthiness.

Quote:
There are all sorts that get checked, including your number plate, (License plate) which must have a British standards label on it, the plate must be a certain size, letters must be a certain size etc. Why?? Safety?? Nope, so that the thousands of ANPR camera’s that are dotted around this little island can read them, just for police use though, yeah right.


Ugh, don't get me started on the plate-reading cameras. We have unmarked police cars that drive around here doing nothing but recording plates. They may be unmarked, but the camera on each corner as well as over the B-pillars are dead giveaways. Where and when I go about my lawful business (even if it is on a public roadway) is none of government or law enforcement's business.

Quote:
Anyway back to diesel, there is now a huge push on electric vehicles, constant ads on tv, electric vehicles pay no road tax & you get a government incentive payment to put towards the price of the vehicle. Several cities, and more are following suit, are charging us penalty fees for driving in them, again based on how polluting your vehicle is, and of course a 2.8 diesel is right up there!! Hybrid or electric vehicles are of course free. The plan is quite simple, try to make owning a diesel so expensive & inconvenient that everyone gives up on them. Petrol will of course follow quickly behind.


California and some other states are looking into similar schemes as well as per-mile road pricing. I'd like to know how motorists can legally be deprived of the use of roads that their taxes built, or be charged for driving on roads that were similarly-funded.

Quote:
The environmentalists are the biggest voice now in the UK, despite the use of some very shaky science at times. Political parties want to be seen to be “green” and as long as they are, they can push through whatever political doo doo they like whilst all the time protecting the businesses & industries that are actually polluting the crap out of us all. Oh and on top of all this, if the police see or suspect that your vehicle is modified they can pull you & give you a vehicle defect order, and you guessed it, fix it & take it to an MOT station to get inspected within 14 days or it’s illegal to use on the road. :roll: Apparently, so I’m told, this is a free country!! :ROTFL: :ROTFL: Freedom= :dead:


A friend of ours from Bulgaria summed it up best: "I escaped Communism twice: once when I left Bulgaria for the US in 1985, and again when I moved out of California and into Colorado in 2004."

Back to California for a moment: much of the way emissions testing was handled in the UK (and, eventually, Ireland, following on from the introduction of the NCT (MOT equivalent) in 2000) was based on how California had implemented its regulations in that regard. Not all of it, but both governments heavily studied the processes and procedures there as well as in other European countries. The one part that they practically copied wholesale was that there is no responsibility to the public in terms of the regulations that CARB passes - if, tomorrow, they decided that any vehicle over 10 years old was automatically considered to be a gross polluter (a term you never, EVER want to see on a vehicle's failed smog test in California), only people with cars 10 years old or newer could legally drive them, and there would be ZERO recourse.

I've fought with CARB in the past, and they are one of the worst government agencies to have to go up against. It is an extremely anti-car (and anti-motorist) organisation, with the legal power to force you into having to either destroy your vehicle or send it out of California at their whim. I honestly can't think of another agency that can do that, on the spot and in the way that they can, with virtually no chance of lodging (let alone winning) an appeal. They did manage to save the world, however, by forcing me to sell my 1985 Citroën CX25 GTi (itself sold new in California, and fully-meeting all California requirements of the time) to a person in Illinois, so at least they've done their job to the letter.

Oh, yes - this is also the agency that promised a year-by-year rolling emissions exemption for cars 25 years or older. That then became 30 years, followed by sticking the date at pre-1976 forever (though emissions equipment fitted since 1968 now has to remain on the vehicle and be functional, even if it's not being tested). I've also had them revise emissions targets on vehicles I've owned above what they were originally were, call for annual testing out of the blue on vehicles that are only supposed to be tested every other year, and send me letters telling me that they thought I somehow faked results on a vehicle's smog test because it passed too cleanly and I'd have to bring it in - at my expense - for inspection.

I'll stop there before I get into a rant about why moving out of California was one of the best things we ever did.

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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:30 pm 
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Anyone have some real numbers for gas vs diesel pollution? I know that individual auto diesel pollution is a joke when a Tesla is 40% coal powered in the US. But, I'm curious if diesel is actually worse, when you factor in transportation and everything else. I mean, more btu's has to offset a lot of the higher particulate, or nox, or whatever...

Diesel has less transportation costs, less trips to the gas station, less emissions from fires caused by volatile gasoline,
Less refining emmissions?!

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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:20 pm 
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I bet diesel has less refining emissions now since it is largely a byproduct of crude oil refinement for many products mainly gasoline and now with the low sulfur diesel requirement may have changes that , but it would be difficult to determine how much of refinement would be done anyway.

However gasoline engines can't run on vegetable oil (soybeans ) which doesn't require near as much nitrogen to grow as does corn for ethanol production and that may be made from natural gas. Ethanol production is a whole other discussion of waste and poor efficiency in production and use as is electricity at present day generation methods.

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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:57 pm 
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From everything I have read (and I read a lot, I'm 60% treehugger) diesel used to be cheaper to manufacture, but the scales may have tipped back towards gasoline. Low sulphur requirements increase the cost of diesel production whereas modern refining techniques have decreased the cost of gasoline production. There is also, to some degree, a capacity issue as in many cases diesel and home heating oil (and kerosene, etc.) come from the same places, and demand for heating oil peaks seasonally. Gasoline is a fairly consistent demand. That's a market issue (supply/demand) and not a production issue, but a factor in what you pay.

As far as electricity vs. liquid fuel in personal transportation, there is the matter of scale to consider. An ICE is a relatively inefficient way to derive energy from liquid fuel versus a fossil fuel powered generator. A *great* car might be 35% efficient, whereas most cars are down in the 20% range. A reasonably modern power plant is in the 40% range. Even though "burning fossil fuel" is "burning fossil fuel," doing it at scale not only nets us more usable energy from that conversion, but it also centralizes and stabilizes the waste output. Liquid fuel has distribution costs that are, essentially, *only* recoverable by motor vehicles, electricity runs virtually everything else on this planet. A Corvette with 20 gallons of fuel is only good for powering that Corvette. A Tesla with 85kwh of electricity can charge your phone or cool your house. Everyone has electricity at home. Very few have a gas pump. As a society we likely benefit more from an improved electrical grid than from more tanker trucks hustling more gas around.

There is at least some value to a universal power source, and right now the closest thing we have to that is electricity. Obviously there's a lot more complexity here, like battery disposal or engine oil disposal - my point is solely that the "where do you think electricity comes from" is demonstrably not the right question. Power plants net more energy from the same amount of fossil fuel, period.

I am an ex-resident of Los Angeles, and like Flash I remember when you couldn't see the sky. California has some pretty unique problems, and CARB works to solve them. There is clearly, obviously, real problems within CARB and I think you'd have to be pretty naïve to think it's immune from, um, outside influence, but at the same time CARB *is* doing some real science and there are people working very hard to keep the environment clean. The work they do is why other states and other countries leech their policies - nobody at CARB called New York or London and ordered them to follow suit. That went the other way around. I know people who work there and in fact spent some time inside myself - I hear the often fun and sometimes terrifying stories.

As for diesel vs. gasoline pollution, it's important to remember that it's not entirely a discussion of volume. Some pollutants can be controlled or mitigated and some can't, or can't as easily. Getting a diesel to approach your average PZEV car means cats, particulate filters, DEF, etc. That's all cost - cost for the manufacturer and cost for the consumer. Cost in dollars and cost in time. If you can't show a clear fuel savings to offset those costs, most consumers won't choose the alternative. That means the sales aren't there to fund the R&D, and diesel suffers just like the rotary... it's not that nobody wanted an RX, just that not enough people wanted one to generate the R&D money to fix the NOx or apex seals or oil consumption hassles. Sucks for people who love rotaries (like me) and people who love diesels (like me). People who don't mind adding oil or DEF.


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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:01 pm 
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But then you look at the efficiency numbers of gas vs diesel and wonder what are these people thinking.
Diesel engines are more fuel-efficient and have more low-end torque than similar-sized gasoline engines, and diesel fuel contains roughly 10% to 15% more energy than gasoline. So, diesel vehicles can often go about 20% to 35% farther on a gallon of fuel than their gasoline counterparts which equates to less fuel burned to achieve the same energy output.

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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:27 pm 
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Totally agree, and I don't pretend to understand the whys of the conversation. We all know that most consumers are fickle, and most consumers are lazy. And especially when it comes to cars, the number of people who actually care shrinks daily and the number of people who don't care and just want an appliance grows. Very few people these days are going to ask the question much less look into the reasons behind the answer. Too much Kim Kardashian to worry about I guess.


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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:37 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
But then you look at the efficiency numbers of gas vs diesel and wonder what are these people thinking.
Diesel engines are more fuel-efficient and have more low-end torque than similar-sized gasoline engines, and diesel fuel contains roughly 10% to 15% more energy than gasoline. So, diesel vehicles can often go about 20% to 35% farther on a gallon of fuel than their gasoline counterparts which equates to less fuel burned to achieve the same energy output.

I dont think its fair to only compare MPG advantanges of diesel vs gasoline.
Tonnage per mile per gallon is where diesel engines really set themselves apart.
Unfortunately that doesn't really apply to small diesels in passenger cars.
Even that person who uses their 3500 Duramax as a grocery getter isn't getting nearly the full value of what that engine can provide.
Nowhere is this most evident than with diesel locomotives.
If you've ever paid attention to a passing train, you can see that they are not exactly "clean."
But they more than make up for it with the work they perform and the services they provide.
Long haul truckers are almost as good. The only advatage of a truck is door to door service.

Many Americans want one vehicle that can do everything. Which usually means a large SUV or 4-door truck that can take the kids to school, haul the boat/camper, and support the family buisness (and serve as a mobile billboard). But if the truck isn't being used to perform any actual work then much of that diesel efficiency value is wasted.

The Big 3 haven't slowed down production of any of their diesel trucks.
GM is planning a smaller Duramax for the 1500 trucks and has the 2.8L in the Colorado.
The Wrangler will be getting the same 3.0 diesel that the Ram 1500 gets.
And apparently Ford has a diesel for their F150 although I've never seen one on the street.

There will still be "tuners" for these trucks just like there will always be hot rodders.
They'll just conduct their activites in a more discrete fashion.

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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:41 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
There will still be "tuners" for these trucks just like there will always be hot rodders.
They'll just conduct their activities in a more discrete fashion.

If they know what is good for them, they better be discrete or their pocketbooks will suffer greatly!
and Canada has no EPA. :juggle:

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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:42 pm 
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the sameguy:
I also am under the impression that it was further refining process that made diesel more expensive than gas rather than less expensive than gas which I think was around 2005 or little before. The US also exports quite a bit of diesel .
Everyone:
Personally about half the miles I drive my CRD i am pulling a boat or trailer or hunting in areas that require 4wd that I couldn't access in a 4wd pickup. Often these places are over 100 miles from my residence.

I also like the idea torque etc of electric vehicles but as stated are not practical in many instances. I am also ordering solar panels and Sol-Ark hybrid inverter within the next month and would love to use my own solar energy to charge an electric vehicle but that will take a few years most likely. I also like efficiency in general and have done things like ground source heat pump, super insulate home etc.

I do think we should strive to be "greener" but it will take economic pressure or benefits to make big changes. It still bugs me that China and some other countries pollute even more than we do and nothing really to do about it except unenforceable agreements.

I can get even more upset at the continued deficit spending of the government if I let myself think about it but I reserve that for near voting time :banghead: .

So many problems , so little time.

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 Post subject: Re: EPA Shutting down Diesel Turners and issuing hefty fines
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:27 am 
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I've owned electric cars, and I think they are wonderful. In my instance, the daily requirement was about 50 miles netting 1000 miles a month. The cost of that was $8 in electricity. No fluid changes of any type. No drivetrain maintenance of any type. With regenerative braking, actual brake pad wear after 30,000 miles was zero. The only thing I had to do in 30,000 miles was replace the tires and plug it in every night. I include an extra $6/mo on my monthly electricity bill to ensure my energy mix is 100% renewable (solar/wind/water) ( https://www.smud.org/en/Going-Green/Get ... esidential ), so my 1000 miles was literally zero emissions.

In 2019, I love the relative freedom of liquid fuel, and I love the sound my track car makes, but for commuting electric cars are exactly right and I have high hopes for battery and charging technologies and they will eventually make more sense for more applications. I would 100% be behind a future where my daily driving was electric, and I could save the ICEs for sport & fun.

(In case you're wondering, the reason I no longer have an electric car is because I don't like making payments on things, and I don't have $40,000 to throw at a car. It costs me far less to keep old stuff running. :) If I was one of those "need a new car" types - as most people are - things would be different.)


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