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 Post subject: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:44 pm 
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I have the injectors out of the beast and valve cover off. So far so good, but the tips of these injectors look dirty. Is there a recommended DIY cleaning procedure or leave them alone? Is it worth having them professionally cleaned?
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Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:23 am 
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How many miles on them?

I don't know about a DYI but after about 175K miles I took my Cummins injectors to a shop to rebuild while I had the head off. They clean & check everything (tolerances, etc). Was piece of mind for not a lot of money.

But that is an entirely different beast. I would think the injectors on these motors to be a lot more finicky?

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1998 XJ 4.0L, stock with 103,XXX miles

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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:04 am 
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145,000 miles and I have no reason to believe they have been out before. I did talk to the local diesel shop and the guy said if they haven't been giving me any problems (and they have not), that it isn't worth having them checked. He said the soot on the tips is normal and would be back soon anyway. He said run an additive in the fuel for lubricity and drive on.

I still might lightly clean the tips of these with carb cleaner or sea foam. No brushing, just soak and spray.

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2005 KJ CRD ~150K
V6 Airbox, Samco Hoses, Provent
Weeks 1&2, Thrush Glasspack
Facet Fuel Pump, Secondary Fuel Filter
ARPs, 188 Degree Thermostat
GDE Eco Tune Full Torque
OME 1.5", JBA A-Arms and Top Plates
245/75/16s, Spidertrax


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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:25 am 
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A fuel additive for lubricity at every fill up? Or just occasionally with a cleaner? I've never thought about that for these engines since ULSD came about around the same time so I "assumed" these pumps were built for it no?

I run a concoction of 2 cycle oil and Power Service in my 1992 12 valve Cummins but as stated above, an entirely different beast as that pump/injector tolerates a lot more contamination & particles.

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2005 Liberty CRD, with 101,XXX miles. New rockers, exhaust valves, Provent, EGR block & butterfly delete & V6 air box

1998 XJ 4.0L, stock with 103,XXX miles

First Jeep: 1962 Willys CJ-3B


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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:11 pm 
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I run a little 2 stroke oil in my fuel with an ounce or two of optilube summer blend. This was found to be the best lubricity per dollar product in an independent test.

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Future; rear bumper, true tracs, tank fuel pump, webasto heater


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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:42 pm 
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I pour in a combined mix of a few ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil mixed with Diesel Kleen Power Service along with a quart of Walmart 2-cycle non-synthetic oil at every fill up. Been doing this now for many years to add lubricity to the low sulfur diesel fuel to help protect the expensive injection pumps and injectors on both my diesels. :D

"Oil is the cheapest insurance you will ever buy"!

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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:10 pm 
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krb wrote:
A fuel additive for lubricity at every fill up? Or just occasionally with a cleaner? I've never thought about that for these engines since ULSD came about around the same time so I "assumed" these pumps were built for it no?


I dont think the guy was speaking specifically about our injectors, just diesel injectors in general. His recommendation was every fill up and he mentioned Howe's additives, which I have seen around.

_________________
2005 KJ CRD ~150K
V6 Airbox, Samco Hoses, Provent
Weeks 1&2, Thrush Glasspack
Facet Fuel Pump, Secondary Fuel Filter
ARPs, 188 Degree Thermostat
GDE Eco Tune Full Torque
OME 1.5", JBA A-Arms and Top Plates
245/75/16s, Spidertrax


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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:31 pm 
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Here in Australia most of our diesel comes from either Singapore or India. In the fall as temperatures drop The composition of diesel changes. The diesel out of India is junk. If I use it in my XJ diesel (VM425) the injector pump starts to leak at most of the seals & Orings. Change to a brand that is the Singapore diesel & after a tank all the leaks are gone.
There has been a lot of work done on the use of oil in diesel. An ASME report years ago found the best additive was ATF. I used to run my Mercedes 300D on a diesel/ATF blend when ever I could get clean used ATF for free. Mid summer it ran on straight ATF. The 300D did over 2 million miles without any rebuild. In the end the trans & suspension had completely gone. It became a parts car for my other newer 300D. Why cant VM build engines as good ?

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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:58 pm 
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layback40 wrote:
Here in Australia most of our diesel comes from either Singapore or India. In the fall as temperatures drop The composition of diesel changes. The diesel out of India is junk. If I use it in my XJ diesel (VM425) the injector pump starts to leak at most of the seals & Orings. Change to a brand that is the Singapore diesel & after a tank all the leaks are gone.
There has been a lot of work done on the use of oil in diesel. An ASME report years ago found the best additive was ATF. I used to run my Mercedes 300D on a diesel/ATF blend when ever I could get clean used ATF for free. Mid summer it ran on straight ATF. The 300D did over 2 million miles without any rebuild. In the end the trans & suspension had completely gone. It became a parts car for my other newer 300D. Why cant VM build engines as good ?

I too started out running a mix of ATF in the diesel fuel until I became friends with guy who races Cummins engines in drag races and he advised me to switch over to non-synthetic 2-cycle oil. :wink:

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05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Sasquatch BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
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SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox
GM11 bld. fan/NAPA HDclutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount


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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:21 am 
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Hmm, guess I could start adding too, even though I thought these engines were built for ULSD. Didn't realize a lot of folks already were.

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2005 Liberty CRD, with 101,XXX miles. New rockers, exhaust valves, Provent, EGR block & butterfly delete & V6 air box

1998 XJ 4.0L, stock with 103,XXX miles

First Jeep: 1962 Willys CJ-3B


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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:02 pm 
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krb wrote:
Hmm, guess I could start adding too, even though I thought these engines were built for ULSD. Didn't realize a lot of folks already were.


Our injection system required better lubricity than what you get at the pump most of the time !

ASTM D 975 Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel in the U.S. requires that diesel fuel meet a minimum lubricity of 520 microns HFRR Max. ( Fuel sampling done in 2002 result show U.S. lubricity between 351 ... 648)

Bosch common rail fuel system required 460 micron HHFR Max.


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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:08 pm 
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I was a fan of ATF, but now mostly use a dollop of Marvel Mystery Oil. It works well for the sewing machines, mix it with acetone or lacquer thinners for an excellent penetrating oil, and smells good. Good general purpose light lubricant for all kinds of applications, and <$20 gallon at Walmart.
My standard practice on the TDI when changing fuel filters is to fill the filter with Diesel Purge. Did the same with the CRD just recently. Best to do it on a low tank of fuel and let it circulate for a few miles.

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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:21 am 
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PZKW108 wrote:
krb wrote:
Hmm, guess I could start adding too, even though I thought these engines were built for ULSD. Didn't realize a lot of folks already were.

Our injection system required better lubricity than what you get at the pump most of the time !
ASTM D 975 Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel in the U.S. requires that diesel fuel meet a minimum lubricity of 520 microns HFRR Max. ( Fuel sampling done in 2002 result show U.S. lubricity between 351 ... 648)
Bosch common rail fuel system required 460 micron HHFR Max.

Excellent info, thanks for posting the numbers. Going to save this one! :wink:

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Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Sasquatch BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox
GM11 bld. fan/NAPA HDclutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount


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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:17 pm 
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layback40 wrote:
Here in Australia most of our diesel comes from either Singapore or India. In the fall as temperatures drop The composition of diesel changes. The diesel out of India is junk. If I use it in my XJ diesel (VM425) the injector pump starts to leak at most of the seals & Orings. Change to a brand that is the Singapore diesel & after a tank all the leaks are gone.
There has been a lot of work done on the use of oil in diesel. An ASME report years ago found the best additive was ATF. I used to run my Mercedes 300D on a diesel/ATF blend when ever I could get clean used ATF for free. Mid summer it ran on straight ATF. The 300D did over 2 million miles without any rebuild. In the end the trans & suspension had completely gone. It became a parts car for my other newer 300D. Why cant VM build engines as good ?

Well in all fairness that engine wasn’t nearly as powerful or efficient as our VM.

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2005 crd limited, tinted, OME lift, falken wildpeak 245/75-16, Suncoast, Transgo, Chevy fan+clutch, 195° Stat, Derale tranny cooler, Provent, Stage 2 tune, EGRdelete, Cat delete, Viscous heater delete, V6 airbox, Tow package, tow brakes, switchblade key, DIY roof rack, Front bumper,
Future; rear bumper, true tracs, tank fuel pump, webasto heater


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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:20 pm 
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https://www.jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTechni ... e_test.pdf

This test is what led me to start using optilube summer blend. Very interesting data. Watch out for that marvel mystery oil! It made lubricity worse!

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2005 crd limited, tinted, OME lift, falken wildpeak 245/75-16, Suncoast, Transgo, Chevy fan+clutch, 195° Stat, Derale tranny cooler, Provent, Stage 2 tune, EGRdelete, Cat delete, Viscous heater delete, V6 airbox, Tow package, tow brakes, switchblade key, DIY roof rack, Front bumper,
Future; rear bumper, true tracs, tank fuel pump, webasto heater


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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:01 pm 
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The initial question was about injector cleaning. Which is what MMO is all about, a cleaner engine/fuel system. Our CP3 fuel pump from all reports is a durable unit, piezo electric injectors likewise.
Keeping them clean IMO is the priority. Those who use a 2 micron filtration setup can speak to this approach.
A quick skim of the test results, IIRC, is that the diesel used met the lubricity specs.

So the question becomes, do you need 2 seperate treatments, a cleaner, and then a lube? At the same time or seperately? From the MMO test results, it would appear that it is an excellent cleaner, wear is increased.
Possibly best to be followed by a lube type additive, eg ATF. Do you need additives every tank?, possibly not.

That's my theory anyway, which is worth what you paid for it. :roll:

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Last edited by Rrusse11 on Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:31 pm 
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lets go to original question, injector cleaning. the best send it to Bosch so they can do their job. if you add any of this fuel injector cleaners after 100k miles you're looking for trouble. I tried to clean my injectors back in 2014 with howes meaner cleaner that forced the debris into injector 1 and jammed the control valve so injector wouldn't shut off almost blew up the engine.


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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:00 pm 
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There can be no doubt that complete dissassembly and a trip through an ultrasonic cleaner with an appropriate blend of chemistry is the best of all possible worlds for servicing. I don't know if you can get new nozzles for the CRD injectors. Standard procedure when modding the Mk4 ALH VW diesel motor.

rankom, you make a good case for frequent fuel filter changes, and a 2 micron system. Would regular use of
cleaners have made a difference?

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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:19 pm 
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Rrusse11 wrote:
There can be no doubt that complete dissassembly and a trip through an ultrasonic cleaner with an appropriate blend of chemistry is the best of all possible worlds for servicing. I don't know if you can get new nozzles for the CRD injectors. Standard procedure when modding the Mk4 ALH VW diesel motor.

rankom, you make a good case for frequent fuel filter changes, and a 2 micron system. Would regular use of
cleaners have made a difference?




yes since then I installed 2mic filter and I don't have animore issues also I did back then almost all the important upgrades, regarding fuel additives I say if you use them late in vehicle life they might dislodge fuel debris and try to force them out and they will get stuck in injectors (in my case)


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 Post subject: Re: Injector Cleaning?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:34 pm 
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Good discussion. Just to close out my original post - I soaked the injector tips in seafoam and gently brushed them clean with a plastic bristled brush. Turns out this level of cleaning is almost necessary in order to get the new crush washers on the injectors before installation.

To continue the discussion on additives - any thoughts on using the non-synthetic 2 cycle oil like pictured below? I acquired a case of this stuff for free. I could feed it to the beast if it isn't stupid to do so. It's pretty old, but maybe that is good.
Image

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2005 KJ CRD ~150K
V6 Airbox, Samco Hoses, Provent
Weeks 1&2, Thrush Glasspack
Facet Fuel Pump, Secondary Fuel Filter
ARPs, 188 Degree Thermostat
GDE Eco Tune Full Torque
OME 1.5", JBA A-Arms and Top Plates
245/75/16s, Spidertrax


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