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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:39 am 
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thesameguy wrote:
So is the engine going in the Falcon. :) I doubt the security on the Chrysler ECM is much more complicated than Ford's. :)

Please keep us appraised on this. I think you may be surprised. The Fords generally are more aftermarket-friendly as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:41 am 
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Well, I dunno about that... SMEC was one of the most tuner-friendly ECM platforms ever!

But, I'm sticking with gasoline in the Falcon. For me, a big aspect of using a Duratec in the Falcon is that it's a commodity motor and cheap to operate. The VM 2.8L definitely doesn't fit that bill. Plus, I already have everything I need to install the Duratec save a Miata transmission. :)

The Jeep motor is going back in the Jeep!


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:58 pm 
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A brief pause while the machine shop does it's thing, but I got some little stuff done...

Oil pan off....

Image

Oil is a bit sludgy, but it's been sitting in a cold garage for a month, and it's surely moisture contaminated what with no head on there. :) But nothing floating around in there, so that's good.

One thing I notice is that the gasket that was on the engine is a thin plasticky thing, whereas the replacement gasket from ID Parts is a pretty substantial piece of metal with molded in rubber bits. Not sure what that means, but it's a thing. :)

I also went ahead and removed the [problematic] rear carrier from the motor to see what that looks like. That was eye-opening.

Removing it is easy - take the five bolts out, then thread two back into the unused holes and use them to press out the carrier. Given this crazy contraption of a motor, it's bonkers to me that VM did something so elegant rather than engineering another $300 tool for us to buy. :P

Here is what the motor looks like with the carrier out:

Image

An interesting detail - It looks like there is a return from the oil gallery down the side of the of the block:

Image

That passage goes right through the carrier:

Image

and then right through the crank as well!

Image

I have no idea what the purpose of such a thing is, but if it is what I think it is, that would DEFINITELY explain why you'd suffer a high pressure leak if the RMS wasn't exactly right. Also, you may notice an o-ring seal on the carrier that would prevent leaks from this pathway to the outside world. If that o-ring were to go, then it'd be leak city too.

Knowing what I know now, I would have FULLY instructed the shop that did the RMS to:

1. Replace that o-ring
2. Install the carrier bolts with blue Loctite

… and I bet I wouldn't be here now. #annoyed

Next I gotta get my $$$ together and buy a head set. Fortunately, money grows on trees here, so no worries.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:29 pm 
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That appears to be a oil supply feed to the rear main bearing.
Maybe it’s a redundancy?
Or maybe it also feeds the #4 rod bearing.

Also, what is the disc/plate bolted to the inside of the crank? Is it the reluctor for the crank sensor?

Can you please post some pictures of the carrier that shows the rear main bearing, thrust bearings, and maybe how the RMS fits in there?
I believe the rear main bearing is a two-piece.

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:47 pm 
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It definitely could be a feed for the rear bearing... what's weird though is that as the crankshaft rotates, that feed will go in and out of alignment so it's not a constant supply of oil. Very strange design!

I will double-check, but yeah, I think that big doodad is the reluctor for the CPS - I didn't make a specific note of it, but that was my impression.

I'm not sure I can get a good picture of the rear bearing... the balance shaft assembly (I think that's what it is!) is in the way, and I'm hesitant to remove it. I want to remove it so I can replace the oil jet O-rings, but I'm hesitant. :)

I don't trust my RMS - it's a multi-piece thing and I don't have full confidence the mechanic installed it correctly. He seemed like a good guy, but since I walked away with ongoing leaks I can't trust him. I'm not even sure how I can guarantee I will put it back together right, because I have zero idea how it should go. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:00 pm 
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thesameguy wrote:
It definitely could be a feed for the rear bearing... what's weird though is that as the crankshaft rotates, that feed will go in and out of alignment so it's not a constant supply of oil. Very strange design!
thats how all crank bearings work. What you’re looking at is the rear #5 main journal. So yeah, it likely feeds the #4 rod.
I will double-check, but yeah, I think that big doodad is the reluctor for the CPS - I didn't make a specific note of it, but that was my impression.

I'm not sure I can get a good picture of the rear bearing... the balance shaft assembly (I think that's what it is!) is in the way, and I'm hesitant to remove it. I want to remove it so I can replace the oil jet O-rings, but I'm hesitant. :)
the rear carrier holds the bearing for the rear crank journal. The oil jets are probably just fine and won’t need new o rings. If they leak it will just go into the pan and as long as there is good oil pressure oil will spray the bottom of the pistons
I don't trust my RMS - it's a multi-piece thing and I don't have full confidence the mechanic installed it correctly. He seemed like a good guy, but since I walked away with ongoing leaks I can't trust him. I'm not even sure how I can guarantee I will put it back together right, because I have zero idea how it should go. :(

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Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 5 volt bosch glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, JBA upper arms, 235-85-16 tires.
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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:18 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
What you’re looking at is the rear #5 main journal. So yeah, it likely feeds the #4 rod … the rear carrier holds the bearing for the rear crank journal.


I think I see what you're saying... it's an odd design, though, and there are some mechanical elements I don't fully understand. Not that I particularly need to, but... it's odd. :)

Quote:
The oil jets are probably just fine and won’t need new o rings. If they leak it will just go into the pan and as long as there is good oil pressure oil will spray the bottom of the pistons


Yeah, but I hate not taking care of things when I have access. That's exactly how I ended up here. Not taking the opportunity to replace $5 worth of O-rings seems like a major waste of an opportunity.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:29 pm 
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Yes, as opposed to main caps, the tunnel bore block is definitely odd.
The only other time I’ve seen that was a small 3-cyl generator.

If you were to pull the crank, the balance shafts would come off and the pins holding the center carriers pulled out. The crank along with the center bearing carriers get pulled out from the rear of the block.

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Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 5 volt bosch glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, JBA upper arms, 235-85-16 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:38 pm 
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If the Main bearing has a grove in it like a lot of main bearings do, oil would be supplied to the bearing all the times. Very common design.
Just must make dang sure the holes are aligned perfectly!

Would No.5 (Crankshaft Main Bearing) on this diagram be the oil galley you are seeing?

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:46 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Would No.5 (Crankshaft Main Bearing) on this diagram be the oil galley you are seeing?


Yep, I think so. After Flash suggested how it worked, I went back to look at the block and sure enough, that's exactly right. I did not take "rear bearing carrier" literally enough. Seems like replacing the 1st and 5th caps with a block tunnel shortens the overall length of the engine. Probably good here, since that engine bay was probably designed to be 3 cylinders deep, not four. :)

This definitely explains the nature of that RMS, and explains why the VM 2.8 doesn't have RMS leaks like conventional engines. You've got full oil pressure right up to the edge of the engine. Neat?

However, with this information I'm a little concerned about the state of the #5 bearing … if that carrier was indeed not securely tightened there could wear on it or the bearing. Theoretically I suppose it really can't move around much, but it seems like it should be checked - I'm just not sure how to check tolerances here... I don't think plastigauge would work. Any ideas? Probably the FSM has a clue.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:10 pm 
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In case anyone is curious, here is what the #5 area of the motor looks like. You can see the other side of the reluctor wheel as well as the balance shaft drive.

Image

I will get some additional pictures of the carrier this evening.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:34 pm 
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Some more nitty gritty stuff... :)

Here's the outward-facing side of the carrier:

Image

Something I hadn't noticed before, but flange on that left-side bolt is chewed up. It reaffirms the concept that *that* bolt was bouncing around in there and that's what chewed up the carrier. What's a mystery is whether my shop put it back in and didn't mention anything, or if someone else had been in there before. Who knows?

The rear of the carrier:

Image

And here are the two halves of the bearing:

Image

Image

I really have no idea how one would test clearances there, and I'm guessing it means that just replacing the carrier would be ill-advised. I will check in the FSM and see what's what there.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:42 pm 
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To check the clearances, you would need a outside micrometer to measure the crank journal and a inside micrometer to measure the bearing.

That bearing looks pretty good though. Its shiny with no grooves and cant see the copper layer.
I'd run with it myself.

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Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 5 volt bosch glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, JBA upper arms, 235-85-16 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:35 pm 
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Bearing looks good based on pictures, don't see any wear marks or copper babbitt showing through the outer coating.
You could always buy a set of bearings and just replace just the rear one if you suspect to much wear.
Inside an outside mics would tell the true story.

Your picture clearly shows that oil grove in the bearing I was talking about in my earlier post.
Due to it's design, it supplies oil lubrication between the bearing and the crankshaft journal all the time and actually creates an "oil wedge" between the bearing and the journal for the crankshaft to ride on.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:03 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
To check the clearances, you would need a outside micrometer to measure the crank journal and a inside micrometer to measure the bearing.

That bearing looks pretty good though. Its shiny with no grooves and cant see the copper layer.
I'd run with it myself.


Agreed, and agreed. I really prefer to use plastigauge over a micrometer, but yeah, I don't see a way to do that here. Nothing to take apart and squish with. :)

The reason I'm interested in replacing it is due to irregularities on the seal surface - you can sort of see them here:

Image

But the seal is coated, and I think I can smooth out the burrs sufficiently that it won't be a problem. I will order in a new seal just to check... and I need to find a part number for that o-ring.


Last edited by thesameguy on Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:05 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Bearing looks good based on pictures, don't see any wear marks or copper babbitt showing through the outer coating.
You could always buy a set of bearings and just replace just the rear one if you suspect to much wear.
Inside an outside mics would tell the true story.

Your picture clearly shows that oil grove in the bearing I was talking about in my earlier post.
Due to it's design, it supplies oil lubrication between the bearing and the crankshaft journal all the time and actually creates an "oil wedge" between the bearing and the journal for the crankshaft to ride on.


Totally. Once I looked at the carrier in daylight it all made sense. Good learning experience!


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:52 pm 
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So....

This:

https://www.idparts.com/rear-main-seal- ... -7676.html

indicates there are *two* O-rings that should get replaced … but I can see only one. Anyone have any idea where the other one is?

Image

#36 is the o-ring I am aware of... I don't see a second.


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:27 pm 
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Do these help any? :)

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:44 pm 
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Yes, definitely! It's interesting that there appears to a part in my diagram, but it's not labeled as it is in yours... #05066763AA. Now I need to go back and look at the motor AGAIN. I'm not sure I have that part!


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 Post subject: Re: Well, here I go... pulling the motor.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:58 pm 
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Looking at the pictures of the rear carrier and back if the crank, I don’t see a place for the smaller o-ring. Unless it fits in the flywheel adapter hub?

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Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 5 volt bosch glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, JBA upper arms, 235-85-16 tires.
Still love it.


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