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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:24 pm 
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Looking at your video, my vote is on the Rear Main Seal. I see no real evidence of the head gasket leaking oil.
Rear main leaking and throwing the oil all over the place while running. Oil puddle in bottom of transmission housing is a dead give-a-way!
Is your CCV system still factory and connected to the turbo inlet boot?
or
Are you running the EHM mode? (elephant hose mode)

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:07 pm 
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TKB4 wrote:
On another note , where did you end up attaching to firewall side of engine to pull it ?


I bolted a loop of chain to two bungs on the valve cover, and then hooked into that. I figured two M8 bolts to spread that load would be safe. It worked great, no issues.

Quote:
Just another general idea. Its possible using a temporary electric oil pump might pressurize at least part of the system enough to see evidence of a big leak and you could even hook up starter and turn engine over some to aide in this . The glow plugs and or injectors could also be pulled to lessen work on the starter if nothing shows initially from head gasket.


I'm trying to concoct something like this. Problem is the starter bolts through the rear cover to the transmission, so no transmission = nothing to bolt to. If this was an old Ford, I could just run the oil pump with a drill. :D

Maybe nuts are sufficient to secure the starter, but obviously I don't want to damage that cover. I think with injectors removed that should minimize the stress and allow the starter to spin faster and build more pressure. The potential issue is that the problem really only shows up with hot oil - it never drips when cold. Maybe using something like a 0w-20 will result in thinner oil at a low temperature and replicate the issue?


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:19 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Looking at your video, my vote is on the Rear Main Seal. I see no real evidence of the head gasket leaking oil.
Rear main leaking and throwing the oil all over the place while running. Oil puddle in bottom of transmission housing is a dead give-a-way!


Here is The Fear: The RMS is NEW. It has less than 100 miles on it. When I first saw the leak I was 100% convinced it was the RMS, so I had that replaced. I think it'd be crazy if a new RMS leaked the same or worse as an old one... unless there is some serious crank walk or something killing the seal. Even still:

1) I've never had a car leak oil this fast from a bad RMS - it's a STREAM of oil. There should be no pressure behind the RMS, and I'm 90% sure a leak of this magnitude would need pressure. That giant puddle of oil is after less than 100 miles of driving!

2) A substantial amount of the leak comes from outside the bellhousing, way up past the middle. I find it hard to believe that oil would come out of the RMS, and get flung *so hard* and in *such volume* that it would get past the joint between the bellhousing and the adapter plate in order to leak down the outside of the bellhousing. You can see clean areas of the adapter - those areas are where I wiped oil away to try and find the leak in the car. Those areas are *really* high up.

3) Cars I've had with a bad RMS - even a really bad one - never leak externally except at the bottom where oil drips & accumulates. To leak outside the bellhousing is... what??

Quote:
Is your CCV system still factory and connected to the turbo inlet boot?
or
Are you running the EHM mode? (elephant hose mode)


Yes and No..... it's 100% stock. And all new, too. Prior to the leak down test I was considering the possibility of seriously wrecked bottom end and a pressurized crankcase and *that* was forcing oil out past the RMS at volume, but the leak down test results were clean. That scenario seems unlikely.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:17 pm 
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Today I removed the flex plate, drive hub, and the adapter plate. There was a real oil slick between the plate and the machined face of the block, somewhat reinforcing the concept that the leak is happening behind and above the plate. That said, I can't see any real source for that to happen save the head gasket. There are two plugs that look like freeze plugs back there, but IIRC at least one of them seals off an oil passage. There was some crud accumulation there, but hard to say whether it's leaking. Nothing specifically about it suggests leaking.

Despite being new and $50, I also removed the rear main seal. It looked great, nothing about it screamed failure. In fact, in other RMSs you can often see an oil accumulation along the bottom and that was not present. But, the RMS on this engine is real weird so I don't know what to expect.

I will post some pictures of this later on or tomorrow, once my phone has finished uploading them. Maybe someone will see something I didn't.

Now having done this work myself, I am at a loss to explain all the surface damage to the rear crank carrier. It's weird. Because there is that damage and the RMS is suspect, I want to remove that carrier and inspect. I'm curious if anyone has done that work... The FSM doesn't address removing the carrier in and of itself, only in the context of removing the crank shaft. To do that, it says to remove the head. I can't see any reason why I couldn't just remove the carrier now and the head later... but maybe someone knows otherwise?

OH! One thing... MAYBE. Before second guessing myself, I started to remove the carrier and I think one or maybe two of the bolts securing were VERY loose. I was using an impact wrench, but you can definitely tell when one bolt is less tight than another. I'm pretty sure.

Some pictures:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AqwvoBt9ZBp2gpkhuKj ... A?e=72Yod8

Maybe two relevant ones:

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:08 pm 
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I've decided to look for a replacement rear carrier... not sure how that's gonna go, but I'll try.

While perusing ID Parts I noticed they are selling main bearing housings, noting "high mileage CRDs have wear that cause crank walk." Can't help but wonder if crank walk could be the cause of the leak through the RMS. Once the engine is torn down some more, I will check thrust and see what that looks like.

In the meantime, I went ahead and ordered the "timing belt tool kit" so I can pull off the timing belt "the right way." Probably doesn't matter for disassembly, but since the FSM calls for it I'm gonna follow the instructions so I don't have doubt when it goes back together. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:56 pm 
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I didn't think about the way starter mounts though it wouldn't matter if I was doing it since I have a spare non functioning transmission that I could most to engine after out :-)r

Following along with interest. Sounds like you have a source for the crank carrier and most other parts you might need .

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:41 am 
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The whole thing is off to a rough start.. I guess UPS had a train derailment (!!!) and my shipment from ID Parts is either lost or delayed. Now I'm into next week before I can even get the head to the machine shop. I should have started collecting this stuff a long time ago. Boo.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:00 pm 
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i never replaced rear main seal on CRD engine but when i worked in a shop on big trucks we use to clean everything properly and apply some loctite 518 gasket maker outside of the seal ring that would definately help sealing that are.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:37 pm 
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The Liberty's RMS is a weird multipart thing... never seen anything like it. But, I suppose, it also fits into weird carrier that I've never seen before either. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:34 pm 
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thesameguy wrote:
The Liberty's RMS is a weird multipart thing... never seen anything like it. But, I suppose, it also fits into weird carrier that I've never seen before either. :)

Lots of weird and unique things about these anomalies of the automobile world! :seuss:
But we still love'em most of the time! :ROTFL:

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:49 pm 
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I've owned (and still own) a lot of weird cars, so I'm ready. The Jeep shares a driveway with things like a FIero GT, a couple Saabs, a couple Merkur XR4Tis. I've previously had fun stuff like Alfas and Fiats so I do feel a certain kinship to the Italian motor. :)

I am hoping tonight I can get at least the timing belt off, if not the head off. I still need to find a replacement rear bearing carrier... admittedly I haven't looked very hard, but I'm still a bit nervous about finding one. Hopefully that works out.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:25 pm 
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Got back to it last night. Man oh man are there are lot of doodads on this engine. It's like working on an old TBI 350!

Some random things:

I did not understand what the "crankshaft locking tool did" and the FSM is USELESS when it comes to figuring it out. After some googling, I found these guys: http://colorado4wheel.com/content/KJ_TB.html which got me going. The "crank shaft lock tool" DOESN'T LOCK THE CRANKSHAFT. It locks the flex plate. If you have removed the flex plate so you can put the engine on a stand, the tool is useless. Derp?

So I installed the cam locks (which actually lock the cams...) and removed the timing belt. Got the exhaust side taken all apart which was remarkably easy. I had previously soaked all the manifold hardware in penetrating oil which helped make quick work, but one of the manifold studs did break off in the head. It's going to the machine shop anyway, so they can get that out. :)

I may have screwed up getting the inner timing cover off. Another little glitch in the FSM, it tells you to remove the sprocket from the injection pump and then later goes on to tell you that you're doing this so you don't have to mess with the timing belt when removing the pump. Well, I'm NOT removing the pump, and there is no reason to remove that sprocket. Hopefully there is no "injection pump timing" as there is on an old mechanically injected diesel. I'm assuming not, but what do I know? :)

Time is short this week, but tonight or tomorrow I should be able to get to the head off, then over to the machine shop.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:43 pm 
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thesameguy wrote:
Hopefully there is no "injection pump timing" as there is on an old mechanically injected diesel. I'm assuming not, but what do I know?

There are mixed opinions on this issue.
It will run either way.
Those supporting the YES IT MATTERS option argue the issue of how well it runs, due to harmonic hydraulic pressure waves in the common rail, and their effects on the injection events.
Those supporting the DOESN'T MATTER option, view the issue as similar to the fuel injector calibration codes, and shrug at the small amount of difference it could make, and whether it's even measurable in real life usage.
I suggest constructing your own opinion based on what satisfies your own sensibility and intended usage.

"Just saying..."

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:53 pm 
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From an older post:
Quote:
There have been endless posts on the timing of the CP3 pump and in one very intensive discussion where I believe Keith from GDE proved that timing does make a difference....the pump is a three cylinder pump with 120 degrees between pump actions being used on a 4 cylinder engine which has 90 degree cycles
The CP3 shaft is keyed to the drive gear and indexed such that timing can be set to coordinate the pressure waves of the pumping pulses with injection events

CP3 timing becomes important by delivering optimum pressure in the fuel rail when the injectors fire. Since it is no big deal to time it and relative easy to perform, most advise to just do it, it only takes a few extra minutes when installing the belt. It certainly cannot hurt anything and it might actually help a little.

I always questioned why would VM go to the trouble to put index and timing marks if they did not have a purpose?

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:58 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
There have been endless posts on the timing of the CP3 pump and in one very intensive discussion where I believe Keith from GDE proved that timing does make a difference....the pump is a three cylinder pump with 120 degrees between pump actions being used on a 4 cylinder engine which has 90 degree cycles The CP3 shaft is keyed to the drive gear and indexed such that timing can be set to coordinate the pressure waves of the pumping pulses with injection events


That makes great sense - thank you!

Quote:
I always questioned why would VM go to the trouble to put index and timing marks if they did not have a purpose?


As I go deeper into this motor, I have a lot of questions about why VM did what VM did. :)

In my last post I wasn't thinking about "the camifold" so I didn't realize how close I was to pulling the head off. Rockers looked good to me:

Image

TBH, they seem pretty stout... I'm surprised one could break! The only thing that gave me pause is one of the #2 exhaust rockers did not come out intact... the "sleeve" separated and stayed inside the head. It was obviously easy to remove, but I do wonder why it came out in two pieces whereas the others came out in one. Maybe for no reason! :)

The head was a bit of a bear to get off - those head bolts are no joke and my only 11mm socket is 3/8" … I was constantly worried it was going to shatter, but it held together. Underside looks great:

Image

The head gasket looked great, no sign of issues. Piston tops and cylinder walls all looked great as well. Seems like a healthy motor so far.

Three of the exhaust manifold studs are VERY fond of their current location, so they are soaking in penetrating oil now. Hopefully they are more interested in coming out this evening. Once I get them out, the head can go to the shop. (If I leave them, they will charge me to remove them, so...)

Sure does look like the source of the leak continued to be the RMS even after it was replaced. Now I need to determine if it's that rear carrier's fault, or I have a crank walk problem. I can't imagine the top end of a high mileage motor look this good if the bottom end is trash, so that gives me hope. OTOH, if it's not something like that I am gonna be a little upset I paid someone a grand to fix a problem that didn't actually get fixed.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:49 pm 
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I hope you have noted that I neither indicated which side of the pump timing issue I stand, nor did I tell you what you "should do" on this issue, further, you may have noticed that my statement of both sides of the issue are precisely accurate.

There is one correction I feel should be pointed out though.
Quote:
WWDiesel wrote:I always questioned why would VM go to the trouble to put index and timing marks if they did not have a purpose?


VMM's statement on this issue is that the CRD pump drive pulley is a carryover part from Bosch pump versions previous to CRD when mechanical timing was current. They didn't manufacture a new part because they didn't need to. The index mark on the pulley simply has no current function. But, as noted before, the arguments exist, and as WWDiesel points out, setting the timing takes virtually no measurable extra effort at all when you are replacing the belt anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:10 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
I hope you have noted that I neither indicated which side of the pump timing issue I stand, nor did I tell you what you "should do" on this issue, further, you may have noticed that my statement of both sides of the issue are precisely accurate.


Absolutely. My opinion is generally that if a manufacturer procedure exists and there isn't a reason not to follow it, that it should be followed. Since one exists here, and it's [apparently] not too difficult, I'll give it a go. Especially in this case, where my familiarity with common rail diesel is basically nil, I'm not interested in coloring outside the lines. Gasoline powered turbo four cylinder? I haven't seen those lines in years. :D

I managed to get two more studs out of the head, leaving one broken one and one that I sufficiently mangled as to make it impossible to remove. It's a very impressive stud, I'll tell you that. :) I went ahead and took it to the machine shop, along with the new exhaust valves and replacement valve stem seals. I printed out the cylinder head section of the FSM to be sure they had all the specs, so I think the next bit is in motion.

I will probably go ahead and put in the order for the head set so it's here when the head gets back. I'm ordering stuff in bits and pieces as I keep finding little ancillary parts I should replace and, financially, a $1500 parts order scares me. :)

Still need to find that rear bearing carrier. I'm not sure where else to look. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:26 pm 
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[quote="thesameguy]Still need to find that rear bearing carrier. I'm not sure where else to look. :([/quote]
There is a guy in Lithuania named Ed that has all sorts of VM & other engine stuff. I am not sure what name he trades under. His english is not the best but the translate programs work. I got to him via ebay a few years ago when I needed a #1 injector (with sensor) for a 425 VM diesel that was in an export XJ jeep. If you can track him down he would be your best chance next to VM.

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:23 am 
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You might also inquire (PM) with CaptainDean, Mountainman, etc. Who have fully reconstructed short-blocks of these engines, (from 2 or more cores) and probably have miscellaneous extra parts potentially available.

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:40 pm 
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About the ream main seal...

Pay carefull attention to how everything comes apart. Thurst washers have to go back in exactly the way they came out.
Hub adapter is the first part to be removed.
I suspect your rear carrier is still ok. But remove it so you can inspect the rear main bearing.
When installing the carrier, put some sealer on the inside lip to prevent leaks.
I have not done this job myself. Just reviewing whats been posted before.

My RMS has had a small leak since like forever.
Installing a Provent and switching to 15w-40 has noticably reduced the leak.
I also dont fill the oil all the way to the FULL mark. Just about halfway between FULL and ADD.

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